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George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin General Discussion threads All closed discussion threads about George Zimmerman and Trayvon Martin.Not open for posting- but there is plenty of reading.


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Old 03-31-2012, 08:14 PM
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17 yo Trayvon Martin Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #13

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Clairfication on WS stance regarding the "victim friendly" issue.
I had a discussion with the owners about how we were to deal with this. This is what I was advised:
At this point in the investigation we don't KNOW exactly who ALL the victims are now. We KNOW that Trayvon is a victim, because he is dead. However, news breaks and new leaks come forth everyday and it is still unclear whether Zimmerman was a victim of any violence. Until more verifiable FACTS are available, WS has chosen to err on the side of treating both the confirmed (Trayvon) AND potential (Zimmerman) victim, both as victims.
Like I said, that may change after we have more verifiable information
Hope that helps clear this up.
Please bump as needed.

Just a reminder:
WS does not permit links that request or suggest sending donations without the clear permission of the owners . This is to protect our members and for no other reason.
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Old 03-31-2012, 08:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Sensei View Post
That is the way that our system is set up. The States Attorney does not have to have enough proof that she has a slam dunk case....the only thing that is required of her is that she have enough evidence to believe that the charges that she believe that the charges she brings against GZ are correct, she's not required to have enough to win, but enough to convince her that a crime has been committed and that GZ committed that crime.

Unless everything we have heard and seen thus far is 100% wrong, she has PC NOW. IMO JMHO and stuff.
I'm not sure what you mean by having enough to win? There's no guaranty of a win no matter what evidence you have in a jury trial. I used your words "indisputable evidence" in my post because that's what you hope to see. I was wondering what will happen if we don't see "indisputable evidence".
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Old 03-31-2012, 08:28 PM
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I've seen people more upset over killing a dog than Zimmerman appeared in the video at the station? I'll never forget when I hit a cat. I had to pull over because I could not stop crying. I sat there for a good 30 minutes crying.
________brought over from closed thread------------------------------------------------


I think that is a bit unfair. I think he may have been in shock. I would be. People react differently to heavy trauma. I saw a horrible accident that resulted in a death and I was very stoic and calm when I gave my witness statement to LE. And even when I first got back home I seemed unemotional. Then that night I feel apart and sobbed.
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Old 03-31-2012, 08:36 PM
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Imo, this tragic case has nothing to do with racial profiling. Nor do I think this was a hate crime. And yes, I did hear the racial slur in the 911 call. I simply do not feel that slur in conjunction with the unfolding of events, as I presently understand them (i.e., from listening to the 911 calls, link ), supports the contention that this tragedy was a hate crime as outlined in the "Matthew Shepard and James Byrd, Jr. Hate Crimes Prevention Act" ( link ) That is, I do not think GZ targeted and proceeded to shoot Trayvon purely bc he was black.

I think instead, this is a case of a hotheaded, wanna-be cop, who, from my read, regularly harassed neighborhood residents ( link ) and made chronic nuisance calls to the SPD ( link ). Otherwise put, imnsho, this guy was a accident waiting to happen. Someone who was bound to shoot someone, anyone, sooner or later. The recent voice findings ( link ), imho, refutes GZ's claim that the shooting was an act of self defense. Which, again, supports my contention that this guy was a walking time-bomb.

Aside: I wish they would post all of GZ's 911 calls as well as any other voice recordings they might have of the guy, bc, imho, he def sounds intoxicated in this call. ( link ) And, in light of the number of calls he made over the past eight years, I cannot help but to wonder if there might be an underlying substance abuse issue, or possibly even some sort of brain injury, that might explain (not excuse, of course), his, imho, reckless behavior.
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Old 03-31-2012, 08:37 PM
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I am always left with huge smile at those who refuse to play witch hunt, but want
the real information to come out, through fair investigation.
I love you guys


The story has reached a point where we are going in circles…and have to wait for a thorough investigation and hope for a fair analysis of it all.

I wonder if the voice analyzers have any authenticity since they came out on a weekend…
I can’t wait for Monday to hear more.
(if I question the DA coming out on a rainy Sunday night to a shooting scene – you bet I will also question anything else that happens on a weekend, because it is not usual)


I cannot keep up with the threads. It is flying like the wind.
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Old 03-31-2012, 08:39 PM
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Originally Posted by RANCH View Post
I'm not sure what you mean by having enough to win? There's no guaranty of a win no matter what evidence you have in a jury trial. I used your words "indisputable evidence" in my post because that's what you hope to see. I was wondering what will happen if we don't see "indisputable evidence".
maybe indisputable evidence was the wrong phrasing. But she is going to be convinced by the evidence that it was self defense, or she is going to be convinced that it was not....and even if there is not indisputable evidence it will have to go to trial, but I don't believe that it is going to be, well, we just don't know for sure so we aren't going to do anything. I firmly believe that there will be a preponderance of evidence one way or the other. IMO JMHO and stuff.
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Old 03-31-2012, 08:41 PM
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Originally Posted by RANCH View Post
I'm not sure what you mean by having enough to win? There's no guaranty of a win no matter what evidence you have in a jury trial. I used your words "indisputable evidence" in my post because that's what you hope to see. I was wondering what will happen if we don't see "indisputable evidence".
I am not waiting for any indisputable evidence...because there is only one thing here that is not disputable and that is TM is dead.
all else is hanging on a thread...
IMO we can only wait for a clean investigation...and connect the dots.
Maybe there are witnesses that we do not know of.
I do not see an open and shut case. They PD tried that and look how it blew up.
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Old 03-31-2012, 08:42 PM
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I just went to YouTube and listened to this child's screams of terror for the first time. I purposefully had waited for the news provided by the Sentinel earlier this evening.

I don't see how anyone's very soul can not be troubled by what I just heard. I don't see how a rage can not build for not only his killer, but those who lied to us with their assurances of these primal screams as coming from their kin being beaten by a child.

I dare you to take 47 seconds and listen to the early part of this tape. I dare you to listen and realize that tonight we have been told by TWO experts that the source of these screams is NOT GEORGE ZIMMERMAN.

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Old 03-31-2012, 08:43 PM
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Originally Posted by songline View Post
So should we expect a load of mad man with guns?
You've got nothing t be concerned about there... The event was scheduled a year ago, they do them about every 3 months. I was just merely adding commentary that this incident no doubt has concerned a great number of people to arm themselves. And that I had never seen such a big turnout at the event in over 5 years.

Quote:
I like your assessments and I am right there with you. I think things snowballed out of hand.
THE DOG AND MAN STAND OFF IS a perfect visual. LOL
Those capable of critical thinking will understand it... As I said it gave me pause to think on the incident that occurred in Sanford. I think it's terrible that a young man lost his life but I also think it's terrible that a man had to take a life... What no one can thus far say with any certainty is that at that moment it was unjustified... Yet it seems a great number are suffering from Scotoma.

All this non-sense about shot in the back is rubbish. There has been way too many eyes who've seen the body at this point. If that had been the situation Zimmerman would have been arrested and charged on the spot. Not even the SPD could conceal that from being discovered. The Corner and later the Mortician would no doubt be aware of the entry wound area...
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Old 03-31-2012, 08:44 PM
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Originally Posted by katydid23 View Post
I've seen people more upset over killing a dog than Zimmerman appeared in the video at the station? I'll never forget when I hit a cat. I had to pull over because I could not stop crying. I sat there for a good 30 minutes crying.
________brought over from closed thread------------------------------------------------


I think that is a bit unfair. I think he may have been in shock. I would be. People react differently to heavy trauma. I saw a horrible accident that resulted in a death and I was very stoic and calm when I gave my witness statement to LE. And even when I first got back home I seemed unemotional. Then that night I feel apart and sobbed.
While you may have felt unemotional at the time someone looking at you I'm sure could see the signs. We can see GZ talking freely with LE and even walks on his own behind the first LEO just like he's there only to give a statement. The LEO who should be escorting him in is left behind and having to catch up with him. And for someone just having been in a fight he really does look remarkably put together. We know he was on the ground at some point because his back is wet and he has grass on his jacket it but the rest of him looks undisturbed. I can't imagine being in that violent a fight and not have your clothes show signs of a struggle. jmo
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Old 03-31-2012, 08:44 PM
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I think the prosecutor is doing the right thing not rushing to judgement. Sometimes it takes years for an arrest. I think they are probably looking to see if there were any surveillance cameras or additional witnesses. They also need lab work back the blood evidence, the victims medical findings. I think that within a month or so this will be put in front of a grand jury.
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Old 03-31-2012, 08:47 PM
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Originally Posted by katydid23 View Post
I've seen people more upset over killing a dog than Zimmerman appeared in the video at the station? I'll never forget when I hit a cat. I had to pull over because I could not stop crying. I sat there for a good 30 minutes crying.
________brought over from closed thread------------------------------------------------


I think that is a bit unfair. I think he may have been in shock. I would be. People react differently to heavy trauma. I saw a horrible accident that resulted in a death and I was very stoic and calm when I gave my witness statement to LE. And even when I first got back home I seemed unemotional. Then that night I feel apart and sobbed.
Sorry when my Mom Died I did not cry. but I am told (I do not remember) that someone grabbed me because I looked like I was either going to fall or jump in the grave. I was in shock but 6 months later I started to cry all the time...it took over 6 months for me to stop the constant tears.

WE ALL RESPOND in a different way...But if you had seen me the day of the funeral, you would have asked is she numb, dumb, or unfeeling???
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Old 03-31-2012, 08:47 PM
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Post by Sensei from last thread.


Quote:
No one who could be suffering from a
concussion, or bleeding into their brain from a closed head trauma can be of sound mind due to the nature of their injury. IMO JMHO and stuff.

Those conditions can ONLY be diagnosed by a physician, with the proper tests, CT scan, possibly MRI ect. so the story of having your head hit hard, and any substatiating evidence is enough....
So if anyone suffers a blow to the head at lets say a car accident, police can legally force them to go to a hospital and undergo treatment even if they decline?

I still would like Richard Hornsby's opinion on this.

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - FL 17 y/o Trayvon Martin Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #12
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Old 03-31-2012, 08:48 PM
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I'd been to two rally's over this incident already so I didn't attend today's. Instead I went to the gun show in Orange county. It was the busiest show I've seen in years could hardly walk around the place.




I've been keeping abreast of all the info being released/leaked to the public. I still remain committed to my first impression that this incident was purely a snowballed incident that ended in tragedy. Each individual let their suspicion of the other get the better of them.



Funny thing happened yesterday that gave me pause to think. I was washing a car and down the street I heard a forceful bark from a dog. This bark wasn't the typical bark from a dog but rather one of posturing. Then I heard a man shouting get out of here as I turned to look I saw the dog and a man in a stand off... Now what's the importance of this and what does it have to do with the incident in Sanford. Well, in some ways it mirrored what Zimmerman/Martin must have experienced. In that moment it didn't matter what the history was of the neighbor or the dog, for each was entitled to defend themselves. Had the dog attacked the man would have been been justified in self-defense. Had the man attacked the dog then the dog had every right to bite him...



See, all the rest doesn't really matter. Some say Zimmerman shouldn't have gotten out of his truck. Maybe if Martin hadn't been suspended from school he wouldn't have been in Sanford. See there is all sorts of what if's and trying to lay blame on such things are of no material importance. The only thing that really defines this incident is what happened at the moment Zimmerman fired the shot. Was he defending his well being or was he not.

ONELOVE: I brought the above post over from the last thread, posted by Ironhorse, I think.

While it is beautifully written and I love the style, there are two observations to make about it.

One is that the dog in this scenario SHOULD have been restrained by the owner. It is the owner's legal responsibility. Some innocent victims have been killed in such incidents; some we have read about here at Websleuths. If the dog HAD bitten, it would NOT have been justifiable UNDER THE LAW. Most of us here would judge the dog owner to be in the wrong and the man to be within his legal rights to defend himself. It's really NOT an "all the rest of the factors don't really matter" situation AT ALL.

Secondly, bringing up Trayvon's suspension from school, which has absolutely NOTHING to do with how and why he was killed, and comparing that to Zimmerman's conscious CHOICE to get out of his truck and stalk Trayvon with a GUN is coming from two entirely different universes. One has exactly nothing to do with the other. The comment "trying to lay blame is of no material importance" is most intriguing. This is, in fact, what a fair, competent, unbiased investigation is ALL about. If what happened in that moment of the killing is due to GZ's WRONGFUL actions, then of course it matters. If Trayvon committed an act prior to that moment that merited his being shot, then of COURSE that matters.

But if I had not stopped to THINK about this, I would thought you to be persuasive with wordcraft. I hope a jury will think with their rational brains and not emotional drama.

But again, I thank you for a nicely written piece.

Last edited by ynotdivein; 03-31-2012 at 09:01 PM.
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Old 03-31-2012, 08:48 PM
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Imo, this tragic case has nothing to do with racial profiling. Nor do I think this was a hate crime. And yes, I did hear the racial slur in the 911 call. I simply do not feel that slur in conjunction with the unfolding of events, as I presently understand them (i.e., from listening to the 911 calls, link ), supports the contention that this tragedy was a hate crime as outlined in the "Matthew Shepard and James Byrd, Jr. Hate Crimes Prevention Act" ( link ) That is, I do not think GZ targeted and proceeded to shoot Trayvon purely bc he was black.

I think instead, this is a case of a hotheaded, wanna-be cop, who, from my read, regularly harassed neighborhood residents ( link ) and made chronic nuisance calls to the SPD ( link ). Otherwise put, imnsho, this guy was a accident waiting to happen. Someone who was bound to shoot someone, anyone, sooner or later. The recent voice findings ( link ), imho, refutes GZ's claim that the shooting was an act of self defense. Which, again, supports my contention that this guy was a walking time-bomb.

Aside: I wish they would post all of GZ's 911 calls as well as any other voice recordings they might have of the guy, bc, imho, he def sounds intoxicated in this call. ( link ) And, in light of the number of calls he made over the past eight years, I cannot help but to wonder if there might be an underlying substance abuse issue, or possibly even some sort of brain injury, that might explain (not excuse, of course), his, imho, reckless behavior.


Wow...very nice and well-linked post!
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Old 03-31-2012, 08:49 PM
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Originally Posted by katydid23 View Post
I've seen people more upset over killing a dog than Zimmerman appeared in the video at the station? I'll never forget when I hit a cat. I had to pull over because I could not stop crying. I sat there for a good 30 minutes crying.
________brought over from closed thread------------------------------------------------


I think that is a bit unfair. I think he may have been in shock. I would be. People react differently to heavy trauma. I saw a horrible accident that resulted in a death and I was very stoic and calm when I gave my witness statement to LE. And even when I first got back home I seemed unemotional. Then that night I feel apart and sobbed.
I don't think GZ was in shock. He didn't have the right affect or tone when he was supposedly suspicious of Trayvon. I have wondered if when he had his hands on Trayvon after the shooting if he was looking for a weapon or just discovered all he had on him was the Skittles, Tea and phone, and that is why he was pacing with his hands on his head. I wonder if the police got samples of the blood that was supposedly on him at the scene. I am guessing they didn't. I can't believe that they would allow the EMTs to "clean him up" before doing that. According to a retired NYPD officer they didn't bag his hands and shoes either, which is always protocol in a shooting.
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Old 03-31-2012, 08:49 PM
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One of our wonderful members, I forget the username, brought up any tapes that may have been taken at 7-11. At first I was like, what would that have to do with what happened in the complex? Now that I think about it, I think everything leading up to the shooting that night is important.

I don't know how long 7-11's keep their tapes? I can only hope that the LE investigating this shooting had enough intelligence that when they heard Trayvon had gone to the store, that they immediately went and got the tapes.

Also, with the store being so close, that could have been the store Zimmerman was also heading to? I know that Zimmerman said he was on his way to the store, but I would like to rule out that he had already been to the store? Entrance gate cameras should show this too?

Does anyone know what building Zimmerman lived in? Does it show on that map what building he lives in?
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Old 03-31-2012, 08:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Concerned Papa View Post
I just went to YouTube and listened to this child's screams of terror for the first time. I purposefully had waited for the news provided by the Sentinel earlier this evening.

I don't see how anyone's very soul can not be troubled by what I just heard. I don't see how a rage can not build for not only his killer, but those who lied to us with their assurances of these primal screams as coming from their kin being beaten by a child.

I dare you to take 47 seconds and listen to the early part of this tape. I dare you to listen and realize that tonight we have been told by TWO experts that the source of these screams is NOT GEORGE ZIMMERMAN.

Trayvon Martin 911 Tape Screaming "Help" - YouTube
Oh my, I'm just shaking after listening to that. That poor boy.
I wonder what kind of condition GZ's knuckles were in after all of
that torture?
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Old 03-31-2012, 08:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Concerned Papa View Post
I just went to YouTube and listened to this child's screams of terror for the first time. I purposefully had waited for the news provided by the Sentinel earlier this evening.

I don't see how anyone's very soul can not be troubled by what I just heard. I don't see how a rage can not build for not only his killer, but those who lied to us with their assurances of these primal screams as coming from their kin being beaten by a child.

I dare you to take 47 seconds and listen to the early part of this tape. I dare you to listen and realize that tonight we have been told by TWO experts that the source of these screams is NOT GEORGE ZIMMERMAN.

Trayvon Martin 911 Tape Screaming "Help" - YouTube
Papa, I can't listen...Don't know IF or when I will ever be able to..Entirely too painful especially now knowing his life was going to be snuffed out within a few minutes......JMHO
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Old 03-31-2012, 08:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Concerned Papa View Post
I just went to YouTube and listened to this child's screams of terror for the first time. I purposefully had waited for the news provided by the Sentinel earlier this evening.

I don't see how anyone's very soul can not be troubled by what I just heard. I don't see how a rage can not build for not only his killer, but those who lied to us with their assurances of these primal screams as coming from their kin being beaten by a child.

I dare you to take 47 seconds and listen to the early part of this tape. I dare you to listen and realize that tonight we have been told by TWO experts that the source of these screams is NOT GEORGE ZIMMERMAN.

Trayvon Martin 911 Tape Screaming "Help" - YouTube
I know I have said this more than once, but I have always known it was Trayvon screaming. Will that convict GZ?
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Old 03-31-2012, 08:53 PM
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I think the prosecutor is doing the right thing not rushing to judgement. Sometimes it takes years for an arrest. I think they are probably looking to see if there were any surveillance cameras or additional witnesses. They also need lab work back the blood evidence, the victims medical findings. I think that within a month or so this will be put in front of a grand jury.
I agree. And , imo, this huge national protest is putting the DA in a very bad position. If they feel pressured by the public to arrest him BEFORE they have the tests and evidence back, it might hamper the case.
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Old 03-31-2012, 08:53 PM
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Originally Posted by songline View Post
I am always left with huge smile at those who refuse to play witch hunt, but want
the real information to come out, through fair investigation.
I love you guys


The story has reached a point where we are going in circles…and have to wait for a thorough investigation and hope for a fair analysis of it all.

I wonder if the voice analyzers have any authenticity since they came out on a weekend…I can’t wait for Monday to hear more.
(if I question the DA coming out on a rainy Sunday night to a shooting scene – you bet I will also question anything else that happens on a weekend, because it is not usual)

I cannot keep up with the threads. It is flying like the wind.
BBM: Maybe the overwhelming attendance at the gun shot brought them out. No one wants to see this get out of hand. In reality, I'm sure it took them a few days of listening to make their determination and submit their reports before OS wanted to announce them. jmo
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Old 03-31-2012, 08:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironhorse View Post
You've got nothing t be concerned about there... The event was scheduled a year ago, they do them about every 3 months. I was just merely adding commentary that this incident no doubt has concerned a great number of people to arm themselves. And that I had never seen such a big turnout at the event in over 5 years.


Those capable of critical thinking will understand it... As I said it gave me pause to think on the incident that occurred in Sanford. I think it's terrible that a young man lost his life but I also think it's terrible that a man had to take a life... What no one can thus far say with any certainty is that at that moment it was unjustified... Yet it seems a great number are suffering from Scotoma.

All this non-sense about shot in the back is rubbish. There has been way too many eyes who've seen the body at this point. If that had been the situation Zimmerman would have been arrested and charged on the spot. Not even the SPD could conceal that from being discovered. The Corner and later the Mortician would no doubt be aware of the entry wound area...

I don't think that Trayvon was shot in the back, but I do doubt the story that he was on top of GZ when he was shot....I cannot reconcile the unblemished state of GZ's shirt with a very close contact chest shot, I would not expect him to be covered in blood but there should be some spots of blood big enough for a person to see, even with the grainy camera. From what I have been able to find out, gunshot wounds splatter blood when they first hit.

Further, I have never believed that the screams on the 911 tape were GZ, it does not sound like his voice at all, and I have every reason to believe the test that has been published, which leads me to believe that is the sound of a young man who sees the gun, and knows that he is going to be shot and is trying to get away, if the voice analysis is correct it certainly does not substantiate the idea that GZ was under attack when he shot, and lastly, I do not believe that someone shouting and screaming for their life is going to simply STOP the minute they shoot their assailant....how did he know that one shot would stop him? In a life and death struggle you don't stop screaming until you are certain that you are no longer under attack, and I don't see that being the very instant that you shoot...IMO JMHO and stuff.
  #24  
Old 03-31-2012, 08:56 PM
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Okay, I wasn't going to get into the voice analysist thing tonight because I wanted to do a little more research on these "experts", but I really need to know if they did this independently? Or were they hired by the State of Florida?
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Old 03-31-2012, 08:57 PM
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I don't have a problem with normal people owning guns. I do have problem with people that are not normal having guns. George Zimmerman, imo, is not normal or stable and hasn't been for a long time.

Do you have to do any kind of mental exam before getting a license to have a gun?
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