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  #326  
Old 04-19-2012, 09:26 AM
cityslick cityslick is offline
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Originally Posted by Karmady View Post
Thanks! Yes, the Miranda context is different and relevant and I've wondered about that, too. The practice here is, generally, to mirandize someone as your "slappin' the cuffs" on. I did not follow the Anthony trial at all. Did the policy have some strategy specific to her that they didn't mirandize her before interrogation? I've read that she's got quite an "interesting" personality. Or were they just that stupid? lol
I think the issue I see if if he wasn't mirandized but yet still placed 'under arrest', that's going to be all sorts of trouble for SPD and in turn, the prosecution. You can see in the video they are clearly conversing with him and I get the impression he's talking to them about what happened even there.
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  #327  
Old 04-19-2012, 09:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Karmady View Post
Thanks! Yes, the Miranda context is different and relevant and I've wondered about that, too. The practice here is, generally, to mirandize someone as your "slappin' the cuffs" on. I did not follow the Anthony trial at all. Did the policy have some strategy specific to her that they didn't mirandize her before interrogation? I've read that she's got quite an "interesting" personality. Or were they just that stupid? lol
It would take volumes to answer that question and would just open a whole 'nother can of worms that would detract from the ongoing discussion of this case, IMO.

The detectives handling that case were FAR from stupid!

MOO
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  #328  
Old 04-19-2012, 09:34 AM
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As some one who has never used photoshop, could you please explain what about that pic makes you think it has been photoshopped? Are there signs, or evidence that we should look at that makes you think that? TIA


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Originally Posted by Emeralgem View Post
Looks photoshopped to me..JMHO
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  #329  
Old 04-19-2012, 09:36 AM
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Originally Posted by cityslick View Post
As far as I understood it, it was a still from the video, just had the color enhanced. Nothing was 'put' on his head.
Taking a low resolution image and cranking up the contrast and sharpness can reveal details that don't really exist. The marks seen on Zimmerman's head may be real, or they may be artifacts caused by image compression.
  #330  
Old 04-19-2012, 09:37 AM
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http://blogs.chicagotribune.com/news...-timeline.html

The above has a map, similar to Papa's....here you can see where GZ went wrong...I believe he never was heading back to his vehicle and was always in pursuit of Trayvon....
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  #331  
Old 04-19-2012, 09:37 AM
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Good morning everyone :-) Last night I watched Trayvon's parents and his brother on Anderson. What a sweetheart Trayvon's brother is. I have no reason to believe Trayvon was not just like his brother. It brought tears to my eyes to hear Jahvaris speak of Trayvon in the present tense, :-( Sybrina sure does make some beautiful babies :-)
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  #332  
Old 04-19-2012, 09:41 AM
PaintingAnemone PaintingAnemone is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gitana1 View Post

After taking a year of constitutional law and a semester of criminal procedure, I know what constitutes an arrest. Criminal charges usually follow an arrest, but not always.

When you are handcuffed, placed in a squad car, taken to the police station and questioned, that is an arrest. There is a ton of case law on this.

However, there have been cases where, under such circumstances, the court deems it not an arrest when it comes to gathering evidence (fruit of the poisonous tree) or throwing out confessions due to Miranda.
Sanford Chief of Police and the city of Sanford; an official explanation is front and center on their web site specifically addressing why he was NOT arrested here: http://www.sanfordfl.gov/index.html.
It clearly states:

Quote:
Why was George Zimmerman not arrested the night of the shooting?
When the Sanford Police Department arrived at the scene of the incident, Mr.
Zimmerman provided a statement claiming he acted in self defense which at the time was supported by physical evidence and testimony. By Florida Statute, law enforcement was PROHIBITED from making an arrest based on the facts and circumstances they had at the time. Additionally, when any police officer makes an arrest for any reason, the officer MUST swear and affirm that he/she is making the arrest in good faith and with probable cause. If the arrest is done maliciously and in bad faith, the officer and the City may be held liable.
It doesn't say that he wasn't charged, it says that he wasn't ARRESTED. According to this sources, and countless others, he was NOT arrested, and I would presume that Sanford PD has more accurate information on that than just an assumption that handcuffs equal an arrest.

Last edited by Kimster; 04-19-2012 at 10:10 AM. Reason: We don't need to get personal. Thanks!
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  #333  
Old 04-19-2012, 09:42 AM
CathyinTexas CathyinTexas is offline
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Originally Posted by pcrum12 View Post
Right side looks like a laceration to me - JMO
If he had lacerations there would be blood but nevertheless those injuries are not conducive with the manner which we were told he sustained them. I can see how he could have been injured in a scuffle but I don't think Trayvon literally attacked him as he has alleged. I can see Trayvon struggling for his life though.
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  #334  
Old 04-19-2012, 09:44 AM
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Originally Posted by cityslick View Post
As far as I understood it, it was a still from the video, just had the color enhanced. Nothing was 'put' on his head.
I am not trying to be argumentatitive about this but I am not clear on the meaning of the digital enhancement and whether the technique distorts in some way. If enhancement and coloration is done to reveal a pattern then okay, we are seeing a pattern. I am seeing perpendicular dark marks on the top of his head and red marks to the right. But does that mean that this is now an accurate coloration of what we would have seen in person had we been standing there that night?

This is hard for me to articulate but let me try. Let's say that you have a blurry photo which includes a sign with some gray colored words on a white background and you can't make them out but need to know what they say for some reason. If there's a digital enhancement and they come out stark black on white and you can read them, then that's all you need. But if the actual color of those words has some meaning as well, then you have a distortion because the words were gray in real life.
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  #335  
Old 04-19-2012, 09:45 AM
CathyinTexas CathyinTexas is offline
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Question for the lawyers

Do you think the story (stories) GZ told his father and Frank Taffee will be allowed in court? If so, would they be called to testify on the stand, and if so, will the interviews where they conveyed his story to the media be played in court as well. I hope so, because if not, he can get on the stand and say something different and get away with it. My hope is that with these different accounts, and the absurdity of them, that the jury will not believe GZ.
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  #336  
Old 04-19-2012, 09:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grammieto5 View Post
Good morning everyone :-) Last night I watched Trayvon's parents and his brother on Anderson. What a sweetheart Trayvon's brother is. I have no reason to believe Trayvon was not just like his brother. It brought tears to my eyes to hear Jahvaris speak of Trayvon in the present tense, :-( Sybrina sure does make some beautiful babies :-)
It brought me to tears, Grammie....Jahvaris is so articulate...he talks about Trayvon in present tense is heartbreaking...he looks at it like his brother is away and will be coming back home...sadly, he never will be back home to them in the physical sense..

When my brother was first murdered, I used to wait for him to come through the front door ready for dinner...I once set a place for him at the table..then realized he's not here..It's a hard emotion to overcome, especially such an horrific, tragic loss of a young teen who had his whole life planned out...

I pray they find peace and solace and celebrate Trayvon's short life..
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  #337  
Old 04-19-2012, 09:49 AM
cityslick cityslick is offline
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Originally Posted by Footwarrior View Post
Taking a low resolution image and cranking up the contrast and sharpness can reveal details that don't really exist. The marks seen on Zimmerman's head may be real, or they may be artifacts caused by image compression.
The irony to me though is I didn't hear or read a whole lot of complaints that the video was 'too low of a resolution' to properly show any injuries, it was just assumed he had no injuries.
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  #338  
Old 04-19-2012, 09:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LiveLaughLuv View Post
That's what was said about Judge Perry..and the guilty walked free...
This was my first thought, not only did the guilty walk free but as far as I'm concerned Judge Perry did not have control of his court room.
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  #339  
Old 04-19-2012, 09:54 AM
LynnM LynnM is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cityslick View Post
The irony to me though is I didn't hear or read a whole lot of complaints that the video was 'too low of a resolution' to properly show any injuries, it was just assumed he had no injuries.
Well again, how do we know that the video is too low of a resolution to see injuries if they were there? It looks a whole lot better than most security footage.
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  #340  
Old 04-19-2012, 09:57 AM
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Originally Posted by LynnM View Post
Well again, how do we know that the video is too low of a resolution to see injuries if they were there? It looks a whole lot better than most security footage.
It was low resolution because you couldn't make out details of the officers in a lot of the frames. There were points where facial features were obscured/blurry. It's even joked that GZ's ear is missing in the enhanced still. That's a product of low resolution.
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  #341  
Old 04-19-2012, 10:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PaintingAnemone View Post
With all due respect to your year of con law and semester of criminal procedure, I think I'll take the word of the Sanford Chief of Police and the city of Sanford; an official explanation is front and center on their web site specifically addressing why he was NOT arrested here: http://www.sanfordfl.gov/index.html.
It clearly states:



It doesn't say that he wasn't charged, it says that he wasn't ARRESTED. According to this sources, and countless others, he was NOT arrested, and I would presume that Sanford PD has more accurate information on that than just an assumption that handcuffs equal an arrest.
I agree, either gitana is correct that he was arrested and SPD is lying about him being arrested or he really wasn't. If they didn't mirandize him, they for sure are not going to say they 'arrested' him because it gets them into all sorts of hot water, he's basically testifying to the officers in the video.
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  #342  
Old 04-19-2012, 10:10 AM
PaintingAnemone PaintingAnemone is offline
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Originally Posted by cityslick View Post
I agree, either gitana is correct that he was arrested and SPD is lying about him being arrested or he really wasn't. If they didn't mirandize him, they for sure are not going to say they 'arrested' him because it gets them into all sorts of hot water, he's basically testifying to the officers in the video.
For one thing, it makes no sense for PD to lie about whether he was arrested or not, especially when the lack of an arrest is a primary point that galvanized the movement that his parents spearheaded to push for an arrest.

But let me put it another way: Martin's parents have called repeatedly for an arrest. Zimmerman's family has not at all argued against the fact that he was not arrested that night, nor have his lawyers. Apparently the Sanford PD, the Mayor, both of the families involved, and every MSM outlet (and non-MSM as well) and all the experts at their disposal are in agreement that this man was not arrested on the night of the crime. So why is this even an argument?
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  #343  
Old 04-19-2012, 10:12 AM
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Originally Posted by rossva View Post
As some one who has never used photoshop, could you please explain what about that pic makes you think it has been photoshopped? Are there signs, or evidence that we should look at that makes you think that? TIA
it appears that the color/hue/saturation has been fiddled with making what may be scratches appear to be wounds.
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  #344  
Old 04-19-2012, 10:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Steft50 View Post
I've been trying to work something out in my head for the last couple of days and that is the gun. When did GZ pull it out of the holster? I'm not convinced that he was walking around with it out, but I can't get my head around the story that he pulled it out while Trayvon was on top of him either. And here is why.....(please feel free to correct anything I may have wrong that is already documented as "known".)


The story goes that at some point Trayvon was straddling GZ banging his head against the ground, and that is when GZ got his gun and shot Trayvon. What I have trouble with is how did GZ get his gun if Trayvon was sitting on him in a straddle position?

GZ was wearing a jacket, so, he would have had to get under, around or over one of Trayvons legs, under his jacket if it hadn't ridden up during the physical fight to reach his gun right? The story goes GZ couldn't dislodge or stop Trayvon any other way, but that would mean Trayvons legs were tight against GZ right? I would think the most logical place to straddle a person would be around the stomach/waist?

So how did GZ, who supposedly couldn't dislodge Trayvon, get his hand under, over or around a fighting person on top of him as well as under this jacket to reach his gun? What am I missing here?
I almost wish Steft50 hadn't made this post last night. Now I'm hung up on trying to understand how someone on the bottom.....



getting brutally beaten.....brains smashed on the sidewalk.....loosing consciousness .....short of breath.....and swallowing his own blood.....could ever reach into the waist on the INSIDE of his britches.....that his attacker is sitting on.....



draw out his little gun.....



and shoot his attacker in the chest, killing him.

I just don't get it.
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  #345  
Old 04-19-2012, 10:14 AM
Adrienne37 Adrienne37 is offline
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Originally Posted by CathyinTexas View Post
Do you think the story (stories) GZ told his father and Frank Taffee will be allowed in court? If so, would they be called to testify on the stand, and if so, will the interviews where they conveyed his story to the media be played in court as well. I hope so, because if not, he can get on the stand and say something different and get away with it. My hope is that with these different accounts, and the absurdity of them, that the jury will not believe GZ.
According to Richard Hornsby, anything that Zimmerman has personally shared with any of his friends or family would subject them to being called as a witness in his trial. Won't that be an absolute hoot?

(I believe this information can be found on thread #225, post #661).

~jmo~
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  #346  
Old 04-19-2012, 10:16 AM
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Originally Posted by grammieto5 View Post
This was my first thought, not only did the guilty walk free but as far as I'm concerned Judge Perry did not have control of his court room.
Please, let's not argue the Anthony case here. There's an entire forum on Websleuths for that. A lot of things made that case very complicated and turn out the way it did. I followed it from the start, too. It would take volumes to explain it. Perry is still a good judge that just had a bad case. I am not going to assume this new judge for Trayvon is going to go down the same road. This is a different case, a vastly different crime altogether with a competent defense attorney, an actual crime scene, and I am sure it's a lot more straightforward than Casey's case. I am sure Trayvon's case stands a much better chance of turning out better than Casey's did.
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  #347  
Old 04-19-2012, 10:21 AM
Adrienne37 Adrienne37 is offline
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Personally myself, Bonaparte and ex-Police Chief Bill Lee have zero credibility to me. The only one so far in the city of Sanford that has any credibility left whatsoever is Mayor Jeff Triplett.


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  #348  
Old 04-19-2012, 10:21 AM
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Here is the copy of the enhanced version on ABC's site. Not quit as dramatic as the one shown above but marks still showing.

Due to the elongated marks I wonder if his head was hitting the edge right where the grass and the sidewalk meet.

Also when the first video aired I thought GZ had a bald spot at the top of his head but after seeing his court video that is not the case, he doesn't have a bald spot. Was his head beaten to the point that the hair was removed or would swelling have caused the appearance of bald skin?

http://abcnews.go.com/US/trayvon-mar...ry?id=16055412

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  #349  
Old 04-19-2012, 10:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adrienne37 View Post
Personally myself, Bonaparte and ex-Police Chief Bill Lee have zero credibility to me. The only one so far in the city of Sanford that has any credibility left whatsoever is Mayor Jeff Triplett.


~jmo~
Wouldn't the fact of if he was arrested be in any of the SPD reports though? Wouldn't they notate that they arrested and mirandized GZ and brought him in for questioning?
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  #350  
Old 04-19-2012, 10:32 AM
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Originally Posted by PaintingAnemone View Post
For one thing, it makes no sense for PD to lie about whether he was arrested or not, especially when the lack of an arrest is a primary point that galvanized the movement that his parents spearheaded to push for an arrest.

But let me put it another way: Martin's parents have called repeatedly for an arrest. Zimmerman's family has not at all argued against the fact that he was not arrested that night, nor have his lawyers. Apparently the Sanford PD, the Mayor, both of the families involved, and every MSM outlet (and non-MSM as well) and all the experts at their disposal are in agreement that this man was not arrested on the night of the crime. So why is this even an argument?
My assumption is that he went to the station voluntarily. Even though he was in cuffs-they may have asked him if he would come into the station for questioning and cuffs may be SOP after a shooting death.
I think this issue would only become important if down the road Zimmerman said he was cuffed, detained and transported against his will because that COULD constitute an arrest and that he should have been mirandized.
But for now I concur he was not arrested but understand how it could be arguable to a judge if he did not go along willingly.

JMHO of course.

ETA: It occurs to me that it could also be SOP to cuff anyone that is involved in a shooting death and detain without being elevated to the level of arrest. Since they knew Zimmerman was the shooter I am betting this is what happened. However it still could be an argument for the defense in the future to get any of his statements thrown out.

More of my opinion.
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