17 yo Trayvon Martin Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #18

[raeann]

Originally Posted by Inabsentia

I can think of several other ways Zimmerman could have gotten an injury to the back of his head that evening, if any such injury exists. Moo
Could you please elaborate on why you find it so imagination straining to see Teayvon losing a fight to Zimmerman? You have said this a number of times, and I don't think you have expained how you have come to feel this way. I would really like to know your thoughts on this.

We have witness reports that on TWO known occasions, Zimmerman PICKED UP AND THREW a grown adult woman across the room. Assuming that a small to average adult woman would weigh at least 125 to 135 pounds or so....it is only pure logic to assume that the extra 15 pounds of Trayvon's weight would be of no consequence to Zimmerman in an altercation that he himself was prepared for and instigated by stalking the victim. If he twice before LIFTED AND THREW an adult woman, surely he could hold his own with a young boy!

jmo

[LambChop]

Originally Posted by frenchvixen

How do you know they are pulling everything from the websites? They can't change GM's police report though?

I meant SPD's website. It still appears on the media one's I believe. Thanks

[csziggy]

Originally Posted by Chris_Texas

That entire 911 call reads like a script for a self defense claim. It's practically perfect.

1. Establish backstory: "We've had some break-ins.."

2. Identify bad guy: "He's up to no good, he's on drugs or something, definately messed up"

3. Establish Concerns: "He's staring at me"

4. Elevate Concerns: "He's coming towards me"

5. Establish DANGER: "He's got his hand in his waistband!"

6. Elevate DANGER: "Something is wrong with him! He's coming to check me out! He's got something in his hand! How long until an officer gets here?"

The only problem with this is that it seems likely, to me, that none of it actually happened. In this 911 call Zimmerman is trying to paint this kid as a menacing gun packing gangbanger, and himself as a calm law abiding guardian of the community forced to take him down. And whether the kid is armed or not, it's right there on the 911 tape that Zimmerman had probably cause to think he was.

And, in my opinion, Zimmerman knew it -- he knew exactly what he was saying. He had a gun and in my opinion he really wanted to use it.

The question to ask is this: does ANY of this sound plausible given what we know of Trayvon's following actions (running away, expressing his concerns to his girlfriend, etc)? Did Trayvon REALLY go strutting towards Zimmerman, hand in his waistband like a gangbanger was packing heat, or was this just a set up?

JMO MOO etc

Some of his previous calls were similar down to the exact same phrases:
http://media.miamiherald.com/smedia/...iAJG.So.56.mp3

Police release watch captain’s previous calls

George Zimmerman’s calls show interest in the mundane and in suspicious outsiders.

By Frances Robles
frobles@MiamiHerald.com

From open garage doors to kids dashing into the street and “suspicious characters,” George Zimmerman, neighborhood watch captain at Retreat at Twin Lakes, was on it.

The Seminole County Sheriff’s Office on Monday release tapes of six calls to the police non-emergency number in which Zimmerman called in mundane goings-on at his Sanford townhouse complex — including four times he saw black men loitering.

On the tapes, Zimmerman sounds as if he’s reading from a script, often starting with “We’ve had a lot of break-ins our neighborhood.” In one October call, he said two “suspicious characters” in a white Impala were “just hanging out, loitering.” Another black man in pajama pants and a leather jacket showed up on trash day last month, while two other men spotted in early August matched the description of burglars his wife had seen, he said.

Just as he did with Miami Gardens teenager Trayvon Martin, who was black, Zimmerman sometimes said, “I don’t know what his deal is.”

Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/1...#storylink=cpy

BBM

He also avoided giving his address on at least on call.

IMO, JMO, etc

[Adrienne37]

Originally Posted by raeann

We have witness reports that on TWO known occasions, Zimmerman PICKED UP AND THREW a grown adult woman across the room. Assuming that a small to average adult woman would weigh at least 125 to 135 pounds or so....it is only pure logic to assume that the extra 15 pounds of Trayvon's weight would be of no consequence to Zimmerman in an altercation that he himself was prepared for and instigated by stalking the victim. If he twice before LIFTED AND THREW an adult woman, surely he could hold his own with a young boy!

jmo

I agree raeann. I think it speaks volumes about the type of person Zimmerman is to know that he can put his hands on a woman in any type of aggressive manner whatsoever. If you will hit or throw a woman, you have no trouble doing that to a kid. Additionally, there were at least two documented instances of him abusing women, the first at the party and the second his fiance.


~jmo~

[LambChop]

Originally Posted by JeannaT

How many times can you bang your head on the ground in 44 seconds? A lot.

Even 10 seconds of banging your head on the ground is enough to cause deadly injuries -

I'm certain his injuries, however severe or slight they may be, have been documented. I feel like I've seen enough documentation of them in the CNN video, but I would bet there are much better photos out there.

I think one bang on cement GZ would have been senseless, two I would think he'd be barely conscious. Repeatedly I doubt he would be able to even pull his gun out. No one saw them on cement only grass. Witness statements, EMT clearing GZ's within minutes of his injuries do not add up to life threatening injuries. Plus the lockup video is showing marks on top of his head, not the back which would be consistent with his head banging on the cement. So until we see a report of his injuries I think it is still a question that is up in the air.

I'm still trying to visualize how someone can bang your head on cement repeatedly when you have no hair??????? jmo

[JeannaT]

Originally Posted by Marshmallow

when Mr Martin decided to defend himself against his attacker/assailant Mr Zimmerman he had every right to fight off this man who stalked then confronted and attacked him. It was Mr Martin's right to fight off his attacker. Sadly Mr Zimmerman chose to first attack, then kill.

You and I see it differently. I don't think that Zimmerman, who was carrying a gun, would choose to physically attack Trayvon. Makes no sense to me.

[JeannaT]

Originally Posted by csziggy

Some of his previous calls were similar down to the exact same phrases:
http://media.miamiherald.com/smedia/...iAJG.So.56.mp3



BBM

He also avoided giving his address on at least on call.

IMO, JMO, etc

Yes. Because he didn't know where Trayvon was, and feared his address would be overheard by him.

[LambChop]

Originally Posted by JeannaT

You and I see it differently. I don't think that Zimmerman, who was carrying a gun, would choose to physically attack Trayvon. Makes no sense to me.

What does make sense is that GZ may have tried to detain TM, stop him from leaving until LE arrived. Isn't that why GZ followed TM? jmo

[LambChop]

Originally Posted by JeannaT

Yes. Because he didn't know where Trayvon was, and feared his address would be overheard by him.

So GZ was already expressing a fear that TM would do him bodily harm. jmo

[passionflower]

Originally Posted by LambChop

I think one bang on cement GZ would have been senseless, two I would think he'd be barely conscious. Repeatedly I doubt he would be able to even pull his gun out. No one saw them on cement only grass. Witness statements, EMT clearing GZ's within minutes of his injuries do not add up to life threatening injuries. Plus the lockup video is showing marks on top of his head, not the back which would be consistent with his head banging on the cement. So until we see a report of his injuries I think it is still a question that is up in the air.

I'm still trying to visualize how someone can bang your head on cement repeatedly when you have no hair??????? jmo

Also did we ever her if there was GZ blood on the cement?
When my mom fell and cut her head.......blood was everywhere
before we could pick her up.

[JeannaT]

Originally Posted by LambChop

What does make sense is that GZ may have tried to detain TM, stop him from leaving until LE arrived. Isn't that why GZ followed TM? jmo

I can see that. I don't think that's the most likely, but I can see a situation where GZ may have put his hand on Trayvon's shoulder, although I don't think that's what happened. Maybe. It's possible.

That doesn't mean that GZ has to die for doing that. At the point where he was being pummeled, he had every right to shoot to kill.

This case is an example of two hotheads getting crosswise with each other. But that doesn't mean Zimmerman gives up his right to live.

[JeannaT]

Originally Posted by Marshmallow

my son was a wrestler as well. He would have been the one assumed to lose but went to States twice because it isn't always the one we think will win who takes the matches.

If only Mr Zimmerman had chosen to stay in his vehicle and allow the real law enforcement to do their job instead of taking it upon himself to assail Mr Martin <<< my opinion.

Naah. I bet I would have mentally picked him as the winner. ;D

[JBean]

Originally Posted by JeannaT

My son is a grappler, and when I go to grappling tournaments I can almost always tell who will win the match just by glancing up at the two opponents on the mat before the match begins. It's not height or weight, or really anything tangible. I think actually it's not some hoodoo psychic skill I have, my guess is almost everyone in the audience can look at two men and tell which will win the match.

When I look at GZ and Trayvon, I pick Trayvon. It's my opinion.

Personally,I would pick the one with the gun to come out on top every time.

Comparing an evenly matched grappling tournament with 2 parties that know what to expect from one another in terms of a fair fight is hardly what we had in this situation.

[Adrienne37]

I would still really love to know just exactly how Trayvon was able to bang Zimmerman's head on the concrete and cause an injury way up there on his head? I really can't picture that in my mind. I guess Trayvon was holding Zimmerman by his feet, lifting him off the ground, and banging his head causing the injuries that would render him barely conscious, one step away from diapers and being spoon fed and for the life of me, I really can't figure out why Zimmerman wasn't rushed to the ER that night since he was barely conscious. He tried so hard to make everything else fit into his perfect puzzle, to lay the foundation for his self-defense claim, why in the world not go to the hospital to get your injuries documented?



~jmo~

[Adrienne37]

Originally Posted by JeannaT

I can see that. I don't think that's the most likely, but I can see a situation where GZ may have put his hand on Trayvon's shoulder, although I don't think that's what happened. Maybe. It's possible.

That doesn't mean that GZ has to die for doing that. At the point where he was being pummeled, he had every right to shoot to kill.

This case is an example of two hotheads getting crosswise with each other. But that doesn't mean Zimmerman gives up his right to live.

Do you happen to have a link handy that shows Trayvon as being a hothead?



~jmo~

[JeannaT]

Originally Posted by JBean

Personally,I would pick the one with the gun to come out on top every time.

Comparing an evenly matched grappling tournament with 2 parties that know what to expect from one another in terms of a fair fight is hardly what we had in this situation.

Yes. And that's how it worked out. Grappling is for fun, though, and the opponents don't have to defend their lives. They can "tap out" and the match stops immediately.

Too bad GZ couldn't do that.

[LambChop]

Originally Posted by JeannaT

I can see that. I don't think that's the most likely, but I can see a situation where GZ may have put his hand on Trayvon's shoulder, although I don't think that's what happened. Maybe. It's possible.

That doesn't mean that GZ has to die for doing that. At the point where he was being pummeled, he had every right to shoot to kill.

This case is an example of two hotheads getting crosswise with each other. But that doesn't mean Zimmerman gives up his right to live.

When you put your hand on someone who views it as a threat it's battery. Confronting someone who views you as a threat is an assault. If GZ tried to detain TM by touching him, TM had every right to resist. jmo

[csziggy]

Originally Posted by frenchvixen

How do you know they are pulling everything from the websites? They can't change GM's police report though?

They did it yesterday.

Trayvon Martin Investigation

The office of the State Attorney, 4th Judicial Circuit, State Attorney Angela Corey has requested that the City of Sanford remove all reports, videos and audio pertaining to the Martin/Zimmerman case from the website. Their office has provided legal justification for the action and they believe further access to the information will have an adverse effect on their efforts to come to a resolution to this investigation.
http://www.sanfordfl.gov/index.html

[raeann]

Originally Posted by JeannaT

Yes. And that's how it worked out. Grappling is for fun, though, and the opponents don't have to defend their lives. They can "tap out" and the match stops immediately.

Too bad GZ couldn't do that.

BBM

He COULD have....he SHOULD have......too bad he DIDN'T do that.....



jmo

[Inabsentia]

Originally Posted by JeannaT

My son is a grappler, and when I go to grappling tournaments I can almost always tell who will win the match just by glancing up at the two opponents on the mat before the match begins. It's not height or weight, or really anything tangible. I think actually it's not some hoodoo psychic skill I have, my guess is almost everyone in the audience can look at two men and tell which will win the match.

When I look at GZ and Trayvon, I pick Trayvon. It's my opinion.

When you say "the imagination" and not "my imagination" it seems to imply that your incredulousness should be universal. Thanks for clarifying.

[rotterdam]

O/T. My 21 year old son finally got a full time job at a small sign company several weeks ago. Yesterday , they gave him four black free hoodies with the company name on the back in white letters. Just for the record.

[csziggy]

Originally Posted by Concerned Papa

This recording clears up where the body of TM was located.

Lying in the grass [1:29]......Behind 2831 Retreat View Circle in the backyard [1:52]

This is the residence of Selma Mora Lamilla and her roommate Mary Cutcher.

Mr. Martin was about 35 feet off from the location he showed us. I can't fault a grieving father for that. I'd still be trying to remember my own name.

**Please accept my apologies for any confusion caused by the earlier image posted last night showing the Retreat View addys. I overlooked the fact that the building has 6 units as opposed to the 5 that I counted on Twin Trees**

Maybe the police did not give Tracy Martin an address, just told him "At the end of the last building in this row of townhouses" or some such language. Mr. Martin could have assumed that it was at the far end of the building, which was where he was in the videos of his walk through. Instead, according to the ambulance audio, it was at the end nearest where Mr. Martin was staying.

IMO, JMO, etc.

[JeannaT]

Originally Posted by raeann

BBM

He COULD have....he SHOULD have......too bad he DIDN'T do that.....



jmo

I think maybe you don't know the term "tap out".

That's when one opponent taps on the other opponent, and that signals the end of the match.

No, GZ couldn't "tap out" of a fight with Trayvon. It wasn't a game.

[Inabsentia]

Since we are talking about grappling as a sport I wanted to repeat a post I made in an earlier thread. Hope that's okay, I type too slowly to do it over anew.


I just wanted to say that I find it extremely difficult to believe that George Zimmerman could have been getting the worst of it in a fight with Trayvon Martin. I find it extremely difficult to believe that George Martin could have been afraid of suffering great bodily harm from Trayvon Martin. I feel this so strongly for two reasons.

First, using the weights reported by both families Trayvon weighed between 140 and 145 pounds, and George Zimmerman weighed 190. Are these weights accurate? I don't know for sure, but the police report weights seem to be guesses so I am going to go with them. I suspect 190 is a little light for Zimmerman but I will go with it. These weight differences would put them 4 or 5 weight classes apart in professional boxing, and at least 4 weight classes apart in high school wrestling. The heavier fighter would never be allowed into the ring with the lighter because of the unfair advantage he would have.

Secondly, George Zimmerman is reported to have multiple years of experience as a bouncer/private security. This is not a field you survive in for months, let alone years, if you are easily frightened at the possibility of getting hit. This is not a field you last long in if you do not know how to fight, and more importantly, how to restrain someone who is trying to hurt you without hurting them. You must be able to face down and remove people who are drunk, belligerant and possibly way larger than you. I find it impossible to believe that anyone who spent years as a bouncer could be reduced to those wails of terror in less than two minutes by a skinny, unarmed kid he outweighed by forty or fifty pounds. Moo
Last edited by Inabsentia; 04-05-2012 at 09:54 AM. Reason: Grammar

[LambChop]

Originally Posted by rotterdam

O/T. My 21 year old son finally got a full time job at a small sign company several weeks ago. Yesterday , they gave him four black free hoodies with the company name on the back in white letters. Just for the record.

Hope the writing on the back is in NEON. jmo