17 yo Trayvon Martin Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #9

[Yoda]

He was close to home, would they let him change there? And if he did could he have washed down in the sink, or is that a big no no? Trying to make sense of why it appears there is no blood on him or his clothes in the video (other then his pants being on fire from lying)

[tehcloser]

Originally Posted by JeannaT

It would be hard to imagine the back seat of a police cruiser would be littered with pieces of foliage and twigs and dirt, consistent with lying backward in a fight on the wet ground. The officers on the scene noticed, and documented that's what the back of his jacket looked like when he first was looking at him. To have that NOT be true, and to find out that the back of his jacket was in fact clean when the officer first interviewed him but then became consistent with that description in the back of a police cruiser pretty much defies logic, IMHO.

cross-contamination.............any good lawyer would get it thrown out.

[HiHater]

Originally Posted by Yoda

He was close to home, would they let him change there? And if he did could he have washed down in the sink, or is that a big no no? Trying to make sense of why it appears there is no blood on him or his clothes in the video (other then his pants being on fire from lying)

That would be very irresponsible. To let him go home and change clothes would be contamination. IMO

[Dr.Fessel]

Originally Posted by uvamerica

You mean chief Lee is back on duty ? I hadn't heard that, it seems they are just going back to their old ways again. I'm not sure how the Sanford community will feel about that, I don't think its gonna be good.

No, I was just wondering if he was. He said he was stepping down because people felt he was a hindrance or something to the investigation of the Martin case. They don't have the case anymore.

[JeannaT]

Originally Posted by LolaMoon08

That is why I have been so crazy about pictures! Where are pictures of Zimmerman's injuries? Yes, mostly because I wanted to see for myself what injuries he had... but also, we all know all evidence is supposed to be photographed. If they did not photograph Zimmerman's injuries at the scene, at the station, and on later dates... they did a great disservice to Zimmerman and his self defense claim.

Well, I can see it. I can clearly see a bloody wound on the back of his head, (he's been cleaned up by EMTs, it wouldn't be flowing down his neck) and I can see that his nose is red. I think pics that were taken the next day and the following several days would much more clearly show a broken nose and progression of bruising that follows that. Those things don't show up in the first few minutes. Again, it would be interesting to see the EMT notes.

[daisy7]

Originally Posted by rossva

We do not know if the clothing in the video is the clothing Zimmerman wore at the time of the shooting.


The Orlando Sentinel also tries today to dispel some "Trayvon rumors" with some facts. It reports, for example, that rumors about key evidence not being collected are not true, according to Sanford police:


"They took [Zimmerman's] clothing as well as Trayvon's and packaged it for crime-lab analysis. A spokeswoman for Special Prosecutor Angela Corey would not disclose Tuesday where the clothing is now, but she wrote in an email that the Florida Department of Law Enforcement 'is assisting with the processing of physical evidence.' "


http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/...-martins-death

If LE took the clothing at the scene, then he wouldn't be wearing a shirt and jacket. And if they had some some clothes to provide him, how likely is it that they would be able to give him the same clothing that GZ reportedly was wearing that night?

If they would release the dash cams, we would be able to confirm what he was wearing when LE first arrived.

[HiHater]

Sorry I have a million tabs open...is it true that only the shirt was collected---but not the jacket? TIA

[LolaMoon08]

Originally Posted by Yoda

He was close to home, would they let him change there? And if he did could he have washed down in the sink, or is that a big no no? Trying to make sense of why it appears there is no blood on him or his clothes in the video (other then his pants being on fire from lying)

If they let him go home and change his clothes... I am going to be livid! I don't think they did though? The jacket matches the 911 calls.

[csziggy]

Originally Posted by m00c0w

People don't swell/bruise after blood stops circulating. I'm not sure what he'd expect to see with a superficial look-see.

Bruises can appear post mortem:

How long will the post-mortem take?

Every effort is made to conduct the post-mortem quickly, and in most cases the coroner will authorise the release of the body after one day. In some cases where a more detailed examination is required it can take up to three days. Mortuary staff are mindful and sensitive to cultural issues arising from post-mortems, but there may be delays for practical reasons, such as the need to wait for bruising to appear which can take up to 12 hours.
http://www.victimsupport.org.nz/get-help/homicide

For a really detailed coverage of bruising and evaluation at autopsy, see:

Interpreting bruises at necropsy
Abstract
The accurate interpretation of bruising at necropsy is essential to understanding
how a victim has been injured and assists the pathologist in a reliable reconstruction of the events leading to death. It is essential not only to assess the mechanism of production of a bruise, taking into account the type of impacting surface and the magnitude of force used, but also to estimate when the injury was caused. An account is given of the various methods used in the examination of bruises, particularly with respect to aging, as well as the factors that may affect their appearance. Differentiation from artefacts resulting from postmortem changes
is also discussed in some detail. (J Clin Pathol 2001;54:348–355)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti.../v054p00348.pd

[tehcloser]

Originally Posted by LolaMoon08

That is why I have been so crazy about pictures! Where are pictures of Zimmerman's injuries? Yes, mostly because I wanted to see for myself what injuries he had... but also, we all know all evidence is supposed to be photographed. If they did not photograph Zimmerman's injuries at the scene, at the station, and on later dates... they did a great disservice to Zimmerman and his self defense claim.

IF LE had any pictures of GZ's "injuries" we would have already seen them. That would have nipped a big part of this storm in the bud. The fact that we haven't tells me two things. They have no pictures, and he had no injuries they felt needed documented.

[m00c0w]

Originally Posted by daisy7

If LE took the clothing at the scene, then we wouldn't be wearing a shirt and jacket. And if they had some some clothes to provide him, how likely is it that they would be able to give him the same clothing that GZ reportedly was wearing that night?

If they would release the dash cams, we would be able to confirm what he was wearing when LE first arrived.

We don't know what he was wearing other than the jacket. He may have very well had another jacket in his vehicle.

[LolaMoon08]

Originally Posted by JeannaT

Well, I can see it. I can clearly see a bloody wound on the back of his head, (he's been cleaned up by EMTs, it wouldn't be flowing down his neck) and I can see that his nose is red. I think pics that were taken the next day and the following several days would much more clearly show a broken nose and progression of bruising that follows that. Those things don't show up in the first few minutes. Again, it would be interesting to see the EMT notes.

You have better eyes than me then? I'm more than willing to wait for actual photographic evidence before I make a real final conclusion... but this video does not show a man who was just brutally beaten.

If they released this video... pictures should be coming. I'm more than willing to wait.

[JeannaT]

Originally Posted by tehcloser

cross-contamination.............any good lawyer would get it thrown out.

Well then they could certainly go with the testimony of the witness who saw him on the ground, and the officer who arrived on the scene and noted debris on the back of the jacket consistent with that, and the fact that he had injuries to the back of his hand consistent with being on his back and having his head slammed into the ground. My guess is, EMTs could note having to remove dirt and leaves from the bloody wounds.

I really don't think a jury would believe, if presented with the evidence, that the cruiser was full of twigs and leaves.

The burden of proof in a courtroom is "beyond a reasonable doubt". Not "to a scientific certainty".

[Horace Finklestein]

Originally Posted by pkz

THERE IS NO BLOOD

Cops do not even have gloves on!

EMTs obviously cleaned up the blood. And why would a cop wear gloves if there wasn't any blood??

[jjenny]

Originally Posted by LolaMoon08

If they let him go home and change his clothes... I am going to be livid! I don't think they did though? The jacket matches the 911 calls.

I don't think they let him go home and change his clothes. He is clearly in custody even if they say he was not arrested.

[chefmom]

Originally Posted by LolaMoon08

If they let him go home and change his clothes... I am going to be livid! I don't think they did though? The jacket matches the 911 calls.

Yes! And it appears that he is wearing a white t-shirt under the jacket. In one of the 911 calls, the caller says that the man on top is in a white t-shirt. I wonder if his jacket got pulled off during the struggle? I can't see LE taking him home to change clothes. That would be such a huge break in the chain of command of evidence! JMO

[LolaMoon08]

If it's true that they did collect Zimmerman's clothes before he left the station that night, I will feel a lot better. One of my major problems with this case was them not collecting Zimmerman's clothes immediately.

[JeannaT]

Originally Posted by LolaMoon08

You have better eyes than me then? I'm more than willing to wait for actual photographic evidence before I make a real final conclusion... but this video does not show a man who was just brutally beaten.

If they released this video... pictures should be coming. I'm more than willing to wait.

Maybe I do have better eyes, or a clearer computer monitor? The wound on the back of his head is in the upper center of his head (as opposed to dead center on the back of his head) and is circular, and about 1.5 inches in diameter. It appears to be a raw, open but clean wound.

The redness on his nose is on the right side.

[LolaMoon08]

Originally Posted by chefmom

Yes! And it appears that he is wearing a white t-shirt under the jacket. In one of the 911 calls, the caller says that the man on top is in a white t-shirt. I wonder if his jacket got pulled off during the struggle? I can't see LE taking him home to change clothes. That would be such a huge break in the chain of command of evidence! JMO

I wouldn't say "white t-shirt" in here... it was gray!

[tehcloser]

Originally Posted by JeannaT

Well then they could certainly go with the testimony of the witness who saw him on the ground, and the officer who arrived on the scene and noted debris on the back of the jacket consistent with that, and the fact that he had injuries to the back of his hand consistent with being on his back and having his head slammed into the ground. My guess is, EMTs could note having to remove dirt and leaves from the bloody wounds.

I really don't think a jury would believe, if presented with the evidence, that the cruiser was full of twigs and leaves.

The burden of proof in a courtroom is "beyond a reasonable doubt". Not "to a scientific certainty".

I really don't think anyone said the patrol car was full of leaves and twigs, only that since they didn't bag it right away, it might be useless as evidence...

[Concerned Papa]

I'll tell you one group that's likely scrambling for attorney's long about now, is the HOA for this complex. They'd better hope they've got some very good liability insurance. This kid was murdered on common grounds deeded to the complex and owned by the members collectively.

I live in a gated condo complex in central Florida. Our HOA would never allow a renter be an active part of anything relating to the common liability of the owner's. Funny how it works that way, but the O sandwiched between the H and the A doesn't stand for renter.

[Yoda]

It all concerns me that, if they took his clothes before he got to the station, in the car or wherever, the new leaked video is just going to stir the pot again!!! We all looked and said where is the blood? But we are taking the time to question everything, media is going to create a whirlwind of look no blood on his clothes that must mean GZ shot TM from far away. Nobody needs this pot to be stirred with misleading information if that is what it is.

[Kimberlyd125]

Originally Posted by Yoda

Do you think they could tell at the funeral or are the funeral homes that good at making up a body ? Sorry about making up, couldn't think of another way to describe it.

The funeral director said he saw no injuries to TM's body. I would assume that means his nose too.

[tehcloser]

Originally Posted by JeannaT

Maybe I do have better eyes, or a clearer computer monitor? The wound on the back of his head is in the upper center of his head (as opposed to dead center on the back of his head) and is circular, and about 1.5 inches in diameter. It appears to be a raw, open but clean wound.

The redness on his nose is on the right side.

Your computer must be better than the networks viewing capabilities too.....they didn't see bruises or blood either.

[JeannaT]

Originally Posted by jjenny

I don't think they let him go home and change his clothes. He is clearly in custody even if they say he was not arrested.

Yes, he is clearly in custody, and in handcuffs while they are doing the preliminary investigation.

The earlier outrage that the cops just did a quick look-see at the scene and let everyone go about their merry way were completely incorrect. He's at the police station in handcuffs. And then they took his clothes from him before allowing him to leave.