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Old 04-12-2012, 01:30 PM
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Mike Knoll: Hank Daniszewski's noon trial update:

Two neighbors of Michael Rafferty said they saw a car seat in a garbage pile front of his home.

Michael Griswold and David Pushie said, both residents of Tennyson Street, said they saw the car seat, covered by a couch during a spring clean up week in Woodstock on April 2009 about a week after Victoria Stafford disappeared.

Police officials testified the bottom portion of Rafferty's rear car seat was missing when it was seized in May and was never located.

Griswold said the car seat appeared to be ripped with a sharp object.

Terri-Lynne McClintic testified Rafferty told her to cut out part of the seat because it could not be cleaned.

Defense lawyer suggested to Griswold that he saw Rafferty remove the seat earlier to install speakers but Griswold said he did not recall that.

Griswold said the rear seat was in the car when he helped Rafferty move his car from Guelph a year earlier to move in with his mother on Tennyson Street.

The court also heard from a woman who briefly dated Rafferty at about the same time. She said his car seemed very dirty and littered and the rear seat appeared to be covered with a blanket.

She said Rafferty appeared "nervous" and "needy" and she moved to break off the relationship quickly.
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  #227  
Old 04-12-2012, 01:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Macright View Post
so the seat was removed the end of March and then thrown out with the general pickup in the area mid April...scratch another from TLM statement about cutting out parts of a back seat and thus the reason TS had to sit on the floor...wonder when we will find out the "car wash" was a figment of her imagination...I still believe he was there at the scene but his role is what I am having difficulty in trying to figure out... I also don't think he was "dating" TLM..more likely using her to obtain drugs... as they say..."hell has no fury"...
huh? I think that Tory was on the floor because they wanted her out of site.
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  #228  
Old 04-12-2012, 01:31 PM
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London Free Press‏@RaffertyLFPReply
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Pushie described it as the seat portion of a back seat He said the clean up happened about a week after Easter in 2009
1:47 PM - 12 Apr 12via web DetailsReply
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understand that BUT if you will read back further the witness ALSO said that MR removed the seat March 29th and it was put out for cleanup the week after Easter.....
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  #229  
Old 04-12-2012, 01:32 PM
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Originally Posted by daisy.faithfull View Post
Is it possible that that was an error on the part of the journalist/tweeter?

I guess none of us here are specialists at this stuff, but where else would sperm come from? I'm going to look on google some more..........
I think you're probably right, an error. Couldn't find another source for sperm on my search.
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  #230  
Old 04-12-2012, 01:34 PM
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Originally Posted by matou View Post
@AM980_Court
  • Griswold says he noticed Rafferty remove the seat and put it in his shed March 29th, 09. He is read his synopsis, now remembers.
@AM980_Court
  • Derstine asks if chunks were cut out of the seat. Griswold says no. Just one cut. No more questions.

does not the above stated by the witness that MR removed the seat March 29th....please someone correct me if I am reading this incorrectly....thus the reason I said there was no back seat at the time of the murder....
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  #231  
Old 04-12-2012, 01:36 PM
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sorry didn't post that correctly..brain thinking but fingers not staying in sync..what I meant was TLM said she cut pieces out of a seat that from what we heard today did not exist at the time of the murder..so scratch that from her statement of truth.. she also mentioned that little TS had to sit on the floor in the back so that would seem to have some truth to it IF the seat had been removed March 29 as the witness said today...
Or it's quite possible the first witness has his dates mixed up. Or the seat was returned to the car for a time (and different reason) and removed again.
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  #232  
Old 04-12-2012, 01:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Sailor Bug View Post
Mike Knoll: Hank Daniszewski's noon trial update:

Two neighbors of Michael Rafferty said they saw a car seat in a garbage pile front of his home.

Michael Griswold and David Pushie said, both residents of Tennyson Street, said they saw the car seat, covered by a couch during a spring clean up week in Woodstock on April 2009 about a week after Victoria Stafford disappeared.

Police officials testified the bottom portion of Rafferty's rear car seat was missing when it was seized in May and was never located.

Griswold said the car seat appeared to be ripped with a sharp object.

Terri-Lynne McClintic testified Rafferty told her to cut out part of the seat because it could not be cleaned.

Defense lawyer suggested to Griswold that he saw Rafferty remove the seat earlier to install speakers but Griswold said he did not recall that.

Griswold said the rear seat was in the car when he helped Rafferty move his car from Guelph a year earlier to move in with his mother on Tennyson Street.

The court also heard from a woman who briefly dated Rafferty at about the same time. She said his car seemed very dirty and littered and the rear seat appeared to be covered with a blanket.

She said Rafferty appeared "nervous" and "needy" and she moved to break off the relationship quickly.

Perhaps the ripped seat that Griswold saw is the one that was in the car at the time Tori was taken and because of the rip in the seat "fluids" leaked inside and that is perhaps what TLM was told to cut out. The seat seen by DP was likely the same seat but with more "damage". And perhaps the reason it was seen covered by a blanket previously by girlfriends, etc. is because he was attempting to hide the original rip. MOO

Last edited by Latole; 04-12-2012 at 01:37 PM. Reason: More to add ...
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  #233  
Old 04-12-2012, 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Macright View Post
so the seat was removed the end of March and then thrown out with the general pickup in the area mid April...scratch another from TLM statement about cutting out parts of a back seat and thus the reason TS had to sit on the floor...wonder when we will find out the "car wash" was a figment of her imagination...I still believe he was there at the scene but his role is what I am having difficulty in trying to figure out... I also don't think he was "dating" TLM..more likely using her to obtain drugs... as they say..."hell has no fury"...
Where is the proof that the seat was removed in March?

Because Derstine said so?

If he wasn't "dating" TLM, why is her DNA mixed with his sperm on his front passenger car seat? Why did he have pictures of her in a motel room wearing his t-shirt on his SD card? Why is there video of them attending a movie?

MOO
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  #234  
Old 04-12-2012, 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by CarrieBean View Post
Or it's quite possible the first witness has his dates mixed up. Or the seat was returned to the car for a time (and different reason) and removed again.

yes that is possible but you know we could go back and forth on this till the cows come home...I am only going by what the witness said under oath and I am sure the jury will also.... I think we will have to agree to disagree on this and other points...respectfully.....JMO
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  #235  
Old 04-12-2012, 01:40 PM
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Originally Posted by matou View Post
Question: I general, which human tissues and fluids contain sperm fractions?
I found this: If you're asking if we can get a DNA profile from semen that contains no sperm, then the answer is no. Sperm is the only component of semen that contains DNA. I guess it is possible that someone might shed a few skin cells into the semen, but it would be pretty unlikely.
Here:
Sperm fraction? - Straight Dope Message Board


I'm not finding much else, but I'm still looking.

Salem
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  #236  
Old 04-12-2012, 01:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CarrieBean View Post
Or it's quite possible the first witness has his dates mixed up. Or the seat was returned to the car for a time (and different reason) and removed again.
I hope this is something that the Crown points out.
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  #237  
Old 04-12-2012, 01:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Macright View Post
understand that BUT if you will read back further the witness ALSO said that MR removed the seat March 29th and it was put out for cleanup the week after Easter.....
[color="Green"]Derstine asks Griswold if he saw Rafferty put the car seat in the shed - [/COLOR]Griswold says no,
Derstine asks Griswold if he saw Rafferty remove the car seat late in March to install speakers

Griswold said he saw a ripped car seat in the garbage pile in front of Rafferty's house There was a love seat on top


Griswold said the spring cleanup was around April 15 ,2009 He said he looked at the garbage pile in front of Rafferty's house



It sounds like Derstine has suggested it was end March.

This is the direct quote from LFPress tweet, can't speak of any other tweets.

Tweet prior to that
London Free Press‏@RaffertyLFPReply
Retweet

Griswold is reviewing a prior statement he made to police in May 2009 to refresh his memory
London Free Press‏@RaffertyLFP



Griswold recalls a spring cleanup week He said there was garbage in front of Rafferty's house

1:28 PM - 12 Apr 12via web
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Prayers for Jun Lin, his family and those that love him.
Justice is patient, relentless in its pursuit and is on the march for Justin Lin....

Last edited by snoofer; 04-12-2012 at 01:56 PM.
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  #238  
Old 04-12-2012, 01:44 PM
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RBBM: What the heck doess it mean then? If it doesn't come from sperm, why do they call it "sperm fraction" and where else could it come from? That makes no sense????

Salem
No it doesn't make sense at all. I sure hope the jurors are given science lessons about sperm and semen. My head is hurting trying to figure that one out. Crazy!
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Victoria is the Latin word for 'victory' or 'conquer'. And conquer she did! RIP sweet Tori.

May 15/12, Michael Rafferty guilty; abduction, sexual assault causing bodily harm and murder, first degree. 25 years with no chance of parole. R.I.H. P.O.S.
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  #239  
Old 04-12-2012, 01:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Macright View Post
yes that is possible but you know we could go back and forth on this till the cows come home...I am only going by what the witness said under oath and I am sure the jury will also.... I think we will have to agree to disagree on this and other points...respectfully.....JMO
I think it was a tweeting error, desrstine suggested that he took the back seat out in march to add speakers, the witness did not say he did, i'll try or someone try to find the info of his testimony exactly
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  #240  
Old 04-12-2012, 01:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Sailor Bug View Post
Mike Knoll: Hank Daniszewski's noon trial update:

Two neighbors of Michael Rafferty said they saw a car seat in a garbage pile front of his home.

Michael Griswold and David Pushie said, both residents of Tennyson Street, said they saw the car seat, covered by a couch during a spring clean up week in Woodstock on April 2009 about a week after Victoria Stafford disappeared.

Police officials testified the bottom portion of Rafferty's rear car seat was missing when it was seized in May and was never located.

Griswold said the car seat appeared to be ripped with a sharp object.

Terri-Lynne McClintic testified Rafferty told her to cut out part of the seat because it could not be cleaned.

Defense lawyer suggested to Griswold that he saw Rafferty remove the seat earlier to install speakers but Griswold said he did not recall that.
Griswold said the rear seat was in the car when he helped Rafferty move his car from Guelph a year earlier to move in with his mother on Tennyson Street.

The court also heard from a woman who briefly dated Rafferty at about the same time. She said his car seemed very dirty and littered and the rear seat appeared to be covered with a blanket.

She said Rafferty appeared "nervous" and "needy" and she moved to break off the relationship quickly.
Here Macright
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  #241  
Old 04-12-2012, 01:46 PM
Macright Macright is offline
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Originally Posted by Kamille View Post
Where is the proof that the seat was removed in March?

Because Derstine said so?

If he wasn't "dating" TLM, why is her DNA mixed with his sperm on his front passenger car seat? Why did he have pictures of her in a motel room wearing his t-shirt on his SD card? Why is there video of them attending a movie?

MOO

no Kamille not because Dirk said so...because I believe there is a written statement from this witness from that time frame (which he reminded him of and the witness agreed)..... I have stated my thoughts and the way I read the statements today and now I will move on so this will be my last post on that seat)... respectfully yours...... I also would like to add that I want the person or persons responsible for TS death to be dealt with according to the law but I also don't want someone convicted on the words of a known and proven liar....how sad would that be....as I have previously stated, there is no doubt in my mind that MR played some role in this but to what extent has yet to be proven...the fact that he was there should be enough to put him away for a number of years but lets make sure that the label on him is the correct one....accessory yes...murderer (no as per TLM)...sexual interference with TS...not proven and can't be....no evidence as per the pro's...that is why I am keeping an open mind on those other charges... his lifestyle is no concern of mine nor how many women he dated at one time etc....
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  #242  
Old 04-12-2012, 01:46 PM
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does not the above stated by the witness that MR removed the seat March 29th....please someone correct me if I am reading this incorrectly....thus the reason I said there was no back seat at the time of the murder....
I will have to go back in the threads to find the tweets but I believe Griswold is testifying to witnessing two separate incidents with the car seat. The first in March where the seat was removed with the inference being to install speakers thereafter the seat was put back in the car and the second incidence April 15 when the seat was put on the curb for trash collection. The latter was viewed by two different neigbours who both also testified that there was a large piece of furniture on top of the car seat on April 15th. They therefore could not see if the seat had chunks missing. JMO

At least this was my understanding. Hopefully someone will jump in if I'm wrong. I'll go looking for those tweets.

Last edited by Shasta; 04-12-2012 at 02:05 PM.
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  #243  
Old 04-12-2012, 01:48 PM
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so the seat was removed the end of March and then thrown out with the general pickup in the area mid April...scratch another from TLM statement about cutting out parts of a back seat and thus the reason TS had to sit on the floor...wonder when we will find out the "car wash" was a figment of her imagination...I still believe he was there at the scene but his role is what I am having difficulty in trying to figure out... I also don't think he was "dating" TLM..more likely using her to obtain drugs... as they say..."hell has no fury"...
JMO......I don't think the defense has ever intimated the MR wasn't in the car.

Their theory is that TLM lied about why VS was there, and she had her own plot brewing. The plot didn't work out and the police had become involved by then. TLM decided to murder VS to hide her involvement.

MR panicked when he returned to the car, didn't call LE, and tried to hide the evidence of the crime.

TLM claimed MR told her.......to help clean up because she was involved in it as much as he was. When TLM first made that statement........she accused MR of killing VS. Now that we know it was TLM who killed VS, it is more likely that TLM said that to MR.......IMO

IMO.......The Crown counted heavily on the testimony of TLM, but her changes in testimony and the background uncovered by the defense.........devastated her credibility.
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  #244  
Old 04-12-2012, 01:49 PM
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I think it was a tweeting error, desrstine suggested that he took the back seat out in march to add speakers, the witness did not say he did, i'll try or someone try to find the info of his testimony exactly
I think so too, and feeling like an idiot after searching the internet for what other body fluids sperm is found in.
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  #245  
Old 04-12-2012, 01:51 PM
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I found this: If you're asking if we can get a DNA profile from semen that contains no sperm, then the answer is no. Sperm is the only component of semen that contains DNA. I guess it is possible that someone might shed a few skin cells into the semen, but it would be pretty unlikely.
Here: Sperm fraction? - Straight Dope Message Board


I'm not finding much else, but I'm still looking.

Salem
What about guys that have been fixed? The old expression shooting blanks comes to mind lol. The car had a previous owner - is it possible he too used it as a love shack? I can't check right now, but if somebody wants to look into that.

Keeping in mind that the expert noted that it is possible for DNA to e deposited in layers.

The thought of the inside of that car makes me ill. Yech!
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  #246  
Old 04-12-2012, 01:51 PM
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I am confused as to why there was all this sperm from MR in his car when in this photo #45 http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/r.../19599961.html
Shows two different brands or type of condoms. I wonder if forensics tested Tori's shirt for latex?
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  #247  
Old 04-12-2012, 01:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Macright View Post
so the seat was removed the end of March and then thrown out with the general pickup in the area mid April...scratch another from TLM statement about cutting out parts of a back seat and thus the reason TS had to sit on the floor...wonder when we will find out the "car wash" was a figment of her imagination...I still believe he was there at the scene but his role is what I am having difficulty in trying to figure out... I also don't think he was "dating" TLM..more likely using her to obtain drugs... as they say..."hell has no fury"...
Actually this is taken out of context. He is saying when he saw the seat on March 29th there were no chunks out of it. NOT when it was seen in the trash pile.

HTH,

Salem
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  #248  
Old 04-12-2012, 01:57 PM
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Good lord, more girlfriends? Didn't he just move back to Woodstock at the beginning of the year? Is this number 6 or 7 within a 4 month period?

MOO
I want to say eight and nine according to my list.
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Victoria is the Latin word for 'victory' or 'conquer'. And conquer she did! RIP sweet Tori.

May 15/12, Michael Rafferty guilty; abduction, sexual assault causing bodily harm and murder, first degree. 25 years with no chance of parole. R.I.H. P.O.S.
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  #249  
Old 04-12-2012, 02:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Thinkzerz View Post
I am confused as to why there was all this sperm from MR in his car when in this photo #45 http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/r.../19599961.html
Shows two different brands or type of condoms. I wonder if forensics tested Tori's shirt for latex?
Maybe he only used a condom when his partner insisted that he do so.
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Old 04-12-2012, 02:04 PM
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I think it was a tweeting error, desrstine suggested that he took the back seat out in march to add speakers, the witness did not say he did, i'll try or someone try to find the info of his testimony exactly
LFP tweet is different from AM980 tweet posted by matou.
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Prayers for Jun Lin, his family and those that love him.
Justice is patient, relentless in its pursuit and is on the march for Justin Lin....
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