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  #576  
Old 04-19-2012, 03:56 PM
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Originally Posted by LolaMoon08 View Post
That does it for me... George Zimmerman "reaches for" --- and the gun is seen by Trayvon -- so I can only come to the conclusion that Trayvon thought he was reaching for the gun (which I believe he was anyways) and that right there, IMO, completely erases any SYG defense!

The minute he showed that gun in any threatening manner (which reaching for -- is threatening) he's done!

MOO
I totally agree.....

So here we have a guy following Tray, Tray walks fast, run, whatever, to get away from this guy...the guy still catches up with him and for whatever reason he reaches in his waistband and Tray began to fight....fight for his life...is that correct?

If that is correct then Tray was STANDING HIS GROUND for sure.

JMO
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  #577  
Old 04-19-2012, 03:57 PM
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Originally Posted by LolaMoon08 View Post
Yup... sure have! But, they were told this directly from George Zimmerman's father. George's father was there for the walk-through. He knows what happened, right? Why would George Zimmerman's father tell them that Trayvon seen the gun as George was "reaching for" his phone? To make it look better for his son. He knows his son was reaching for that gun.

These are also George's "friends." Why would they say something like that if George's father didn't say it?

MOO
Exactly. And I don't know about you, but if someone confronted me, and there was a phone and a gun on them, I would not assume they were reaching for a phone, KWIM? And if I only saw the gun, I would believe that person was reaching for it. I don't know if Trayvon ever even saw GZ's cellphone, but I'm pretty sure he saw that gun. I don't blame TM if GZ's act of reaching for something made TM panic, thinking GZ was going for the gun.
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  #578  
Old 04-19-2012, 03:58 PM
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And I would also like to point out that I have said from the very beginning that I believed there was no physical altercation until George brought that gun out. I have always thought George was guilty of killing Trayvon and I never did believe it was self-defense. I believe Trayvon was defending himself against a man with a gun.

MOO
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  #579  
Old 04-19-2012, 03:58 PM
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Originally Posted by LolaMoon08 View Post
Case closed for me! It doesn't have to be case closed for anyone else, it's my opinion that this right here erases any form of SYG defense George had that night.

Parents lie every day for their children... some do it a lot more than others. Sometimes to the point where it is criminal.

MOO
I agree. Which is why I'd prefer to see some hard evidence, testimony about details from GZ himself, from detectives who testify at trial, to know exactly what happened. All of this hearsay is noise.
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  #580  
Old 04-19-2012, 03:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Phoenixfla View Post
Sorry - Still not following you. Why would LE want GZ to be let go? What would they gain from letting him go?
Because Trayvon was perceived as a low life, probably a drug user and burglar even if no record, because he was one of those A** holes that always got away. And GZ was an upstanding citizen that volunteered for neighborhood watch. The past performance of this LE unit kind of points in that direction.
They were not gonna waste any monies on a low life for a trial when it could be conveniently closed as a SYG incident. Just economics, my friend.
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  #581  
Old 04-19-2012, 03:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Aedrys View Post
That could be it. I just can't imagine Trayvon saying "Okay, you got it." What the heck does that mean? It doesn't sound like something any teenager would say, or something that anyone would say right after they were shot. He is not making any sense to me. I think GZ is not as good of a liar as he thinks he is. He needs to go to the Casey Anthony School of Liars and get better trained. Sheesh.
I'm with you in that it makes no sense. I just don't think that means he's lying. IMO, it is more likely that GZ misheard TM's last words.
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  #582  
Old 04-19-2012, 03:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Concerned Papa View Post
Looks like Francis fits right in with the shuck and jive being laid out in this deal. When Anderson Cooper asked him, on 3/21, about GZ and his gun, Francis said he was SHOCKED!:



But on 4/9, when telling about GZ and the 2/2 incident at his house, Francis sang a different tune to JVM:



Why does this not surprise me?
Are you saying that FT is lying about first learning that GZ was carrying after the shooting?

I wouldn't be shocked but I don't think you can establish that based on your quotes because you're taking it out of context.
In the April quote FT is not describing a conversation they had on February 2, he's describing a phone call he'd had the same day he was on the show, in April.


Quote:
FRANK TAAFFE, FRIEND OF GEORGE ZIMMERMAN: Thank you for having me on again, Jane. I miss you. I`m glad to be back.

First of all, I spoke with George at 1:06 today for about a half hour. He -- his tone seemed very subdued. It was monotone. He expressed sympathy for the loss of my son again.

And he went to share with me the fact that he started this Web site, ********************************. And he wanted everybody in the media to know about that. Also he wanted to corroborate my story that on February 2, one of the 911 calls of the 46 that he made regarded my home which was a burglary in progress.

He went on to really elaborate what had happened that night on February 2. And I wrote down some notes as, you know, I was speaking to him, because I, like most 55-year-old men, have a tendency to forget some things. So if you`ll allow me.

He went on to share that on the night of February 2, as he was walking through the neighborhood, ensuring the safety of all the residents at Twin Lakes, that he observed a young black male looking in the front of my house. He called -- he told me that he was walking his 100-pound Rottweiler. And that he was carrying a 9 millimeter with him at that time.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIP...9/ijvm.01.html

BBM the whole thing seems to be a description of this phone call on April 12 and what GZ wanted to share then.

So he could have been shocked shortly after Trayvon's shooting and matter of fact in April. Time to process and all that.
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  #583  
Old 04-19-2012, 04:00 PM
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Originally Posted by rotterdam View Post


Because Trayvon was perceived as a low life, probably a drug user and burglar even if no record, because he was one of those A** holes that always got away. And GZ was an upstanding citizen that volunteered for neighborhood watch. The past performance of this LE unit kind of points in that direction.
They were not gonna waste any monies on a low life for a trial when it could be conveniently closed as a SYG incident. Just economics, my friend.
Is there anything in the police report that describes TM as a low life, drug user, or burglar?
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  #584  
Old 04-19-2012, 04:01 PM
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Is it just me, or does it seem like there's some kind of full court press been run at us for the last 3 days before his bond hearing tomorrow morning?

Day before yesterday "neighbors", whose names don't show up on the appraiser's site, were coming forward for the first time after 2 months talking about seeing bandages and swelling the next day.

Yesterday, Francisxxxx er a "friend" told us about self made pictures of the grievous injuries that GZ had that's gonna set him free soon as a judge sees em, and shame every journalist in the western hemisphere.

Today, "remorseful" George wants to meet with the parents of the 17 year old boy that he killed, presumably to express his sincere regrets about their loss and, of course, his own captivity.

Wonder what's next?
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  #585  
Old 04-19-2012, 04:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gxm View Post
Is there anything in the police report that describes TM as a low life, drug user, or burglar?
Well, GZ implied these things in his call to LE? It's right there in his own voice/words?
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  #586  
Old 04-19-2012, 04:04 PM
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Have we seen the final police report yet? Have we seen a full police report yet? Look, we know from the recorded call that Zimmerman proclaimed Trayvon was one of "those" kids. You know, the a$$hole ones that always get away. He made sure that he stated near the beginning of his call that they have had numerous burglaries in the neighborhood and this kid looked like he was on drugs, looked suspicious and was coming "to check me out". So why in the world is it a big leap to think that SPD believed Zimmerman about Trayvon being one of "those" kids. I imagine that we will hear alot of crap coming from some of the SPD during the trial that will amount to a whole lot of CYA.

MOO
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  #587  
Old 04-19-2012, 04:05 PM
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Originally Posted by cityslick View Post
BBM

Case closed, why would GZ's father lie for his son? Why would GZ's father say things that paint his son in a better light, even if GZ himself never told him this?
Because many a parent would when their child is in a pickle. Called unconditional love.
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  #588  
Old 04-19-2012, 04:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LolaMoon08 View Post
Well, GZ implied these things in his call to LE? It's right there in his own voice/words?
If the dispatcher (and turn the officers who showed up) took what GZ 'implied' from the 911 call about TM and dismissed it based off that alone, the whole department should be shut down IMO.
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  #589  
Old 04-19-2012, 04:06 PM
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So just how does a gun get exposed when the guy is sitting on you and you have a zipped up coat that goes down to your hips? Makes no sense.

http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/dpp/new...-says-03282012

"It's my understanding at that point Trayvon Martin walked up to him, asked him, 'do you have a f---in problem?' George said 'no, I don't have a problem,' and started to reach for his cell phone. At that point, he was punched in the nose, his nose was broken, and he was knocked to the concrete," Robert Zimmerman said.

"Travyon Martin got on top of him and started beating him, in his face, nose, hitting his head on the concrete," he continued

Zimmerman said during the scuffle, Martin threatened George Zimmerman's life.

"After nearly a minute of being beaten, George was trying to get his head off the concrete, trying to move with Trayvon on him, into the grass. In doing so, his firearm was shown. Trayvon Martin said something to the effect of 'you're going to die now,' or 'you're going to die tonight.' Or something to that effect. He continued to beat George and at some point George pulled his pistol and did what he did," Robert Zimmerman said.
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  #590  
Old 04-19-2012, 04:06 PM
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Originally Posted by LolaMoon08 View Post
Well, GZ implied these things in his call to LE? It's right there in his own voice/words?
But it's not in the police report. Correct? IMO, people are making very large leaps about what LE, not GZ, thought about TM.
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  #591  
Old 04-19-2012, 04:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Aedrys View Post
That could be it. I just can't imagine Trayvon saying "Okay, you got it." What the heck does that mean? It doesn't sound like something any teenager would say, or something that anyone would say right after they were shot. He is not making any sense to me. I think GZ is not as good of a liar as he thinks he is. He needs to go to the Casey Anthony School of Liars and get better trained. Sheesh.
I have been wondering what the "it" was. May be it was the gun?
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  #592  
Old 04-19-2012, 04:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr.Fessel View Post
So just how does a gun get exposed when the guy is sitting on you and you have a zipped up coat that goes down to your hips? Makes no sense.

http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/dpp/new...-says-03282012

"It's my understanding at that point Trayvon Martin walked up to him, asked him, 'do you have a f---in problem?' George said 'no, I don't have a problem,' and started to reach for his cell phone. At that point, he was punched in the nose, his nose was broken, and he was knocked to the concrete," Robert Zimmerman said.

"Travyon Martin got on top of him and started beating him, in his face, nose, hitting his head on the concrete," he continued

Zimmerman said during the scuffle, Martin threatened George Zimmerman's life.

"After nearly a minute of being beaten, George was trying to get his head off the concrete, trying to move with Trayvon on him, into the grass. In doing so, his firearm was shown. Trayvon Martin said something to the effect of 'you're going to die now,' or 'you're going to die tonight.' Or something to that effect. He continued to beat George and at some point George pulled his pistol and did what he did," Robert Zimmerman said.
TM saw that GZ had a gun but he just mindlessly continued hitting him and never mind trying to sit on the holster or throw the gun away or grab it or otherwise prevent GZ getting hold of it?
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  #593  
Old 04-19-2012, 04:11 PM
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Originally Posted by gxm View Post
Is there anything in the police report that describes TM as a low life, drug user, or burglar?
No, but their actions point to that direction. And they just piggybacked on GZ previous phone call with his unsubstantiated accusations
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  #594  
Old 04-19-2012, 04:11 PM
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Originally Posted by rotterdam View Post
Which version is this now. Lost count. BBM, so now Tray was standing when he was shot.
I, for one, believe he was standing.
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  #595  
Old 04-19-2012, 04:14 PM
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MOO, I don't think GZ's relatives would necessarily have to lie for him. They weren't there and only know what they've been told and it's imo possible that they were never told the truth about what happened.
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Old 04-19-2012, 04:15 PM
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Originally Posted by TorisMom003 View Post
Have we seen the final police report yet? Have we seen a full police report yet? Look, we know from the recorded call that Zimmerman proclaimed Trayvon was one of "those" kids. You know, the a$$hole ones that always get away. He made sure that he stated near the beginning of his call that they have had numerous burglaries in the neighborhood and this kid looked like he was on drugs, looked suspicious and was coming "to check me out". So why in the world is it a big leap to think that SPD believed Zimmerman about Trayvon being one of "those" kids. I imagine that we will hear alot of crap coming from some of the SPD during the trial that will amount to a whole lot of CYA.

MOO
No. That's why I keep asking if LE actually described TM as a low life, drug user, or burglar. I would think they'd be waiting for forensics on the the drug user part, and to the best of my knowledge they didn't find any burglary tools or stolen items on TM. So that just leaves "low life" and I'm not really sure what evidence would prove that. IMO, there is no way to know what the responding officers thought about TM, other than he was the victim of a fatal gunshot.

And, seriously, what difference does it make if he was a drug user or burglar. Are these folks fair game to be shot on sight? It's like that recent case where the teenager was shot in the head by someone firing a "warning shot" during a burglary. Is it okay because she was, apparently, with the robbers? IMO, no.

JMO, OMO, and
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  #597  
Old 04-19-2012, 04:15 PM
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Originally Posted by gxm View Post
I'm with you in that it makes no sense. I just don't think that means he's lying. IMO, it is more likely that GZ misheard TM's last words.
I think he may have misheard too. Someone posted that the "You got me" we first saw reported may have been more like "you shot me"

"okay you got it" could also be...

"okay, you shot it"

All just my opinion, until we see the actual report signed by GZ.
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  #598  
Old 04-19-2012, 04:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Isabelle View Post
I, for one, believe he was standing.
Me too. I think he probably took a few steps before he fell which is how his body ended up on the hill.

JMO, OMO, and
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  #599  
Old 04-19-2012, 04:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Donjeta View Post
Are you saying that FT is lying about first learning that GZ was carrying after the shooting?

I wouldn't be shocked but I don't think you can establish that based on your quotes because you're taking it out of context.
In the April quote FT is not describing a conversation they had on February 2, he's describing a phone call he'd had the same day he was on the show, in April.




http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIP...9/ijvm.01.html

BBM the whole thing seems to be a description of this phone call on April 12 and what GZ wanted to share then.

So he could have been shocked shortly after Trayvon's shooting and matter of fact in April. Time to process and all that.
No, look at it again, I don't think I took it out of context, Donjeta. I'll go back and find the link if necessary, but last February when the burglary attempt allegedly went down, Frank has already talked about GZ calling him at work, I believe, to tell him what was happening at his house.

IMO, clearly what I have placed in red, as you say, is FT's version of what GZ told him the day of the show. Why would he begin a sentence with "He went on to share that on the night of February 2......", then start the very next sentence with "He called...." if it was a phone call earlier the same day?

He went on to share that on the night of February 2, as he was walking through the neighborhood, ensuring the safety of all the residents at Twin Lakes, that he observed a young black male looking in the front of my house. He called -- he told me that he was walking his 100-pound Rottweiler. And that he was carrying a 9 millimeter with him at that time.

That's the way I read it anyway.
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Old 04-19-2012, 04:23 PM
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I do not believe it happened this way, but, could Zimmerman have pulled the gun on Trayvon and told him to stop where he was and wait until police arrived which in turn had Trayvon tell Zimmerman "ok, you got it"?

Now one of the problems I see with this is Zimmerman had no right or reason to detain Trayvon so that could blow his self-defense claim out the water. So it makes it "sound better" and helps Zimmerman's self-defense claim if he changes that a little bit. Can't let on that Zimmerman did anything illegal that night, after all if that comes out then Zimmerman will have the honor of spending if not the rest of his life in prison then at least a good chunk of it.

MOO
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