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George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin General Discussion threads All closed discussion threads about George Zimmerman and Trayvon Martin.Not open for posting- but there is plenty of reading.


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  #476  
Old 04-15-2012, 02:13 PM
jjenny jjenny is offline
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Originally Posted by Steft50 View Post
We know that GZ straddled Trayvon with a hand on his back per at least one of the witnesses. We know that the police arrived within about a minute. We know at this point no witness has claimed Trayvon moved himself after the shooting. When the autopsy is released we'll know more about when he died. I have asked if the police rolled him over to do cpr and no one seemed to know. However it does not appear that even if he had been rolled over, the spot he was in before being rolled still wouldn't have been near the supposed concrete GZ (and/or his spokes people) have claimed he was having his head bashed in at.
According to police report, I believe police did roll him over for CPR. Even if it doesn't say specifically he was rolled over, he had to be, since it would not be possible to do CPR on someone face down. The person needs to be flat on his/her back for CPR to be carried out. And police report definitely says they did CPR on him.
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  #477  
Old 04-15-2012, 02:13 PM
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Originally Posted by belle3 View Post
A physical altercation that would never had happened had a responsible person acted in a reasonable way, and never approached such a suspicious individual. All imo
IF that altercation took place to begin with. At this point we have no proof of it, only Zimmerman's word which IMO means nothing.

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  #478  
Old 04-15-2012, 02:13 PM
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Originally Posted by belle3 View Post
A physical altercation that would never had happened had a responsible person acted in a reasonable way, and never approached such a suspicious individual. All imo
Well, we can disagree on that all we want, that's not how the law is written. It's not illegal to approach someone who you find suspicious and ask them what they're doing.
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  #479  
Old 04-15-2012, 02:14 PM
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Just hope it was real bullies he hosed and not just some random kids he thought looked like bullies for no fathomable reason.
  #480  
Old 04-15-2012, 02:15 PM
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Originally Posted by TorisMom003 View Post
IF that altercation took place to begin with. At this point we have no proof of it, only Zimmerman's word which IMO means nothing.

MOO
No. It's not just Zimmerman's word. There were witnesses who saw the altercation.
I think all the 911 callers pretty much establish that physical altercation took place.
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  #481  
Old 04-15-2012, 02:16 PM
belle3 belle3 is offline
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Originally Posted by JeannaT View Post
Whatever GZ thought about Trayvon, and what Trayvon was doing didn't cause Trayvon's death.

It was the physical altercation that caused his death. So, IMHO, GZ wasn't wrong about that part.

Up until the physical altercation GZ would be completely in the wrong for shooting, punching, grabbing, etc.

Since we don't know who started the physical altercation - there were no witnesses - it would be very hard to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that it wasn't Trayvon.
This is exactly what caused his death. Gz assumptions of trayvons behavior caused him to actthe way he did that night. andit ended in the death of a young man. And on the flip side if we are to believe that tm started this then it was what trayvon was doing that caused this. So im confused.
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  #482  
Old 04-15-2012, 02:18 PM
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Originally Posted by JeannaT View Post
Well, we can disagree on that all we want, that's not how the law is written. It's not illegal to approach someone who you find suspicious and ask them what they're doing.
It is also not illegal to be a 17 year old male walking home in the rain with your hoodie up talking on the phone with your girlfriend and looking around you. Nor is it illegal to turn around and ask why someone is following you. However, apparently it is against the law to stalk someone and ask questions/demand answers........after all the SPD threatened to arrest anyone that did that to employees of the SPD.

MOO
  #483  
Old 04-15-2012, 02:19 PM
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Originally Posted by belle3 View Post
This is exactly what caused his death. Gz assumptions of trayvons behavior caused him to actthe way he did that night. andit ended in the death of a young man. And on the flip side if we are to believe that tm started this then it was what trayvon was doing that caused this. So im confused.
You and I view this stream of events differently.

Would you say that a child running into the street caused their death, or would you say being hit by a car caused their death.

That's the analogy here.

I'd say the child running into the street didn't cause the death. It was being run over by the car that caused it.

Similarly, GZ believing Trayvon was acting suspiciously didn't cause Trayvon's death. GZ following Trayvon didn't cause his death.

The physical altercation (that no one impartial knows who started) caused the death. IMHO as always.
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  #484  
Old 04-15-2012, 02:20 PM
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It was reported that GZ was crying in his cell the first night in jail. I wonder how many nights and days his parents have cried, mourned, and how they will for the rest of their lives. My heart truly goes out to all who loved Trayvon.
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  #485  
Old 04-15-2012, 02:22 PM
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Originally Posted by jjenny View Post
According to police report, I believe police did roll him over for CPR. Even if it doesn't say specifically he was rolled over, he had to be, since it would not be possible to do CPR on someone face down. The person needs to be flat on his/her back for CPR to be carried out. And police report definitely says they did CPR on him.
Which as I stated, doesn't really matter because he was to far away from concrete before he was moved.
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  #486  
Old 04-15-2012, 02:22 PM
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Originally Posted by JeannaT View Post
Well, we can disagree on that all we want, that's not how the law is written. It's not illegal to approach someone who you find suspicious and ask them what they're doing.
I never claimed it was illegal just unbelievably irresponsible.
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  #487  
Old 04-15-2012, 02:22 PM
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Originally Posted by JeannaT View Post
No, what I posted is true. Look up the board.
You posted this.

"I was intrigued about the time Trayvon got caught in school with the jewelry, the teacher noticed Trayvon was "acting suspiciously" and investigated, and found the jewelry and screwdriver in his possession."

That is not a true statement. There was no teacher, and it was not because he was acting suspicious that his bag was searched.


In October, a school police investigator said he saw Trayvon on the school surveillance camera in an unauthorized area “hiding and being suspicious.” Then he said he saw Trayvon mark up a door with “W.T.F” — an acronym for “what the f---.” The officer said he found Trayvon the next day and went through his book bag in search of the graffiti marker.

Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/2...#storylink=cpy

You can't just make up facts.
  #488  
Old 04-15-2012, 02:22 PM
JeannaT JeannaT is offline
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Originally Posted by TorisMom003 View Post
It is also not illegal to be a 17 year old male walking home in the rain with your hoodie up talking on the phone with your girlfriend and looking around you. Nor is it illegal to turn around and ask why someone is following you. However, apparently it is against the law to stalk someone and ask questions/demand answers........after all the SPD threatened to arrest anyone that did that to employees of the SPD.

MOO
They retracted that statement before the ink was dry on that statement.

Because it's not illegal.
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  #489  
Old 04-15-2012, 02:22 PM
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Velouria Velouria is offline
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Originally Posted by Donjeta View Post
Just hope it was real bullies he hosed and not just some random kids he thought looked like bullies for no fathomable reason.

And even then, it still constituted battery on a minor.
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  #490  
Old 04-15-2012, 02:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JeannaT View Post
You and I view this stream of events differently.

Would you say that a child running into the street caused their death, or would you say being hit by a car caused their death.

That's the analogy here.

I'd say the child running into the street didn't cause the death. It was being run over by the car that caused it.

Similarly, GZ believing Trayvon was acting suspiciously didn't cause Trayvon's death. GZ following Trayvon didn't cause his death.

The physical altercation (that no one impartial knows who started) caused the death. IMHO as always.
I'd say that a physical altercation would have NOT been possible had Zimmerman never followed Trayvon that night. Trayvon would not have been shot that night if Zimmerman did NOT have a gun on him. If Zimmerman had listened to the dispatcher and waited for SPD to arrive Tayvon would still be alive and Zimmerman would not be sitting in jail awaiting trial.

MOO
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  #491  
Old 04-15-2012, 02:23 PM
jjenny jjenny is offline
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Originally Posted by belle3 View Post
I never claimed it was illegal just unbelievably irresponsible.
And under SYG law, Zimmerman could even start the fight (not saying he did) and then use deadly force if he tried to escape but could not.
And since he claims he was on the ground getting beat up then he might not have been able to escape.
Prosecution will have to disprove his version of events beyond a reasonable doubt for them to get a conviction.
And as far as I can tell I have reasonable doubt a plenty.
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  #492  
Old 04-15-2012, 02:25 PM
JeannaT JeannaT is offline
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Originally Posted by Dr.Fessel View Post
You posted this.

"I was intrigued about the time Trayvon got caught in school with the jewelry, the teacher noticed Trayvon was "acting suspiciously" and investigated, and found the jewelry and screwdriver in his possession."

That is not a true statement. There was no teacher, and it was not because he was acting suspicious that his bag was searched.


In October, a school police investigator said he saw Trayvon on the school surveillance camera in an unauthorized area “hiding and being suspicious.” Then he said he saw Trayvon mark up a door with “W.T.F” — an acronym for “what the f---.” The officer said he found Trayvon the next day and went through his book bag in search of the graffiti marker.

Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/2...#storylink=cpy

You can't just make up facts.
Maybe we should drop this.

I'm honestly not understanding the difference between the two characterizations "hiding and being suspicious" and "behaving suspiciously" or however the exact wording went that GZ used in describing his read of Trayvon's behavior that night.

"Hiding and being suspicious" and "behaving suspiciously" are the same thing. That's a hair way to fine for me to waste any more time splitting. The entire point I'm making here, is that for some reason - to too adults, his behavior appears suspicious. I would like to see that behavior.
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  #493  
Old 04-15-2012, 02:26 PM
belle3 belle3 is offline
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Originally Posted by JeannaT View Post
You and I view this stream of events differently.

Would you say that a child running into the street caused their death, or would you say being hit by a car caused their death.

That's the analogy here.

I'd say the child running into the street didn't cause the death. It was being run over by the car that caused it.

Similarly, GZ believing Trayvon was acting suspiciously didn't cause Trayvon's death. GZ following Trayvon didn't cause his death.

The physical altercation (that no one impartial knows who started) caused the death. IMHO as always.
Yeah i get what you are saying and understand. But, if there was no altercation, and if gz did not get his head beat in, and the altercation was a struggle over the gun that gz threatened tm with, then would tray be dead if gz hadnt deemed him suspicious and determined not to let him go. And if i am to apply your logic then gz didnt really kill tm, the gun did.
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  #494  
Old 04-15-2012, 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted by JeannaT View Post
Well, we can disagree on that all we want, that's not how the law is written. It's not illegal to approach someone who you find suspicious and ask them what they're doing.
But it is illegal to attempt to detain someone which is, given GZ's frame of mind as seen in his own words to 911, what I think happened between those two buildings that night.
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  #495  
Old 04-15-2012, 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted by TorisMom003 View Post
In October, a school police investigator said he saw Trayvon on the school surveillance camera in an unauthorized area “hiding and being suspicious.” Then he said he saw Trayvon mark up a door with “W.T.F” — an acronym for “what the f---.” The officer said he found Trayvon the next day and went through his book bag in search of the graffiti marker.
Instead the officer reported he found women’s jewelry and a screwdriver that he described as a “burglary tool,” according to a Miami-Dade Schools Police report obtained by The Miami Herald. Word of the incident came as the family’s lawyer acknowledged that the boy was suspended in February for getting caught with an empty bag with traces of marijuana, which he called “irrelevant” and an attempt to demonize a victim.

Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/2...#storylink=cpy

Bolded by me
This tells a different story, that no one claimed Trayvon looked suspicious. So based on this, it is not the same as what Zimmerman did.
Don't you love how the screwdriver was described as a "burglary tool"?

"Honey, where is our Phillips burglary tool? I need to change a light switch plate."

Sometimes a screwdriver comes in handy during a burglary, but not all screwdrivers are guilty.
  #496  
Old 04-15-2012, 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted by TorisMom003 View Post
IF that altercation took place to begin with. At this point we have no proof of it, only Zimmerman's word which IMO means nothing.

MOO
There were also some witnesses who said they saw the two of them wrestling on the ground.
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  #497  
Old 04-15-2012, 02:28 PM
JeannaT JeannaT is offline
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Originally Posted by TorisMom003 View Post
I'd say that a physical altercation would have NOT been possible had Zimmerman never followed Trayvon that night. Trayvon would not have been shot that night if Zimmerman did NOT have a gun on him. If Zimmerman had listened to the dispatcher and waited for SPD to arrive Tayvon would still be alive and Zimmerman would not be sitting in jail awaiting trial.

MOO
I think that goes without saying.

Like if that guy behind me in line weren't in the grocery store, he wouldn't have hit the back of my ankle with his cart.
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  #498  
Old 04-15-2012, 02:28 PM
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Originally Posted by JeannaT View Post
Maybe we should drop this.

I'm honestly not understanding the difference between the two characterizations "hiding and being suspicious" and "behaving suspiciously" or however the exact wording went that GZ used in describing his read of Trayvon's behavior that night.

"Hiding and being suspicious" and "behaving suspiciously" are the same thing. That's a hair way to fine for me to waste any more time splitting. The entire point I'm making here, is that for some reason - to too adults, his behavior appears suspicious. I would like to see that behavior.
That has nothing to do with what I am saying. I am saying you made up a story about a dead child and posted it as fact and it was not.
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  #499  
Old 04-15-2012, 02:29 PM
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Originally Posted by JeannaT View Post
They retracted that statement before the ink was dry on that statement.

Because it's not illegal.
it sure does make you wonder about the spd and their interpretations of the law, doesnt it?
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  #500  
Old 04-15-2012, 02:30 PM
JeannaT JeannaT is offline
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Originally Posted by Dr.Fessel View Post
That has nothing to do with what I am saying. I am saying you made up a story and posted it as fact and it was not.
I didn't make up a story.

The POINT of my post, was how odd that two adults perceived Trayvon's demeanor as suspicious.

The rest of the details are again, hairs too fine for me to continue to split with you. And so I'm done. ;D
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