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  #701  
Old 04-08-2012, 09:29 PM
Ardy Ardy is offline
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Originally Posted by BorgQueen View Post
I noticed that, too... but it appears to be that way on only one shoe. I dismissed it as a loose shoe tying, and the laces were pulled back behind the tongue (it has happened to me before with shoes with really long laces. I tend to tie laces once, then not again unless they need to be tied...)
If you are right.......there are some possible explanations.

It's a fashion statement to have each shoe tied differently? I know some young people wear different unmatched socks all the time.

Someone was in the process of changing the laces over, were interrupted and never got around to completing the task.

Someone bought 2 pairs of identical shoes, so they had 2 pairs and one of the pairs had laces one way and the other pair had the other way. The pairs then got mixed up with one shoe of each in a pair. That would mean there would be another pair of the same shoes, possibly with one shoe tied one way and one shoe tied the other way, somewhere else.

(The above might sound implausible, but often athletic shoe stores have a buy one pair.......get another pair for half price sales. I have bought 2 pairs of shoes at one time to save money.

JMO
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  #702  
Old 04-08-2012, 09:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Wondergirl View Post
BBM: You say much of the case against MR hinges on TLM's testimony.

It's my opinion, that much of the case against MR hinges on TLM's testimony combined with the corroborating evidence to her testimony. We have seen alot of it so far, and there is much more to come.

Just like the Crown presented to the jury - listen very carefully to what she had to say, and anaylze that in conjuction with the other evidence.

I do wonder, how do you pick and choose what you believe out of TLM's testimony? What are your criteria, for determining the truth?

Also, if TLM is trying to bring down MTR, the innocent dupe, for something he didn't do, why exactly did she decide to say she killed Tori at his trial?

I can follow the hypothetical line of thought for her being the instegator, her planning the abduction, but, in the end, when you get to the part about her all of a sudden changing the details to the fact that SHE killed Tori (when she was already in jail for murder)......you lose me. Something just doesn't line up.


JMO
Fortunately I don't have to be one of the jurors deciding on a verdict. I wasnt there to see her inflections or the tone of her voice, which I think is important in assessing credibility.

My interest in the trial proceedings is a bit more clinical (I work as a law clerk but not in criminal although litigation court cases are very similar). I see the defence's strategy in characterizing TLM to the jury as violent, malicious and vindictive and I think they will try thru witnesses etc to portray MR as an innocent dupe. The idea is to have the jury feel that MR was not the mastermind, and get a conviction on manslaughter - less time.

The jury will I suppose compare parts of TLM's testimony to the evidence presented, and decide whether they can believe those parts. Anything she said that can't be corroborated will likely be discounted by them as untruths.

I suppose TLM may have gotten scared as MRs court date approached, knowing that her own sentencing was tainted and that she would be cross examined and found out during his trial. She did say I believe that she didn't want to testify. However, she does have to - so she admits at a minimum that she was the murderer and retains the rest of her story to conform with the Statement of Facts in her own case, since she is familiar with it anyways. She is serving a life sentence for Murder 1 - but her summary conviction contemplated that she was not the one that wielded the hammer - but that she was complicit in the abduction and events following. Like being an accessory. I still do not understand why her lawyer didn't get her to go to trial and present a case the same as Derstine - that she was the dupe and I don't buy the atonement reasoning (since she is obviously not feeling badly about it any more). I really don't know why she does what she does or what her reasoning is. Maybe she is not ready to admit that she was the engine - the same as she said she was not ready before to acknowledge that she was the one that murdered TS. All I know is that she was picked up on a parole violation a few days after the murder for missing a court ordered appointment with a psychiatrist. Hmmmm.

Like I said, my interest during the trial is more about seeing how the points of law are incorporated into the defense's case ... for me it is not about pro one side or another. So far as I am concerned there is no amount of justice in this world that will ever ever ever make up for what happened to Tori. If it were my child I would want both of them burned at the stake no matter what the verdicts were. Even that, I am afraid, would never be enough - it would not bring Tori back.


JMO
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  #703  
Old 04-08-2012, 09:41 PM
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This really made me cry. You'll see why when you look at the picture.

Tori Stafford: Family marks third anniversary of disappearance with visit to grave

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/a...visit-to-grave
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  #704  
Old 04-08-2012, 09:48 PM
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If you look at the last loop in the shoe its going INTO the shoe vs going out of the shoe right before you would tie. When the shoe lace goes into the last hole it directs which way the end of the shoelace is positioned.... Not sure if im explaing that right so example below LOL

Normal way to tie shoe, Notice lace coming Out of last hole away from the body



To have the lace going into the shoe ( towards the body ) on the last hole, tends to ( MOO ) tucking of the laces behing the tongue of the shoe.




My oldest has tucked her shoes like this for years, as she likes to be able to slip into them and out of them.
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  #705  
Old 04-08-2012, 09:49 PM
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A beautiful tribute to Tori
http://www.woodstocksentinelreview.c...kpw0U.facebook
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  #706  
Old 04-08-2012, 09:53 PM
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Originally Posted by ChaChaCha View Post
I am not really sure Jez .... In a trial, witness testimony is considered evidence, but since TLM and MR were co-accused, and much of the case against MR hinges on her testimony, it seems that the judge will caution the jurors about relying too much on TLM's testimony - that is why the earlier interviews with LE and her criminal records were allowed in - to show the jurors what type of person she is. They can choose to believe all or part of her testimony, or none at all. The LE interviews tho were not under oath (like she cares lol) so they aren't "evidence" but just to show how she changes the story and her behaviour at will. They do not have to believe that MR told her to abduct a child, that any of their "conversations" took place, that he raped the child (assuming no proof is presented). She just isn"t credible, and the judge needs to make sure the jury knows that just in case there is an appeal.

The other part of it is that the jury will be deciding on a finding - Murder 1, Murder 2 or manslaughter depending upon what they feel was the extent of MR's culpability. So it is important that they fully understand that TLM is not credible ... this isn't really a case of guilty or not guilty - the jury has options.

The defence will try to show that TLM is violent, coniving and volatile - and that her mindset on the day TS was abducted was to kill someone - hence the production of the disgusting letters, journal, Facebook, and the music that she was listening to at the time - which the defence will say she used to pump herself up.

The unfortunate part about relying on tweets and news reports is that we cannot hear the background activities - what the judge says to the jurors or to the lawyers ... a lot of the techie stuff is glossed over.

As for her prior knowledge of the discovery materials, much of what was presented in her case will be the same as in MR's case, and the judge will make sure too that the jury is aware of her being privy to the materials which gives her the possible ability to tailor her testimony to line up with the evidence. After all, she lied at her own sentencing, profusely apologized to the family and didn't come clean about the extent of her participation. The family has suffered more and longer because of her deceit.

There are no words to describe how evil she is. I hope she never gets out.

JMO
The interview with Smyth is evidence though, after some legal talks it was decided that it can be used as evidence and the jurors can believe all, some or none of what she said in it.

Also she confessed and her story for the most part hasn't changed based on evidence later presented. I know she lied about her did what and who's idea it was to buy the hammer but everything else remained the same from her confession until her testimony at MR's trial so I don't see how she has changed her story to fit either evidence presented to her when she waived her right to trial or what might have been presented to her before testifying at MR's Kwim?

JMO
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  #707  
Old 04-08-2012, 10:26 PM
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Originally Posted by maxfactor View Post
This really made me cry. You'll see why when you look at the picture.

Tori Stafford: Family marks third anniversary of disappearance with visit to grave

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/a...visit-to-grave
snipped from the link above...

They attended a charity race Friday in London, and were quite affected by a girl who wore a T-shirt in memory of Tori. She placed first in the 12 and under category, Stafford said.

“It was a tear-jerker, knowing the reason she was doing it,” Stafford said. “It’s proving that the story is affecting everyone, even
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  #708  
Old 04-08-2012, 10:36 PM
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Originally Posted by sillybilly View Post
I wrote this poem during Rodney`s K4K marathon, and sent to him as he was enroute to Jasper to release his purple balloon upward to his baby girl.

Today, hearing of all the purple balloons in Woodstock that are paying tribute to this darling child, I will post the poem here (can`t find Victoria`s memorial thread):

The Kiss of a Purple Balloon

Through the mist a shadow lifts
And transcends snow-capped peaks
Onward, upward, silently
Eternity it seeks

A mountain stands in silence
The rivers slow their tune
All nature takes a moment hush
To honour a purple balloon

No clouds hinder passage
As it gently floats above
The breezes sigh in tribute
To a father's gift of love

Carried high on sunbeams
Gliding in the light
Lifting higher, endlessly
Sunshine into starlight

Over there in midnight skies
Barely out of sight
Carried on a moonbeam
Dancing in the night

From golden glints of autumn sun
To a smile from a silver moon
Blue eyes shine from a twinkling star
And a kiss meets the purple balloon


Rest in Peace darling Victoria. You will never be forgotten.
Absolutely beautiful Silly! Thank you for sharing with us.
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RIP Tim. Justice will prevail


Victoria is the Latin word for 'victory' or 'conquer'. And conquer she did! RIP sweet Tori.

May 15/12, Michael Rafferty guilty; abduction, sexual assault causing bodily harm and murder, first degree. 25 years with no chance of parole. R.I.H. P.O.S.
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Old 04-08-2012, 10:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Salem View Post
Check out the video at this link: http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/r.../19469151.html

Reporter explains a couple of sitings on video of MR's car.

HTH,

Salem
Thank you for providing that link Salem. Yes if you watch the video closely, you see MR's car go by heading northbound on Fyfe Ave. and as stated by RR, in the next clip a couple minutes later you see TLM walking with Tori northbound also, heading toward the nursing home parking lot. I believe as TLM claimed MR was making sure TLM was going to follow through with his plan/dare.
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RIP Tim. Justice will prevail


Victoria is the Latin word for 'victory' or 'conquer'. And conquer she did! RIP sweet Tori.

May 15/12, Michael Rafferty guilty; abduction, sexual assault causing bodily harm and murder, first degree. 25 years with no chance of parole. R.I.H. P.O.S.
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  #710  
Old 04-08-2012, 10:57 PM
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Originally Posted by swedie View Post
Thank you for providing that link Salem. Yes if you watch the video closely, you see MR's car go by heading northbound on Fyfe Ave. and as stated by RR, in the next clip a couple minutes later you see TLM walking with Tori northbound also, heading toward the nursing home parking lot. I believe as TLM claimed MR was making sure TLM was going to follow through with his plan/dare.
I think this is an important part of her testimony too, asserts that he wasn't an unwilling dupe as his lawyer is trying to portray him, and it also adds credibility to what TLM says. I think actually the Crown has already shown a lot of things to corroborate what she says.
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  #711  
Old 04-08-2012, 11:23 PM
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Originally Posted by maxfactor View Post
This really made me cry. You'll see why when you look at the picture.

Tori Stafford: Family marks third anniversary of disappearance with visit to grave

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/a...visit-to-grave
It's good to see them smiling, that's what Tory would have wanted.
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  #712  
Old 04-08-2012, 11:34 PM
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We love you Victoria.
Beautiful poem SB.
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Old 04-08-2012, 11:34 PM
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Originally Posted by ChaChaCha View Post
In my opinion TLM is a practiced liar ... she is as sly as a fox. And likely much more intelligent that MR....

In any case, I would think that the judge will caution the jury very carefully about relying on TLM's testimony as she is not credible, was a co-accused and had prior knowledge of the evidence in the case prior to her taking the stand. The judge's warning is called a Vetrovec warning,

Generally, a Vetrovec warning must address the following factors:
a) the evidence of certain witnesses is identified as requiring special scrutiny;
b) the characteristics of the witness that bring his or her evidence into serious question are identified;
c) the jury is cautioned that although it is entitled to act on the unconfirmed evidence of such a witness, it is dangerous to do so; and,
d) the jury is cautioned to look for other independent evidence which tends to confirm material parts of the evidence of the witness with respect to whom the warning has been given.

My understanding is that under some circumstances (especially in lengthy trials that are quite complex) the udge will give the jury "helpful direction on the question of sifting the evidence where guilt or innocence might, and probably will turn on the acceptance or rejection, belief or disbelief, of the evidence of one or more witnesses”.

IMO the jury will be cautioned not to take everything that TLM says as gospel.
IMHO I don't see what intelligence has to do with what these two deviants did to Tori. If slyness is the word you're referring to in regards to intelligence, IMHO it was MR who was the mastermind. Remember all the evidence we have heard so far to show how MR tried to cover up their crime? From having Tori crouch on all the junk on the floor of his car, covering her with MR's pea coat, to having TLM go into HD to purchase the hammer so he wouldn't be captured on store surveillance and her fingerprints would be on the murder weapon. Then we have MR yelling at TLM and Tori for Tori to stay down on the floor of his car, also having TLM go check for cars and keep a watch out while he sexually assaulted Tori and MR having TLM to erase tire tracks as he drove back down the laneway after he buried Tori under boulders. Plus, plus, plus. So much evidence and what has come to light so far, has rang so true from TLM's testimony. The Crown has already instructed the jurors; made mention of TLM's credibility. HTH.

http://www.citytv.com/toronto/cityne...vevideo/191488

But, the testimony Gowdey explained with the most caution was that of Terri-Lynne McClintic, who has already pleaded guilty to first degree murder in this case. He told jurors they will "unquestionably be disturbed" by what McClintic tells them from the witness stand, but her testimony is important to the crown's case. He also told the jury that McClintic is currently serving a life sentence for ...

http://www.am980.ca/Channels/Court/home.aspx?pn=2

"When you have heard her evidence you will unquestionably be disturbed by the choices that she made with Michael Rafferty to bring this all about," Gowdey said. "I expect that her credibility will be a major issue in this case. It is because she had such a significant role in what happened that she's able to give us so much detail.

"Listen to her evidence carefully and cautiously."


http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2012/03...n_1320358.html
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RIP Tim. Justice will prevail


Victoria is the Latin word for 'victory' or 'conquer'. And conquer she did! RIP sweet Tori.

May 15/12, Michael Rafferty guilty; abduction, sexual assault causing bodily harm and murder, first degree. 25 years with no chance of parole. R.I.H. P.O.S.
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Old 04-08-2012, 11:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maxfactor View Post
I think this is an important part of her testimony too, asserts that he wasn't an unwilling dupe as his lawyer is trying to portray him, and it also adds credibility to what TLM says. I think actually the Crown has already shown a lot of things to corroborate what she says.
I think it is also significant that MTR was caught on video tape cruising around the school without TLM. I know we don't know for absolute certainty that he was trolling or thinking about an abduction, but when I step back and look at the big picture that is exactly what it looks like to me.

Or maybe TLM had told him she was going to pick up a little girl from school that day and he was just being proactive and looking for a parking space.
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Old 04-08-2012, 11:38 PM
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My bold and underlined portion. In May 2009, TLM blamed MR for the murder because she felt it would seal his fate, he would get a 25 year sentence for the murder, her reasoning; she didn't want him free to sexually assault any other children. My understanding is TLM has been counselled and informed about the facts of first degree murder. By January when she made her full confession she did so knowing MR would be charged also with murder because Tori died while in their possession. That put her mind at ease then knowing MR would not be free to rape any other children again. JMHO

During disturbing testimony this week, the 21-year-old McClintic told the court that she inflicted fatal blows to Tori by kicking and hitting her head with a hammer.

But the issue of credibility was raised in court this week, and the jury was told of a confession from McClintic dated May 24, 2009.

That confession came five days after McClintic was charged in Tori's death. In the 2009 confession, McClintic said Rafferty killed Tori.

McClintic pleaded guilty two years ago to Stafford's murder. She is serving a life sentence with no chance of parole for 25 years.

When asked Friday why she once blamed Rafferty for the death, McClintic said that her intention was to ensure that Rafferty would never be able to harm a child again.

But the jury was instructed by the judge that they cannot rely on the 2009 statement, and to use only McClintic's testimony from this week.


http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/CanadaAM/2...-trial-120316/
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RIP Tim. Justice will prevail


Victoria is the Latin word for 'victory' or 'conquer'. And conquer she did! RIP sweet Tori.

May 15/12, Michael Rafferty guilty; abduction, sexual assault causing bodily harm and murder, first degree. 25 years with no chance of parole. R.I.H. P.O.S.

Last edited by swedie; 04-08-2012 at 11:52 PM.
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Old 04-08-2012, 11:42 PM
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,....you are not alone in wondering who is reading this forum to gather info for the defense but remeber many important chapter from the CROWN are not told yet !!!!!!.......IMO and I honestly pray that the truth shall be unfolded ....Rafferty was there seen on video several times passing Tori's school that day ....proof was given on several things but let us see what was on that gym bag and the significant chalk marks all over the pee coat which hide tori 3 years ago in the back of his car... ....so much more shall be presented in chapters to follow....step by step .....april 2009 phone records too were mentioned to his friend....interesting few weeks to come ...get ready FOLKS ....we all want JUSTICe ofr tori! ...robynhood..
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Old 04-08-2012, 11:43 PM
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I think I have eaten too much Easter chocolate and it has affected my brain. Can someone please explain to me why we are discussing the shoes in the pic from MR's mother's house and why we are diagramming shoe tying options? I don't get it. LOL

Thanks.
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Old 04-08-2012, 11:48 PM
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Originally Posted by brighidin View Post
I think I have eaten too much Easter chocolate and it has affected my brain. Can someone please explain to me why we are discussing the shoes in the pic from MR's mother's house and why we are diagramming shoe tying options? I don't get it. LOL

Thanks.
I think that can be attributed to sleuthy attention to detail.
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Old 04-08-2012, 11:57 PM
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thanks allison for the awesome song by Alan Jackson ! Yes that poem is extremely beautiful SB...I will never ever forget this day 3 years ago ...I listen to cp24 all night as they haunted for months and kept repeading their efforts to find Tori....when I saw the recent place the shewas put in Mount forest ......I was a horrified that anyone could do this !....looking forward to FINALLY hearing the evidence ....read most each thread and almost all the posts as this tugs on my heart as I love kids! ...I am happy I found websleuth site as I feel we are united here ...we all want justice for TORI!..RIP little sweet angel .....robynhood
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Old 04-09-2012, 12:05 AM
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Originally Posted by myzzy View Post
If you save the picture and edit it, u can zoom pretty close and notice its tied that way as the other shoe is not, its tied correctly as if someone would tie them on their own. thats why i think i found it more odd.
Problem being...we have no idea whose shoes they are. To me they look like ladies sneakers. MR's mothers? They are not Pumas which seemed to be MR's choice of athletic footwear. MOO. Good catch though myzzy.
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Victoria is the Latin word for 'victory' or 'conquer'. And conquer she did! RIP sweet Tori.

May 15/12, Michael Rafferty guilty; abduction, sexual assault causing bodily harm and murder, first degree. 25 years with no chance of parole. R.I.H. P.O.S.
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Old 04-09-2012, 01:43 AM
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I think there have been arguments made that how the jury is chosen has a huge affect on the outcome trials here in the US.

It looks the jury selection process is different in Canada, so at least we don't have to worry about that too much.


Quote:
"Therefore, the parties in a legal dispute have been able to afford to hire trial consultants. In Canada, jury selection is a far more restrictive process where very little information about prospective jurors can be obtained. So a trial consultant focusing only on this area will probably not have a busy career."
http://www.collegefortn.org/Career_P...P3DPAXXAP3DPAX

Up until recently I never would have thought that how a jury was chosen could have such a dramatic effect on the verdict...
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Old 04-09-2012, 07:25 AM
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Originally Posted by swedie View Post

During disturbing testimony this week, the 21-year-old McClintic told the court that she inflicted fatal blows to Tori by kicking and hitting her head with a hammer.

But the issue of credibility was raised in court this week, and the jury was told of a confession from McClintic dated May 24, 2009.

That confession came five days after McClintic was charged in Tori's death. In the 2009 confession, McClintic said Rafferty killed Tori.

McClintic pleaded guilty two years ago to Stafford's murder. She is serving a life sentence with no chance of parole for 25 years.

When asked Friday why she once blamed Rafferty for the death, McClintic said that her intention was to ensure that Rafferty would never be able to harm a child again.

But the jury was instructed by the judge that they cannot rely on the 2009 statement, and to use only McClintic's testimony from this week.


http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/CanadaAM/2...-trial-120316/
RSBM
Earlier Wednesday, jurors were shown portions of a videotaped statement McClintic gave to police on May 24, 2009, just weeks after Tori vanished.

In the video, McClintic tells OPP Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth that it was Rafferty who killed Tori, not herself — the opposite of what she has testified in court.

Michael Rafferty is seen in a police cruiser after leaving court on March 14. (Dave Chidley/Canadian Press)
On Wednesday, Judge Thomas Heeney told jurors that the videotaped statement will now be part of the evidence that can be used to determine the facts in the present trial.

Previously, the judge had said the jury could only use the video statement to determine the credibility of McClintic as a witness.

Heeney said the jury can accept all, some or none of McClintic's statement, just as they can with her previous testimony. However, Heeney noted that the statement is not sworn testimony, but instead is an interview with police.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/...wednesday.html

Last edited by Jezbel; 04-09-2012 at 07:36 AM.
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Old 04-09-2012, 07:29 AM
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Originally Posted by myzzy View Post
Happy Easter everyone.

Barley caught up but found in one the photos of the evidence something "sticking out" that caught my attention and it has no baring on the case i dont think but just stuck out to me as a "HMM"

The last photo of the entrence to MR home where the entrence table is. there are 2 pairs of shoes, One is pink sandles the other is a pair of running shoes.. THe laces are tied and tucked behind the tounge of the shoe

[IMG][/IMG]
Doesn't it look like these ones are tied the same way, only on opposite shoes? One shoe laced over the tongue and one under?

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Old 04-09-2012, 07:50 AM
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It does, how strange. I wonder if this is related to the odd sock that now and again goes missing when I do my wash......
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Old 04-09-2012, 07:56 AM
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Originally Posted by daisy.faithfull View Post
I think it is also significant that MTR was caught on video tape cruising around the school without TLM. I know we don't know for absolute certainty that he was trolling or thinking about an abduction, but when I step back and look at the big picture that is exactly what it looks like to me.

Or maybe TLM had told him she was going to pick up a little girl from school that day and he was just being proactive and looking for a parking space.
I don't have time to look for the links right now, but I had been keeping track of the times from the video evidence shown at the trial. From my list, I have:

9:04 - the car was seen near the smoking area, at CASS I assume
2:19 - TLM was at the employment centre. When she left, she walked home and says that MR was at her house, asked her to go to Guelph with him and they drove by the school.
3:05 - the car drove by the school (so is this when TLM was with him?)
3:20 - the car is at the Esso station and the school bell rings
3:25 - Tori leaves the school
3:30 - the car goes north down Fife and pulls into the retirement home
3:32 - TLM is caught on video walking down the street with Tori
3:33 - the car leaves the retirement home and drives north on Fife

From this, it's possible they had planned this out. Or it could also be possible that TLM said she had to pick someone up after school before she could go. He went for gas while she waited at the school, then went to pick them up. It would be interesting to know why he was originally going to go to Guelph alone, then changed his mind and decided to invite her (according to TLM).
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