17 yo Trayvon Martin Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #14

[katydid23]

Originally Posted by annalia

But according to the gf, GZ was behind Trayvon, he was following him, not standing ahead of him. How would Trayvon shove him to get past him?

JMHO

I was looking at the map that was posted upstream here. They showed GZ coming around between the buildings and cutting off TM midway.

[JBean]

but I would say that it's a matter of interpretation just what the children were doing.

I see you had an eta after I quoted. The only thing I was referencing was what the report said and what The daily Beast reported it said-not what was actually happening.

[songline]

Originally Posted by LambChop

I keep seeing witch hunt:

"The term "witch-hunt" since the 1930s has also been in use as a metaphor to refer to moral panics in general (frantic persecution of perceived enemies).' from the dictionary

I'm not sure that is the right term. Trying to find out what happened that night and the motivations of both people involved is not a witch hunt on GZ. GZ has a past history of violent behavior and we have all read the articles and statements. Descriptions from those who know him. They are facts that give us an idea of where GZ was coming from that night. Statements made by his family, his attorney, his neighbors all figure in to give us an idea of what made him step out of the car and go after TM. There is a reason and we are getting close to the truth.

And this is not directed at any one post but when I see a very defensive posting regarding GZ it leads me to believe some are feeling the sand shifting beneath their feet so in order to gain their balance they have to find wrong with the other person. We were asked to stick to the facts and I think that is what we are all trying to do so examining GZ is our only option when we do not know why he decided to follow TM.

All I have heard from those who support GZ's story is that GZ was justified. But why? We have no proof that all of what GZ has said is true. Day-by-day we are seeing more and more to discredit him. GZ gave a statement and if what he said is not ringing true that calls for us to question everything he has claimed happened that night. It is what investigators do. No one has yet given him a free ticket. And there will be more to come.

While two people can contribute to an event usually only one is the instigator. The initial part of the instigation was the call to LE by GZ. We have a right to know why he made that call. jmo

We can use witch hunt, lynching mob, hangin a man.
All means the same, and I m sure there are other terms too.

FINDING OUT what happened means INVESTIGATION
It does not mean conclusions.
When people pretend to know without FACTS they are
not finding out anything.
I made red the statements that you make here that are no IMO correct.
HERE IS WHY: When you paint GZ into a Character analysis.
You must paint both people for a fair analysis. Because the public does not know
either of them and it sets up public opinions that are tainted, or swayed.

I for one am trying to keep the game on the ball which is
INVESTIGATE THOROUGHLY
I am not on the GZ camp or the TM camp.
I am clearly disgusted with the law and the way the legal system handled it.
But hanging GZ is WRONG. And stroking TM is just as wrong.
IMHO I see the many who stroke TM as enablers,
And Those who are standing up for GZ - not allowing a lynching.

[JBean]

let's move past the witch hunt shall we? it pits posters against one another and it seems to imply that this is not a discussion.
thanks

[Elley Mae]

The thing that gets me is that GZ was on the phone with dispatch and sees TM and tells the call taker what he's doing and everything, then I listen to the 911 call from the female and she had to have heard commotion for a bit before placing the call then is on the phone for 45 seconds before you hear the shot. So they struggled for at least a minute.

What happened that GZ didn't shoot TM straight away.

[ThoughtFox]

Originally Posted by JBean

I'll have to look those up.
But in some instances,I think it is just the same old sensationalized reporting, that we see all the time. In one report the recap said he was reporting people for having a party at the clubhouse. the part the recap omitted was that the people didn't live in the neighborhood LOL.

I see your point, but how did he know for sure they didn't live there? He didn't think Trayvon belonged there either, but he did.

Aren't people who live there allowed to invite outsiders to a pool party? I've been to parties inside gated communities before but I certainly didn't live there.

In one of the older calls that I transcribed for the Media thread, he admitted he didn't know if someone lived there or not, but that his wife thought he was connected to a burglary. We don't know what happened when police got there. The person could have been completely innocent and just taking a walk. Looking around at cars is not a crime - everyone does it as they walk along.

My point is, how much of this is the perception of the Zimmermans, and how much is reality? Without knowing the outcome of the 911 calls, we are only getting their side of the story without any balance.

[Wise Old Owl]

I wish we could get at least an idea of how long LE was at the scene that night. We know GZ was taken to the station 35 minutes after the shooting. And we know that TM's dad was home 10:45 - 11:00 and said there was no sign of anything by then.

So, how long where they there? Residents would know - I bet even some of them stood out there and watched them. It does take some time for the CSI techs to take all the pictures and bag and tag the evidence. But really what evidence? Only thing on that partial police report taken into evidence was the gun.

Years ago - when we had a neighbor commit suicide - man, they were there for a good 4 - 5 hours. And what evidence would they have had to collect there as well? She used a gun and just sat down in a chair. I do know it did take a while for the ME to show up.

That's another thing - we haven't heard when the ME got there or anything. But the time frame we've been given just doesn't sit right with me. How could they have done all they need to do in that short of time?

And,

And,

Where is Trayvon's phone?




JMHO

[suzihawk]

Originally Posted by JBean

I'll have to look those up.
But in some instances,I think it is just the same old sensationalized reporting, that we see all the time. In one report the recap said he was reporting people for having a party at the clubhouse. the part the recap omitted was that the people didn't live in the neighborhood LOL.

I understand what you're saying, JBean. But just because GZ didn't recognize them doesn't mean they weren't invited to a birthday party or some such event by someone who did live in the complex. Just the other side of the coin...

ETA: It appears to me that GZ didn't report things that were 'suspicious' so much as he reported things he didn't personally approve of. That's just my opinion, of course.

[songline]

Originally Posted by Jacobite

Let's get the big picture here. If Zimmerman had not intercepted Martin, Martin would have gone home, watched a ballgame and enjoyed a snack with his brother. He was preparing for college and the field of aviation. This was his plan. He was not committing a crime. He was only guilty of wearing clothes that are now the popular style with millions of kids around the world from all classes. Zimmerman was in error singling out this kid in the first place. That's the big picture.
Also, this fable about Martin carrying out an ambush and attack while on the phone does not add up. How can someone attack you while on the phone?

Sorry that is your interpretation.
Each camp paint their side the best way they can to help create PUBLIC IMPRESSION.
People then repeat what they assess from it.
I think If I was a watch person I would have sized him up the same way.
I just would not have been carrying a gun because I do not like them
So since it is legal in Florida GZ did nothing illegal.
The problem is in the 2 minutes we do not know anything about.
So since we do not know what happened in those 2 minutes you cannot see the big picture just my opinion

[RANCH]

Originally Posted by highflyer

There is no witch hunt on GZ. It appears the man almost got away with stalking and killing a teenager. GZ deserves no peace at this point but he does deserve all safety and rights afforded him by law and a trial by his peers. It will not bring Trayvon Martin back but hopefully it will bring a measure of peace to his family.

Do we know for a fact that GZ was stalking TM? Do we even know for a fact that GZ was following TM at the time of their physical contact?

[JBean]

Originally Posted by ThoughtFox

I see your point, but how did he know for sure they didn't live there? He didn't think Trayvon belonged there either, but he did.

Aren't people who live there allowed to invite outsiders to a pool party? I've been to parties inside gated communities before but I certainly didn't live there.

In one of the older calls that I transcribed for the Media thread, he admitted he didn't know if someone lived there or not, but that his wife thought he was connected to a burglary.

My point is, how much of this is the perception of the Zimmermans, and how much is reality? Without knowing the outcome of the 911 calls, we are only getting their side of the story without any balance.

I cconcur with your analysis-but my point is just a much simpler one.
What the reports actually say and what other report them as saying are not quite the same.
I think many of his calls are ridiculous- like calling because someone is trying to collect rent when their house is in foreclosure. Obviously not a 911 matter.

But I am not addressing the validity of the calls-only addressing how they are reported to us as opposed to reading them for ourselves. no more- no less.

[vlpate]

Originally Posted by Jacobite

Let's get the big picture here. If Zimmerman had not intercepted Martin, Martin would have gone home, watched a ballgame and enjoyed a snack with his brother. He was preparing for college and the field of aviation. This was his plan. He was not committing a crime. He was only guilty of wearing clothes that are now the popular style with millions of kids around the world from all classes. Zimmerman was in error singling out this kid in the first place. That's the big picture.
Also, this fable about Martin carrying out an ambush and attack while on the phone does not add up. How can someone attack you while on the phone?

His clothes had nothing to do with why LE was called. The reason LE was called is on the 911 call.

We have no way to know if Zimmerman intercepted Martin. Martin took off running and had plenty of time to get to his house if that was his goal.

Zimmerman has, a decent job, a wife, a car, and at 28, had not been in trouble with the law for seven years. By all accounts, a responsible citizen contributing to society and his neighborhood.

Trayvon had been in trouble for breaking zero-tolerance rules at school several times , and had just been suspended as a result of them, that day. Why is it out of the realm of possibility that he might have looked suspicious, looking for trouble, outside of school?

The entire incident, from beginning to end, lasted SEVEN minutes.

This is seen as me taking GZ's side. The above is not me taking anyone's side, the above are just the facts.

[songline]

Originally Posted by suzihawk

I understand what you're saying, JBean. But just because GZ didn't recognize them doesn't mean they weren't invited to a birthday party or some such event by someone who did live in the complex. Just the other side of the coin...

That is true, but He had a right to size him up.
I sure would have.

IN real Estate many come to buy - I do not service them all I SIZE THEM UP.
Every profession knows how to size up people.
IMHO GZ sized him up correctly as someone to watch...
What happened past that WE DO NOT KNOW.

[songline]

Originally Posted by vlpate

His clothes had nothing to do with why LE was called. The reason LE was called is on the 911 call.

We have no way to know if Zimmerman intercepted Martin. Martin took off running and had plenty of time to get to his house if that was his goal.

Zimmerman has, a decent job, a wife, a car, and at 28, had not been in trouble with the law for seven years. By all accounts, a responsible citizen contributing to society and his neighborhood.

Trayvon had been in trouble for breaking zero-tolerance rules at school several times , and had just been suspended as a result of them, that day. Why is it out of the realm of possibility that he might have looked suspicious, looking for trouble, outside of school?

The entire incident, from beginning to end, lasted SEVEN minutes.

This is seen as me taking GZ's side. The above is not me taking anyone's side, the above are just the facts.

GOOD POST

[waltzingmatilda]

The following is JMO in regards to the original photo of Trayvon that was in the press.

If my son were just murdered and I was seeking justice for his murder, (gosh the very thought of this makes me feel sick) I would grab the first picture off the wall that was handy. That would be his HS graduation photo. He is now 27 years old and is becoming young man and is 'filling out' and much hairier now than when he was 18.

A former student of mine was gunned down on the sidewalk a few years ago. I taught him in fifth grade and he was murdered at age 18. His mother made public pleas for the killer to come forward. She provided a photo of 'Ty' in his football uniform that was taken about 3 to 4 yrs earlier before he aged out of Pop Warner.

I don't think that if my son were murdered that the first thing on my mind would be to go through stacks of photos in order to choose one that would please the public. I would grab the first one off the wall that's handy.

I just wish we could stop scrutinizing Tray's parents for giving his football pic to the media in the beginning. They were mourning the loss of their son, for heaven's sake. I doubt they had intentions of misleading the public. IMO, they most likely chose a photo that was immedialy at hand, ie. hanging on the wall.

JMO and all that jazz!

wm

[Wise Old Owl]

But isn't "sizing someone up" the same as judging?

Like I said - you never get a second chance to make a first impression.

We all do it. GZ sized up or judged TM. And his first impression was wrong.

But GZ acted on that wrong first impression and he continued to make bad choices. I believe he should be held accountable and have the appropriate consequences for those bad choices.


JMHO

[Elley Mae]

Originally Posted by Wise Old Owl

I wish we could get at least an idea of how long LE was at the scene that night. We know GZ was taken to the station 35 minutes after the shooting. And we know that TM's dad was home 10:45 - 11:00 and said there was no sign of anything by then.

So, how long where they there? Residents would know - I bet even some of them stood out there and watched them. It does take some time for the CSI techs to take all the pictures and bag and tag the evidence. But really what evidence? Only thing on that partial police report taken into evidence was the gun.

Years ago - when we had a neighbor commit suicide - man, they were there for a good 4 - 5 hours. And what evidence would they have had to collect there as well? She used a gun and just sat down in a chair. I do know it did take a while for the ME to show up.

That's another thing - we haven't heard when the ME got there or anything. But the time frame we've been given just doesn't sit right with me. How could they have done all they need to do in that short of time?

And,

And,

Where is Trayvon's phone?




JMHO

There is a post I was just talking to hubby about and it was about Trayvon's possessions which were skittles, iced tea, $22, iiirc there was no mention of phone.

So what happened to TM's phone?

[vlpate]

Originally Posted by ThoughtFox

I see your point, but how did he know for sure they didn't live there? He didn't think Trayvon belonged there either, but he did.

Aren't people who live there allowed to invite outsiders to a pool party? I've been to parties inside gated communities before but I certainly didn't live there.

In one of the older calls that I transcribed for the Media thread, he admitted he didn't know if someone lived there or not, but that his wife thought he was connected to a burglary. We don't know what happened when police got there. The person could have been completely innocent and just taking a walk. Looking around at cars is not a crime - everyone does it as they walk along.

My point is, how much of this is the perception of the Zimmermans, and how much is reality? Without knowing the outcome of the 911 calls, we are only getting their side of the story without any balance.

A man matching his exact description was arrested. It's in the police reports provided by LE and linked here many times.

As for the pool - if the people at the pool didn't live in the gated community, and they were not accompanied by homeowners in the gated community, they had no business being there. Some communities limit the number of guests allowed in their amenities, I don't know if this was the case or not. If they were children under a certain age, they would not be allowed at the pool without an adult homeowner, regardless of whether they lived there or not.

[songline]

Originally Posted by suzihawk

I understand what you're saying, JBean. But just because GZ didn't recognize them doesn't mean they weren't invited to a birthday party or some such event by someone who did live in the complex. Just the other side of the coin...

ETA: It appears to me that GZ didn't report things that were 'suspicious' so much as he reported things he didn't personally approve of. That's just my opinion, of course.

Maybe GZ was a bit of a PITA..or just really anal
I would much rather have that then find out a child was raped, killed because
the people have a mind your own business mentality,
GZ had a full life, this was just being a good citizen, and something went out of control.
Until we find out more from an investigation all else to me is a lynching. MOO

[suzihawk]

Originally Posted by vlpate

His clothes had nothing to do with why LE was called. The reason LE was called is on the 911 call.

We have no way to know if Zimmerman intercepted Martin. Martin took off running and had plenty of time to get to his house if that was his goal.

Zimmerman has, a decent job, a wife, a car, and at 28, had not been in trouble with the law for seven years. By all accounts, a responsible citizen contributing to society and his neighborhood.

Trayvon had been in trouble for breaking zero-tolerance rules at school several times , and had just been suspended as a result of them, that day. Why is it out of the realm of possibility that he might have looked suspicious, looking for trouble, outside of school?

The entire incident, from beginning to end, lasted SEVEN minutes.

This is seen as me taking GZ's side. The above is not me taking anyone's side, the above are just the facts.

I don't know that for sure. Do you?

What do you think TM's goal was for taking off running if not to go home or get away from GZ?

[bessie]

Originally Posted by songline

That is true, but He had a right to size him up.
I sure would have.

IN real Estate many come to buy - I do not service them all I SIZE THEM UP.
Every profession knows how to size up people.
IMHO GZ sized him up correctly as someone to watch...
What happened past that WE DO NOT KNOW.

Based on what criteria?

[highflyer]

Originally Posted by RANCH

Do we know for a fact that GZ was stalking TM? Do we even know for a fact that GZ was following TM at the time of their physical contact?

A fact? No. From listening to the tapes and hearing GZ on the move from his truck and where the shooting happened it is a reasonable assumption. Am looking forward to a trial so that all facts may come out.

[songline]

Originally Posted by Wise Old Owl

But isn't "sizing someone up" the same as judging?

Like I said - you never get a second chance to make a first impression.

We all do it. GZ sized up or judged TM. And his first impression was wrong.

But GZ acted on that wrong first impression and he continued to make bad choices. I believe he should be held accountable and have the appropriate consequences for those bad choices.


JMHO

Watch man must size people up or they would never suspect anyone.
they would allow anything and everything and only call when it is much too late.

What are they supposed to watch for?
someone already running with a loot?
somene already grabbing a kid into a car?
I think that would be late.
They are there to prevent that from happening.
WHAT

[Wise Old Owl]

Originally Posted by Elley Mae

There is a post I was just talking to hubby about and it was about Trayvon's possessions which were skittles, iced tea, $22, iiirc there was no mention of phone.

So what happened to TM's phone?

And that right now is the $100,000. question. We have seen absolutely no confirmation of who or when or how Trayvon's was found, taken, returned, etc.

The physical location of Trayvon's phone is a complete mystery.

I've been wondering today that maybe during the course of the scuffle that maybe a button was pushed here or a picture taken there? IDK - maybe even the recording button was pushed and that's why the phone has been strangely un-talked about. IDK


JMHO

[w1df10wr]

Originally Posted by vlpate

His clothes had nothing to do with why LE was called. The reason LE was called is on the 911 call.

We have no way to know if Zimmerman intercepted Martin. Martin took off running and had plenty of time to get to his house if that was his goal.

Zimmerman has, a decent job, a wife, a car, and at 28, had not been in trouble with the law for seven years. By all accounts, a responsible citizen contributing to society and his neighborhood.

Trayvon had been in trouble for breaking zero-tolerance rules at school several times , and had just been suspended as a result of them, that day. Why is it out of the realm of possibility that he might have looked suspicious, looking for trouble, outside of school?

The entire incident, from beginning to end, lasted SEVEN minutes.

This is seen as me taking GZ's side. The above is not me taking anyone's side, the above are just the facts.

RBBM - I don't understand why it keeps being posted that TM "ran". GZ saying it on the 911 tape, doesn't make it the truth. It was dark out, perhaps TM walked faster and GZ took it as running?