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George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin General Discussion threads All closed discussion threads about George Zimmerman and Trayvon Martin.Not open for posting- but there is plenty of reading.


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  #201  
Old 04-14-2012, 07:07 PM
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Originally Posted by jjenny View Post
Well in some cases public pressure led to actually innocent defendants being arrested in charge.
I know, and I am glad there is a group that fights for these people who are imprisoned falsely. But, there has to be a process.
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Old 04-14-2012, 07:07 PM
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Originally Posted by jjenny View Post
Well in some cases public pressure led to actually innocent defendants being arrested and charged. And even if defendant isn't innocent, defendant does have a right to a fair trial. And how is that going to be accomplished in the case of Zimmerman?

Why wouldn't GZ receive a fair trial?
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  #203  
Old 04-14-2012, 07:11 PM
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Originally Posted by jjenny View Post
And if defendant isn't guilty? Is that good too?
If the defendant is found not guilty in a court of law, that will be "good" in my book. I might not agree with the verdict, or I may depending on what new evidence comes to light at trial, but I will be satisfied that the legal system did its job.

I believe that is all most who have followed the case have wanted from the beginning. JMO etc.
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  #204  
Old 04-14-2012, 07:14 PM
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Originally Posted by jjenny View Post
So we should put a not guilty person on trial just because of public pressure? Is that what you are saying?
How do you know the person is not guilty without first going through a trial? Just because he said so?
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  #205  
Old 04-14-2012, 07:15 PM
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Originally Posted by IzzyBlanche View Post
If the defendant is found not guilty in a court of law, that will be "good" in my book. I might not agree with the verdict, or I may depending on what new evidence comes to light at trial, but I will be satisfied that the legal system did its job.

I believe that is all most who have followed the case have wanted from the beginning. JMO etc.
Well said.

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  #206  
Old 04-14-2012, 07:19 PM
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Originally Posted by jjenny View Post
Ca is different from FL because of SYG law.

At trial, the burden of proof will be on prosecution. Prosecutor will have to prove Zimmerman did not act in self-defense.

"Only then can she take the case to a jury, in front of which she will face a high legal burden to prove that the killing wasn't in self-defense."
http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/n...0#.T4oA9dnwGSo
The prosecution may have the burden of proving it was an unlawful killing aka 2nd degree murder aka not self defense-but if the defendant wants to get self defense in the jury instructions ( his affirmative defense)-he has got the burden of presenting some evidence -any evidence that it WAS self defense. If the defendant does not show any evidence whatsoever that it was in self defense the jury would not even be able to consider it.

IOW, in most cases the defense does not have to present anything. They can let the prosecution prove or not prove their case and it can go straight to the jury.

But in an affirmative defense the defense absolutely has the burden of putting on a case to show their position otherwise it doesn't make sense. KWIM? So the burden is also on the defendant- maybe to a different degree but they have a burden none the less.ETA: the prosecution may have a higher standard to reach-but they both have to prove to their respective degrees.
  #207  
Old 04-14-2012, 07:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Nova View Post
jenny, I'll allow there is considerable confusion over the SYG law. Most have described it as badly written. But we still have to consider the sources when we invoke these links.

The link you reference above is a panel discussion in Nevada by activists who are opposed to SYG in principle. 1. I'm not sure they are actually experts on the law; 2. they may be expected to present the law's ramifications in the worst possible light.
I agree with you that there is considerable confusion over how SYG applies at trial and, in particular, its interplay with a standard justifiable homicide defense. I am very accustomed to reading the dense and virtually indecipherable lol, and while I haven't devoted an extraordinary amount of time to it, I think I would've been able to draw a clear conclusion by now if there was one to be drawn. The question in my mind it whether it remains an "immunity" statute at trial and, if so, whether the preponderence burden on the defense in the SYG context changes after a preliminary hearing. I guess we shall see...
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  #208  
Old 04-14-2012, 07:21 PM
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OT watching TLC, Teens who Kill. Covering the case of Rachel Wade/Sara Ludemann. Rachel claimed self defense, it wasn't proven.
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  #209  
Old 04-14-2012, 07:30 PM
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Originally Posted by jjenny View Post
Sure does. If Zimmerman can not convince judge by "preponderance of the evidence" that he acted in self defense, the judge will allow prosecutor to take the case to trial. Zimmerman can again use self-defense at trial, and a prosecutor has to prove Zimmerman did not act in self-defense (beyond a reasonable doubt).
It is slightly more complicated than that, jenny, but upon further research I think I owe you an apology: Florida does seem to be an exception to the standard rules of affirmative defenses used elsewhere.

Here is a detailed discussion from a Jacksonville law firm. (Mods, I hope this is okay. It isn't MSM, but it is an expert source and therefore, IMO, better.)

http://www.husseinandwebber.com/flor...-of-force.html


As I understand the discussion there and assuming the defendant can't get a judge to dismiss the case under SYG before trial, the defendant still has the affirmative defense of "justifiable homicide" available to him. Under Florida law, the initial burden is on the defendant, but the burden is relatively low (and may not even require the defendant to take the stand). Once the defendant meets his affirmative defense burden, then the burden seems to shift back to the prosecutor to DISprove justifiable homicide beyond a reasonable doubt.

Whether GZ's mere say-so is enough to meet his burden remains unclear, however, per the sites I've found. Some even assert that nobody really knows how all these burdens will play out because none of them has been tested by appellate courts.

Totally jmo now: I won't be surprised if the prosecution argues that GZ's pursuit of TM despite the dispatcher's instruction proves that GZ intended to detain TM until police arrived. That might be construed as kidnapping, a felony which would negate any SYG claim. Again, this is just my speculation as to how they may try to circumvent any SYG problems.
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  #210  
Old 04-14-2012, 07:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Isabelle View Post
Oh yeah, mega money is really gonna help them. Only those who have lost a child can understand that NOTHING makes it better. It NEVER goes away. I couldn't understand why my mother and sister couldn't get over the death of their respective children, I know now and regret not being more supportive.


I never want to know your pain Don't regret, you didn't know the depths. It is a club nobody wants to join. Prayers for you and yours.
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  #211  
Old 04-14-2012, 07:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jjenny View Post
Ca is different from FL because of SYG law.

At trial, the burden of proof will be on prosecution. Prosecutor will have to prove Zimmerman did not act in self-defense.

"Only then can she take the case to a jury, in front of which she will face a high legal burden to prove that the killing wasn't in self-defense."
http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/n...0#.T4oA9dnwGSo
BUT in the trial, GZ and his lawyer can only use the regular self-defense law, not SYG.
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  #212  
Old 04-14-2012, 07:33 PM
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Frank Taaffe gets it right at 1:42 in this video. Wonder if that was his nickname for old George.

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  #213  
Old 04-14-2012, 07:37 PM
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Originally Posted by JBean View Post
The prosecution may have the burden of proving it was an unlawful killing aka 2nd degree murder aka not self defense-but if the defendant wants to get self defense in the jury instructions ( his affirmative defense)-he has got the burden of presenting some evidence -any evidence that it WAS self defense. If the defendant does not show any evidence whatsoever that it was in self defense the jury would not even be able to consider it.

IOW, in most cases the defense does not have to present anything. They can let the prosecution prove or not prove their case and it can go straight to the jury.

But in an affirmative defense the defense absolutely has the burden of putting on a case to show their position otherwise it doesn't make sense. KWIM? So the burden is also on the defendant- maybe to a different degree but they have a burden none the less.ETA: the prosecution may have a higher standard to reach-but they both have to prove to their respective degrees.
J, do you get the sense that the burden of proof for an affirmative defense is lower in Florida than in California? I've been a juror on a "self-defense" case in CA and while the defense's burden wasn't proof beyond a reasonable doubt, it seemed reasonably strict.

But I'm finding sites in Florida (mostly from criminal defense lawyers) that make the defendant's burden sound very low. Maybe that's just a marketing tool, but the Florida statute does say that once the defendant meets his burden, the State's burden returns in full force.
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  #214  
Old 04-14-2012, 07:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Nova View Post
Why surprised? It took a great deal of p.r. to get enough national attention to Trayvon Martin's story that the Florida attorney general was forced to take action.
Hi Nova.
There is more ways than one to skin a cat... and pulling out the racial card is just one game, there are others.
I always believe this "To the dead we owe only the truth"
I have seen the media has done a great job swaying public opinion... I always loved the facts and never just follow blindly...I want to know what really happened before I follow any direction. Letís not fabricate a case - it has been sensationalized without us knowing all the facts. We do not know Trayvon, we do not know what Zimmerman felt as he sized him up BUT I sure know that feeling of thinking someone is up to no good. I sure do know that I have to trust my mistrust, and if I see something I cannot ignore it.
I want to give Zimmerman a chance to clear himself. IF he can. But I do not want to play revenge and bury him without fully knowing. That is not just.
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  #215  
Old 04-14-2012, 07:40 PM
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  #216  
Old 04-14-2012, 07:45 PM
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Originally Posted by jjenny View Post
Nope, that is not correct. Prosecution will have to prove at trial Zimmerman did not act in self-defense.
Several legal experts have discussed this earlier in this thread. Their information is very different from your opinion. Are you a Florida attorney?
I will go back and find the.posts about this.
Respectfully, JMO.
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  #217  
Old 04-14-2012, 07:46 PM
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Good discussion on the case and the SYG defense, and Richard Hornsby is interviewed:

http://www.npr.org/2012/04/12/150507...zimmerman-case

Excerpts from Hornsby:

Quote:
If he decides there are no challenges worth making before the arraignment, he'll file a written plea of not guilty, and that arraignment will actually be waived, and it will never be held by the judge. Then after that, the next major thing I think the public will get to see is there will likely be a hearing on the Stand Your Ground motion, the defense - what we call an immunity hearing, where George Zimmerman will have to present evidence to establish that he was legally defending himself.

And if he establishes that by a preponderance of the evidence, then the judge will be required to dismiss the charge.
Quote:
Is it successful? No, I would not say that people are filing these motions left and right and winning. You know, I've filed maybe 15 motions, Stand Your Ground motions to dismiss, since the law has been implemented, and I've only won two or three of them at the - you know, in front of a judge. Because, again, the judge has to believe the defendant's version of the events and believe the defendant was reasonably defending himself.

And many times, if you have, you know, a defendant and a victim come in, and they're both equally credible, it's sometimes hard for the defendant to meet that burden. The judge says, well, I think a jury should decide this.

You know, the big issue in George Zimmerman's case is, of course, Trayvon Martin isn't around to tell his side of the story, and so the prosecutor is going to have to tell Trayvon Martin's story through circumstantial evidence and things of that nature.
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  #218  
Old 04-14-2012, 07:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Nova View Post
J, do you get the sense that the burden of proof for an affirmative defense is lower in Florida than in California? I've been a juror on a "self-defense" case in CA and while the defense's burden wasn't proof beyond a reasonable doubt, it seemed reasonably strict.

But I'm finding sites in Florida (mostly from criminal defense lawyers) that make the defendant's burden sound very low. Maybe that's just a marketing tool, but the Florida statute does say that once the defendant meets his burden, the State's burden returns in full force.
Hi Nova. Yes that is my understanding of it as well. I think what would be very helpful would be reading the jury instructions because that would basically lay it all out for us.
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Old 04-14-2012, 07:47 PM
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Songline,
no one is going to bury George.
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Old 04-14-2012, 07:48 PM
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Sorry I will take a break.
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  #221  
Old 04-14-2012, 07:55 PM
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Hi Nova. Yes that is my understanding of it as well. I think what would be very helpful would be reading the jury instructions because that would basically lay it all out for us.
I've read the model jury instructions and found them to be most UNHELPFUL lol.

There are here in case you are interested

http://www.floridasupremecourt.org/j...ructions.shtml
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  #222  
Old 04-14-2012, 08:04 PM
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http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sho...=168920&page=5

I have posted a thorough review of the allegation that the girl waited 3 weeks to make any report. See the post above.

The Moderators have given much leeway to discuss this allegation. At this point it is time to move on because the MSM facts, do not back up the allegation.

We are asking that you treat this child as a victim, not make wild accusations about her or her motivations unless you can back it up. You can question the truth in what she is saying and you can discuss how it may look or be challenged in court. But the personal characterizations and discussions about this minor are not allowed. She is a victim.
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  #223  
Old 04-14-2012, 08:05 PM
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I've read the model jury instructions and found them to be most UNHELPFUL lol.

There are here in case you are interested

http://www.floridasupremecourt.org/j...ructions.shtml
I see what you mean: they basically just repeat the language of the appropriate statute. I've read a lot of jury instructions in my time, both as a juror and as a legal secretary and they are often as clear as mud.

FWIW, the "no duty to retreat" instruction is the same in California (or at least it was when I was a juror). The jury can't require the defendant to retreat from a deadly threat because backing up or turning to run may get the defendant killed.

That's why SYG has been called unnecessary by many prosecutors and police officers.
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  #224  
Old 04-14-2012, 08:06 PM
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Originally Posted by grandmaj View Post
I have done extensive research on this issue of allegations that the girlfriend did not come forward for 3 weeks.

I'm going to post it and then, after talking to other moderators and Admins, it has been decided this issue has been discussed to infinity and beyond, and we need to move on.

The girlfriend is considered an innocent victim and thus she should only be discussed in terms of whether you believe her testimony or not. You have a right to discuss why you don't believe her testimony. But we are not going to allow wild theories without proof to back them up. These are the consistent rules for victims and this young girl is considered a victim.

If you read the links you will learn that she was represented by counsel to protect her interests soon after she learned she was the last person to talk to Trayvon before he was murdered.

(1) The records of the phone calls I'm going to post are not Travon's but the girlfriends. If you listen to the taped interview, ABC made a statement that they exclusively got the call logs, that police had them, but never called the girlfriend. They vetted the girlfriend's call logs before running the story on 3/21.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/trayvon-mar...7#.T4nZBdl0nWB

(2) Next I went looking for information about the funeral. There really is little out there because remember this case didn't take off in the news until about the second week, but more so the third week in March when everyone was resigning and the media started really delving into this case.

After not finding anything else I went to Isabelle Zehnder who is a friend of WS and her articles in the Examiner are allowed. I should have gone there first, but at 4am I wasn't very sharp.

I found the following:
Snip:

Trayvonís girlfriend, who is a minor and whose name will not be released, learned the day after Trayvonís wake that she was the last person, other than his killer, to speak with him alive.

Another snip:

"Trayvon's girlfriend just wants justice, period. She was extremely fearful of the Sanford Police Department and was scared of retaliation for cooperating with the investigators.

ďHer mother is very protective of her and will make sure she is safe. It's tragic that this teenager's life has now been changed forever, and the innocence of her youth is essentially gone."

This is all in the story with quotes from Radar on-line who broke the story.

http://www.examiner.com/unsolved-cas...d-hospitalized

Now, still not being able to find anything about the date of the funeral I began listening to the funeral director talk about lack of injuries pointing to him saying the struggle doesn't add up. I watched videos rather than rely on the typed word. I got Lucky.

At approx 1:47 in the video posted at the link below(go full screen) there is a quick scan of the memorial folder used for Trayvon's Memorial Service. I believe the date is the 3rd, but it could be an 8 also. Trayvon's service would have been on one of those two dates. The date is at the bottom of the Memorial Folder for his service. Maybe someone with better eyes can zoom in on it and capture the date.

http://miami.cbslocal.com/2012/03/29...-martins-body/

Remember now what we are told in the Examiner Article.... The girlfriend found out the day after the visitation. So that puts it in the first week of March less than a week from Trayvon's death, if the March 3rd date is correct. It would also point to the phone records being hers and her calling the Sanford Police on March 2, 2012.
Just bumping Grandmaj's post about Trayvon's girlfriend.
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  #225  
Old 04-14-2012, 08:08 PM
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