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  #276  
Old 03-22-2012, 05:32 PM
JeannaT JeannaT is offline
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Originally Posted by Dr.Fessel View Post
He states they always get away and then goes after him to make sure he did not get away.

Why else did he follow him?

He followed him to make sure he did not get away. He armed himself, he got out of his truck to make sure he did not get away.

He had no evidence he had done anything but he was going to make sure he did not get away.

There was evidence of a scuffle.

Evidence points to CZ going after the kid to make sure he did not get away.
Yes. Which is legal.
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  #277  
Old 03-22-2012, 05:33 PM
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Especially May 4th, 1970.
I mean no dishonor to the past and the lessons sadly learned, especially since I am old enough to remember it but to compare this recent event to that is really not relevant.
Yes, the past is always with us but we must take this event as it is and hopefully focus some good from it. A young man's life was stolen from him and wrongfully so. Perhaps new legislation, new awareness, and new education can bring some tribute to young Mr Martin. He did not need to die, he should not have died, and we cannot blind ourselves with the past to avoid fixing whatever is wrong now.
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Old 03-22-2012, 05:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Dr.Fessel View Post
He states they always get away and then goes after him to make sure he did not get away.

Why else did he follow him?

He followed him to make sure he did not get away. He armed himself, he got out of his truck to make sure he did not get away.

He had no evidence he had done anything but he was going to make sure he did not get away.

There was evidence of a scuffle.

Evidence points to CZ going after the kid to make sure he did not get away.
I agree the evidence points to GZ following Trayvon. But is that in itself an act of aggression? He did ask Trayvon "what are you doing here" according to the girlfriend of Trayvon's, right? So he followed him and asked him a question. Is that enough for it to be an act of aggression?
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  #279  
Old 03-22-2012, 05:34 PM
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Lets say they arrest him. But when he comes at trial there is no enough evidence to prove anything and he is let go. Is that going to make anyone happy?
Not at all, but I can guarantee it will be the catalyst for changes to the stand your ground law as written now. It would spur an outcry until legislators tighten that law up til it makes some sort of sense and is no longer a license to manufacture a confrontation, kill a person in cold blood and get away with it claiming self defense.

My friend said to me yesterday, anyone looking to off their spouse should simply vacation in Florida, instigate a fight/confrontation, shoot said spouse and claim self defense. Sadly, I believe she may be right. It may indeed be just that easy to get away with murder in the state of Florida.

Maybe that is Trayvon's legacy. I hope that GZ is tried and that he is held accountable. But if he is not then the failure of the system to address this case will only spearhead the push for change.
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Old 03-22-2012, 05:35 PM
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Zimmerman is very well protected by Fl self-defense law (despite what people who wrote it now say). If he is considered an aggressor, he would not be protected-but for that they would have to prove he is the one that started the fight. There are no witnesses as far as I can tell that can prove it one way or the other. And authorities don't seem to think that they can consider him following Trayvon an act of aggression in itself. So what exactly should be done in this situation?
It takes two people to have a fight. The minute GZ disobeyed directions from LE to hold his position until LE arrived he took matters into his own hands and essentially he caused the incident. How do you go from a perfectly innocent person walking to his family's condo into a planned assault by this young man? He was on he phone with a witness who said he was trying to get away from this man. GZ carried a gun and pursued him.

Maybe someone should have warned this so called "aggressive teen" not to bring a bottle of ice tea to a gun fight.

Plus GZ was not in his home. He was in what is referred to in gated communities as a common area. GZ wasn't even on his own property so how does the castle law even a consideration. How many times do police officers tell citizens not to take the law into your own hands? Call LE and let them handle it. GZ chose not to do that with deadly results. jmo
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  #281  
Old 03-22-2012, 05:35 PM
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Originally Posted by JeannaT View Post
Yes. Which is legal.
and then, while making sure he did not get away, GZ, in a scuffle, proceeded to shoot and kill him. Which apparently is also legal.

Hence, our outrage.
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  #282  
Old 03-22-2012, 05:36 PM
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Originally Posted by jjenny View Post
I agree the evidence points to GZ following Trayvon. But is that in itself an act of aggression? He did ask Trayvong "what are you doing here" according to the girlfriend of Trayvon's, right? So he followed him and asked him a question. Is that enough for it to be an act of aggression?
If GZ is FOLLOWING/PURSUING Trayvon....that makes GZ the aggressor. He had NO business chasing him down. He only did that to make sure that this one didn't get away.
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  #283  
Old 03-22-2012, 05:36 PM
Horace Finklestein Horace Finklestein is offline
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Originally Posted by gitana1 View Post
He was arrested and charged but underwent a diversion program that allowed for the ultimate dismissal of those charges upon completion of the program. Thus, he was not innocent, nor did they lack evidence, but he satisfied he DA that he had reformed enough to dismiss the charges. Usually diversion is offered when the DA feels the crime was an isolated incident.



I read that he was initially handcuffed after he was asked to drop his gun. IMO, as soon as they saw a black person on the ground, he was un-cuffed.



LE does have a choice in most situations. If there is clear evidence at the scene that it was self-defense, like corroborating witnesses or a fully armed dead guy, accomplice confession, then they do not have to arrest. Remember the case of the gal in OK who shot dead the man trying to break into her home with a knife? He was found draped over a couch she had tried to use to barricade her door. He had a weapon. She had called 911 and explained what was happening. Hence, no arrest and I applaud them for that.

This case is vastly different. Suspect was unarmed, killer was asked NOT to follow the victim and ignored that request, some witnesses ID'd the victim as the one who was crying for help or being straddled and there is B. IMO, he should have been arrested at the scene.



On the first thread, someone posted the audio and info re the 46 calls. Apparently, many of the calls were all were about "suspicious" black people. Here is some audio: http://www.clickorlando.com/news/RAW...z/-/index.html



IMO, because Trayvon was black. As you can see, there are many people who just assume a black young man must be aggressive.



He's shot and rolls over or is pushed over.



They didn't want to outline that the victim was outweighed by double by the killer who shot him.
There is a witness corroborating that, and GZ had injuries as well. It's not true that there is no evidence GZ was attacked imo.
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  #284  
Old 03-22-2012, 05:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jjenny View Post
Unless they can do a voice analysis none of this is convincing to me. None of the witnesses on 911 call could say which one was screaming.
If Zimmerman was the one screaming he could have stopped because there was no longer a fight.
Also a possibility during the wrestling the gun might have been grabbed and GZ was screaming for help.They do need to do a voice analysis so there is no doubt who is screaming.Also some people are saying he was not cuffed and he was.He also was interrogated 2 times but I see where people are saying he was just sent home.

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  #285  
Old 03-22-2012, 05:37 PM
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Originally Posted by LambChop View Post
It takes two people to have a fight. The minute GZ disobeyed directions from LE to hold his position until LE arrived he took matters into his own hands and essentially he caused the incident. How do you go from a perfectly innocent person walking to his family's condo into a planned assault by this young man? He was on he phone with a witness who said he was trying to get away from this man. GZ carried a gun and pursued him.

Maybe someone should have warned this so called "aggressive teen" not to bring a bottle of ice tea to a gun fight.

Plus GZ was not in his home. He was in what is referred to in gated communities as a common area. GZ wasn't even on his own property so how does the castle law even a consideration. How many times do police officers tell citizens not to take the law into your own hands? Call LE and let them handle it. GZ chose not to do that with deadly results. jmo
GZ doesn't have to be in his home for him to be covered under FL self-defense law. The law covers anyone who is where he or she has a legal right to be.
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  #286  
Old 03-22-2012, 05:37 PM
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Originally Posted by tlcox View Post
Not at all, but I can guarantee it will be the catalyst for changes to the stand your ground law as written now. It would spur an outcry until legislators tighten that law up til it makes some sort of sense and is no longer a license to manufacture a confrontation, kill a person in cold blood and get away with it claiming self defense.

My friend said to me yesterday, anyone looking to off their spouse should simply vacation in Florida, instigate a fight/confrontation, shoot said spouse and claim self defense. Sadly, I believe she may be right. It may indeed be just that easy to get away with murder in the state of Florida.

Maybe that is Trayvon's legacy. I hope that GZ is tried and that he is held accountable. But if he is not then the failure of the system to address this case will only spearhead the push for change.
And then if you miss you could always bring your spouse on a cruise. jmo
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  #287  
Old 03-22-2012, 05:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jjenny View Post
I agree the evidence points to GZ following Trayvon. But is that in itself an act of aggression? He did ask Trayvon "what are you doing here" according to the girlfriend of Trayvon's, right? So he followed him and asked him a question. Is that enough for it to be an act of aggression?
it is when he has a gun.
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  #288  
Old 03-22-2012, 05:39 PM
jjenny jjenny is offline
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Originally Posted by Marshmallow View Post
it is when he has a gun.
Was the gun visible?
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  #289  
Old 03-22-2012, 05:39 PM
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Originally Posted by JeannaT View Post
I certainly think he was suspected, and followed because he was Black.

I don't think that's why he was killed. I believe he was killed because GZ was in fact in real danger of serious injury or death.

And that's it, in a nutshell. For all the discussions of whether it's right to follow someone, what the reasons were the GZ suspected Trayvon of wrongdoing, all those things are extraneous details IMHO.

The nutshell. Did GZ have reason to believe he was in serious danger at the moment he pulled his gun and shot Trayvon? I say it's likely.
Not if CZ put his hands on him to keep him from getting away.

It has to be a reasonable fear. Injury from wrestling match is not reasonable fear for your life.
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Old 03-22-2012, 05:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Horace Finklestein View Post
There is a witness corroborating that, and GZ had injuries as well. It's not true that there is no evidence GZ was attacked imo.
if Gz tried, as I'm guessing, to stop this young man by palcing physical force upon him that makes Mr Martin a victim and not an attacker. By his own actions Mr Zimmerman became first an attacker then a killer.
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  #291  
Old 03-22-2012, 05:42 PM
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Originally Posted by tlcox View Post
Not at all, but I can guarantee it will be the catalyst for changes to the stand your ground law as written now. It would spur an outcry until legislators tighten that law up til it makes some sort of sense and is no longer a license to manufacture a confrontation, kill a person in cold blood and get away with it claiming self defense.

My friend said to me yesterday, anyone looking to off their spouse should simply vacation in Florida, instigate a fight/confrontation, shoot said spouse and claim self defense. Sadly, I believe she may be right. It may indeed be just that easy to get away with murder in the state of Florida.

Maybe that is Trayvon's legacy. I hope that GZ is tried and that he is held accountable. But if he is not then the failure of the system to address this case will only spearhead the push for change.
Lets not give unhappy spouses any ideas.
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  #292  
Old 03-22-2012, 05:42 PM
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And then if you miss you could always bring your spouse on a cruise. jmo
lol, thank you, I needed a bit of levity!
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  #293  
Old 03-22-2012, 05:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Dr.Fessel View Post
Not if CZ put his hands on him to keep him from getting away.

It has to be a reasonable fear. Injury from wrestling match is not reasonable fear for your life.
If GZ did start the physical altercations that would make him an aggressor. But there are no witnesses who can provide evidence of that.
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  #294  
Old 03-22-2012, 05:44 PM
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Trayvon's death would never of happened with the same outrage we are seeing now would have occurred when this Law first was introduces.It is one thing to be able to protect your home and family in someone is breaking into your home.I am shocked more people having been killed in the streets of FL.How easy is it there to get a permit to carry?In NJ very hard most people can not get one Thankfully.
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  #295  
Old 03-22-2012, 05:44 PM
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Originally Posted by JeannaT View Post
How much are the protesters lives worth, and others who happen to be in proximity when riots break out?

Trayvon's life is worth as much as anyone's but he's gone now. There's no bringing him back. It would be a horrid tragedy to have MORE deaths follow his.

Prayers for peace. I'm waiting to hear what happens in the GJ.
Sorry, but I don't understand all this nail-biting, hand-wringing, and talk of "pending" riots just because people are protesting and rightfully upset, IMO, about a serious injustice.

Where were the histrionics during the numerous Occupy protests?

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Old 03-22-2012, 05:45 PM
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Originally Posted by jjenny View Post
Was the gun visible?

we do not know, no one knows. but we do know that a strange man was following Mr Martin, that a strange man accosted Mr Martin in the attempt to stop him, and all we know after that is that Mr Martin was killed by this person who was following and attempting to stop Mr Martin.

Mr Zimmerman was in no danger when he called 911 from his car. If there was any danger to Mr Zimmerman then he willingly put himself into the position by not waiting as requested by the 911 operator and instead stalking and accosting young Mr Martin who, justifiably, must have been frightened by this stranger who was honed in on him and putting him (Mr Martin) in danger. Mr Zimmerman was the agressor the moment he got out of his car and went after Mr Martin. Mr Zimmerman was never a victim.
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Old 03-22-2012, 05:46 PM
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Originally Posted by jjenny View Post
Unless they can do a voice analysis none of this is convincing to me. None of the witnesses on 911 call could say which one was screaming.
If Zimmerman was the one screaming he could have stopped because there was no longer a fight.
Tray's own MOTHER listened to the tape and she ID'd her son's voice.

I had 3 children, each was about 16 months apart in age. I could tell each one's cough, sniffle, sneeze, cry, etc apart. A mother knows her child's voice and even their sounds.

I also don't believe that the consistently high pitch of the voice screaming for help would be possible to come from a man who is almost 30 years old.
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  #298  
Old 03-22-2012, 05:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Marshmallow View Post
we do not know, no one knows. but we do know that a strange man was following Mr Martin, that a strange man accosted Mr Martin in the attempt to stop him, and all we know after that is that Mr Martin was killed by this person who was following and attempting to stop Mr Martin.

Mr Zimmerman was in no danger when he called 911 from his car. If there was any danger to Mr Zimmerman then he willingly put himself into the position by not waiting as requested by the 911 operator and instead stalking and accosting young Mr Martin who, justifiably, must have been frightened by this stranger who was honed in on him and putting him (Mr Martin) in danger. Mr Zimmerman was the agressor the moment he got out of his car and went after Mr Martin. Mr Zimmerman was never a victim.
What police say is that following someone is not illegal. Thus that is not an act of aggression in itself.
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Old 03-22-2012, 05:47 PM
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Tray's own MOTHER listened to the tape and she ID'd her son's voice.

I had 3 children, each was about 16 months apart in age. I could tell each one's cough, sniffle, sneeze, cry, etc apart. A mother knows her child's voice and even their sounds.

I also don't believe that the consistently high pitch of the voice screaming for help would be possible to come from a man who is almost 30 years old.
GZ doesn't have a deep voice based on 911 calls.
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Old 03-22-2012, 05:48 PM
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If GZ did start the physical altercations that would make him an aggressor. But there are no witnesses who can provide evidence of that.
he became the agressor the moment he got out of his car and went after Mr Martin and took the law into his own hands. And as it turns out he ended up killing an innocent young man.
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