FL - 17-yo Teen Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #4

[belle3]

Originally Posted by songline

It does not make him guilty.
but if he gave GZ any attitude IF IF IF
That would only escalate things.
Thaen it is no longer him just runing home.

the escalation of things could certainly have happened, and TM could certainly have said something or even done something to escalate the situation, but gz went into a situation that was neither unlawful or in the process of any altercation happening and his gun was discharged resulting inthe death of a child. That is a homicide. Whats left to be determined is the type of homicide. This killing, in my reviewing of the law does not fall under stand your ground, the castle, doctrine, or justifiable homicide.

[Ironhorse]

Originally Posted by belle3

Well If that happened, according to the law, verbal threats are not cause to believe that you are about to face serious bodily harm or death. So Zimmermans response to the lip service would not have been in proportion. Therefore it is murder. allimo

True a verbal threat in itself doesn't constitute the use of deadly force... However if it's used in combination with an aggressive move it might very well be cause enough... A lot depends upon the totality of all the circumstances. One doesn't have to wait until a weapon is produced to exercise deadly force... If a person shouting at you saying their going to kill you and they act as if they've got a weapon in their pocket and go to reach for it. You have ever reason to believe they're going to make good on that threat.

[songline]

Originally Posted by LambChop

On the other hand if you have a child who is respectful and never has given you a problem, plus they have provided the child with a phone in case of an emergency, why would they think he was in danger if they did not hear from him. They assumed he went out with his uncle and they went to bed. I think it is fairly common that a child who has never gotten into trouble, who acts in a responsible manner would be trusted to call them if he was having a problem. The fact TM made a call to 911 clearly shows he felt threatened.

Reports so far show TM to have been very responsible from a very early age so I imagine his father assumed he was with someone he trusted. By morning he was concerned. At some point you let your child have more and more responsibility for their behavior once they've reached that age before becoming an adult. You don't wait until their 18 to prepare them to become an adult.

I find it interesting that focus would be on the parents of the victim and questioning their actions. They have already proven their son had done nothing wrong. jmo

Good children are also checked on... Before I go to sleep I like to know where my kids are. I do not assume anything.

AGAIN: Why not let the police look at phone records???? WHY

[rossva]

""I had gone out for dinner," says Tracy, "and when I got home, Trayvon wasn't there. I tried calling his cell phone several times, and it went straight to voicemail. I wasn't that worried, because he had been spending time with my 20-year-old nephew who was a responsible young man. There wasn't a panic that he wasn't at home. I figured that they had gone to the movies, because they had said they might. So I laid down, thinking they would show up later."

Once the calls were not returned, and Trayvon did not return home, Tracy said the next morning he started to get worried

Read more: http://globalgrind.com/node/828905#ixzz1q2zTHxtf

http://globalgrind.com/news/trayvon-...-hours-details


There ya go, quote and link, so I guess it was true.

Originally Posted by Velouria

Where is the link stating that Trayvon's father did not look for him? (Hint: it doesn't exist because it ain't true)

[Belinda]

Originally Posted by rossva

That would be the attack that started the altercation. For all we know, Martin could have knocked Zimmerman down with a strike, and wrapped his hands around Zimmerman's throat. I have never said tha Martin punched Zimmerman once, causing Zimmerman to shoot him.


Orlando's channel 9 did a computer reenactment of what could have happened. It is here:

http://www.wftv.com/videos/news/tray...imation/vGfcS/

Then where is the hospital injury report if he was almost strangled to death? Oh, that's right, there isn't one.

[songline]

Originally Posted by Adrienne37

Trayvon giving some "lip service" to Zimmerman means that it's alright to pull out his gun and brutally murder him? Again, just more and more ways to blame the victim when the blame clearly lies on the shoulders of not only Zimmerman but the Sanford Police Department as well.

Absolutely not, I don't even believe that neighborhood watchmen should carry a gun.
But it does mean that instead of running home like his GF told him to do he just escalated the situation.

This case is a mess.

[Adrienne37]

Originally Posted by songline

Absolutely not, I don't even believe that neighborhood watchmen should carry a gun.
But it does mean that instead of running home like his GF told him to do he just escalated the situation.

This case is a mess.

But why? He had just as much right to "stand his ground" as Zimmerman did.

[Velouria]

Originally Posted by rossva

""I had gone out for dinner," says Tracy, "and when I got home, Trayvon wasn't there. I tried calling his cell phone several times, and it went straight to voicemail. I wasn't that worried, because he had been spending time with my 20-year-old nephew who was a responsible young man. There wasn't a panic that he wasn't at home. I figured that they had gone to the movies, because they had said they might. So I laid down, thinking they would show up later."

Once the calls were not returned, and Trayvon did not return home, Tracy said the next morning he started to get worried

Read more: http://globalgrind.com/node/828905#ixzz1q2zTHxtf

http://globalgrind.com/news/trayvon-...-hours-details


There ya go, quote and link, so I guess it was true.

The next morning, when he woke up, Tracy realized that Trayvon had not returned home. "I started making calls, and I reached my nephew," Martin says. "He said he hadn't seen Trayvon. Then I really started getting worried. So I called the Sheriff's department to file a missing persons report. I let them know it hadn't been 24 hours, but it was unusual for Trayvon not to return home."

http://www.people.com/people/article...581404,00.html

And I guess you accidentally left out the part where the dad fell asleep. But then that wouldn't give the appearance that he just didn't care enough to look.

[songline]

Originally Posted by belle3

the escalation of things could certainly have happened, and TM could certainly have said something or even done something to escalate the situation, but gz went into a situation that was neither unlawful or in the process of any altercation happening and his gun was discharged resulting inthe death of a child. That is a homicide. Whats left to be determined is the type of homicide. This killing, in my reviewing of the law does not fall under stand your ground, the castle, doctrine, or justifiable homicide.

I agree.
We do not shoot people.
IF IF IF
GZ had to shoot for some reason.
He could have shot the boy in the leg so he can’t escape.
Even when one has to shoot, they need to be accountable.

[belle3]

Originally Posted by Ironhorse

True a verbal threat in itself doesn't constitute the use of deadly force... However if it's used in combination with an aggressive move it might very well be cause enough... A lot depends upon the totality of all the circumstances. One doesn't have to wait until a weapon is produced to exercise deadly force... If a person shouting at you saying their going to kill you and they act as if they've got a weapon in their pocket and go to reach for it. You have ever reason to believe they're going to make good on that threat.

But there is no proof that TM was yelling im going to kill you! The only thing we know is that someone was yelling help. and in the situation it can be said it was either one of them. But gz was possibly defending himself from fists from a teenager with a loaded firearm That is still disproportionate. If he was unsure of what tm was carrying then his duty was to call the police and not enter into a confrontation that led to the death of a child.

[LambChop]

Originally Posted by rossva

""I had gone out for dinner," says Tracy, "and when I got home, Trayvon wasn't there. I tried calling his cell phone several times, and it went straight to voicemail. I wasn't that worried, because he had been spending time with my 20-year-old nephew who was a responsible young man. There wasn't a panic that he wasn't at home. I figured that they had gone to the movies, because they had said they might. So I laid down, thinking they would show up later."

Once the calls were not returned, and Trayvon did not return home, Tracy said the next morning he started to get worried

Read more: http://globalgrind.com/node/828905#ixzz1q2zTHxtf

http://globalgrind.com/news/trayvon-...-hours-details


There ya go, quote and link, so I guess it was true.

Thanks for that link, Rossva. And had he been to the movies TM's father would have expected his son's phone would have been turned off. jmo

[annalia]

Originally Posted by songline

Good children are also checked on... Before I go to sleep I like to know where my kids are. I do not assume anything.

AGAIN: Why not let the police look at phone records???? WHY

my bolding

Hasn't that been disputed by the parents? Haven't others disputed what SPD was trying to claim?

OK so according to you, the victim's parents don't meet the proper standards, does that make Tray's murder ok? What exact relation does that have to do with Tray being gunned down? Does them not acting as some think they were supposed to act, or they should ahev realized faster that something was wrong, are they suspect?

I read that article and honestly I don't see where anything bad regarding Tray's father, nothing. Can you point it out?

[songline]

Originally Posted by rossva

""I had gone out for dinner," says Tracy, "and when I got home, Trayvon wasn't there. I tried calling his cell phone several times, and it went straight to voicemail. I wasn't that worried, because he had been spending time with my 20-year-old nephew who was a responsible young man. There wasn't a panic that he wasn't at home. I figured that they had gone to the movies, because they had said they might. So I laid down, thinking they would show up later."

Once the calls were not returned, and Trayvon did not return home, Tracy said the next morning he started to get worried

Read more: http://globalgrind.com/node/828905#ixzz1q2zTHxtf

http://globalgrind.com/news/trayvon-...-hours-details


There ya go, quote and link, so I guess it was true.

The next morning he started to worry...
OK that would not happen in my house...
I would be up by 3AM looking for my kids.

[rossva]

1) We do not know what medical reports do or do not exist.

2) Zimmerman used deadly force in self defense to prevent this from happening.

3) My post says "Martin could have ". I did not state as fact this is what happened.

Originally Posted by Belinda

Then where is the hospital injury report if he was almost strangled to death? Oh, that's right, there isn't one.

[songline]

Originally Posted by Adrienne37

But why? He had just as much right to "stand his ground" as Zimmerman did.

Just one difference. while they both had a right to a public street.
WHEN YOU think someone is followiing you, you act with caution,
Why not get your self home? Like GF told him to?

[belle3]

Originally Posted by songline

Absolutely not, I don't even believe that neighborhood watchmen should carry a gun.
But it does mean that instead of running home like his GF told him to do he just escalated the situation.

This case is a mess.

Wasnt tm on his way home? I dont think we can assume that he wasnt on his way back home when the confrontation happened. Maybe he was trying to lose gz. Who knows. Thats why thorough police investigations are necessary. This PD really has sooooooo much explaining to do!

[songline]

Originally Posted by annalia

my bolding

Hasn't that been disputed by the parents? Haven't others disputed what SPD was trying to claim?

OK so according to you, the victim's parents don't meet the proper standards, does that make Tray's murder ok? What exact relation does that have to do with Tray being gunned down? Does them not acting as some think they were supposed to act, or they should ahev realized faster that something was wrong, are they suspect?

I read that article and honestly I don't see where anything bad regarding Tray's father, nothing. Can you point it out?

The reply was not about being gunned down.
It was about WHY NOT LET THE POLICE ACCESS THE PHONE?
My reply was about-what if it wont make the parent look good?


Nobody should be gunned down.
I don’t even like neighborhood watch men to have a gun.

[rossva]

Nope. IMO, The fact he fell asleep would bolster the claim he just didn't care enough to look.

But, you asked for a quote and a link that showed Tracy Martin did not look for Trayvon Martin. I provided both. You didn't ask for excuses why he didn't.


I want to be clear here. I was answering your request for the quote and link. Whether or not Tracy Martin did or did not look for is son is totally irrelevant to this case. I am not blaming Tracy Martin in any way, shape or form for the death of his son.

Originally Posted by Velouria

http://www.people.com/people/article...581404,00.html

And I guess you accidentally left out the part where the dad fell asleep. But then that wouldn't give the appearance that he just didn't care enough to look.

[LambChop]

Originally Posted by belle3

But there is no proof that TM was yelling im going to kill you! The only thing we know is that someone was yelling help. and in the situation it can be said it was either one of them. But gz was possibly defending himself from fists from a teenager with a loaded firearm That is still disproportionate. If he was unsure of what tm was carrying then his duty was to call the police and not enter into a confrontation that led to the death of a child.

Plus the fact that as a full grown adult who grew up in a household with a judge and a clerk of the court he was fully aware this was a law enforcement matter. Having been through LE training for four months and a member of their local Neighborhood Watch program GZ knew his duty ended with calling 911 and all he was required to do was wait for LE to arrive at the scene. He ignored all that training and put everyone's safety aside, including his own to promote his own agenda.

GZ is the only one who identified TM as suspicious and he accelerated the confrontation by following. No just cause for him to do so because he knew better. His justification for following was "they always get away" as he admitted on the 911 tape. He had already decided TM was guilty in his mind. In GZ's mind he had already concluded that TM was a suspect of a crime he had no evidence was ever committed. jmo

[annalia]

Originally Posted by songline

Jus one difference. while they both had a right to a public street.
WHEN YOU think someone is followiing you, you act with caution,
Why not get your self home? Like GF told him to?

Walking faster doesn't fall under acting with caution?

Funny, earlier on Trayvon was accussed of acting suspiciouly becasue he DID run away the first time when GZ was still in his car, then he was accused of acting suspiciosuly for putting up his hoodie, now he's being accused for not getting away from this adult stalker fast enough.

The victim here escalated the situation because he didn't run fast enough to get away from his chaser. I can honestly say that I've never heard that on any case that I've followed.

[songline]

Originally Posted by annalia

Walking faster doesn't fall under acting with caution?

Funny, earlier on Trayvon was accussed of acting suspiciouly becasue he DID run away the first time when GZ was still in his car, then he was accused of acting suspiciosuly for putting up his hoodie, now he's being accused for not getting away from this adult stalker fast enough.

The victim here escalated the situation because he didn't run fast enough to get away from his chaser. I can honestly say that I've never heard that on any case that I've followed.

In one of the links you will find that TM wal coming closer to GZ - maybe just to see who was following him?.
So while TM was walking faster some of the time. It seems it was not the entire story.
I wish he did listen to his GF.

[Ironhorse]

Originally Posted by belle3

But there is no proof that TM was yelling im going to kill you! The only thing we know is that someone was yelling help. and in the situation it can be said it was either one of them. But gz was possibly defending himself from fists from a teenager with a loaded firearm That is still disproportionate. If he was unsure of what tm was carrying then his duty was to call the police and not enter into a confrontation that led to the death of a child.

True, there is no proof Mr. Martin ever said anything of the sort at least nothing that's ever been made public. I was speaking of verbal threats in general and that of Deadly force. A verbal threat in itself doesn't constitute the use of deadly force. However, if it's used in combination with an act of aggression or implied it might be justify the use of deadly force. It all depends upon the totality of the circumstances.

The courts have recognized that a fist blow well placed can be as deadly as if a weapon had been used. So, disproportionate as it might seem the courts have ruled the use of a weapon in self defense when being struck by a fist can be justified...

See, it all really hinges on the totality of circumstances as to whether something is justified by the reasonable person clause... And since we are not privy to all the info surrounding this Zimmerman/Martin incident we can't say one way or the other.

[annalia]

So now that some have established that Tray's parents ( who we shouldn't need to remind anyone are the victims here) don't meet the proper standards when it comes to a murdered child, (and I sincerely hope and pray that none of ever have to walk in their shoes,) what real facts of that night does it change?

We've all seen the fact that Tray was a good kid, as opposed to GZ's documented past aggression issues, so because Tray's parents didn't act as some believe they should have, that now makes Tray not a good kid?

JMHO

[annalia]

Originally Posted by songline

In one of the links you will find that TM wal coming closer to GZ - maybe just to see who was following him?.
So while TM was walking faster some of the time. It seems it was not the entire story.
I wish he did listen to his GF.

Trayvon came closer when GZ was in the car, when GZ was first following him his car. It's not a stretch to see that he was probably trying to figure out who it was that was following him.

And again, it was GZ's paranoia that said Tray was checking him out as if Tray was up to no good. Is GZ not smart enough to even consider that if you're the one following a kid that they might take a closer look to see who you are? And then if they don't recognize this stranger following you in their car, they might get scared and run off???

JMHO

[LambChop]

Originally Posted by rossva

Nope. IMO, The fact he fell asleep would bolster the claim he just didn't care enough to look.

But, you asked for a quote and a link that showed Tracy Martin did not look for Trayvon Martin. I provided both. You didn't ask for excuses why he didn't.


I want to be clear here. I was answering your request for the quote and link. Whether or not Tracy Martin did or did not look for is son is totally irrelevant to this case. I am not blaming Tracy Martin in any way, shape or form for the death of his son.

Why would he not care if he thought his son went to the movies with a relative. He did try to call and got no answer which you would expect if his son was in a movie theater. Considerate people turn their phones off and this seems to be the type of family in which TM was raised. Respectful and considerate. If you trust your child why would you worry. TM had a phone, if he were in trouble his Dad may have felt Trayvon would have called him.

This was not a child who was looking for trouble which shows his parents DID care about him. Why are we being so critical of the parents? I don't get it. jmo