NY NY - Etan Patz, 6, New York, 25 May 1979 - #2

[osadelnorte]

Originally Posted by fascination

I thought 3 feet, 4 inches seemed unusually short for someone who was 6 years and 8 months old, too. It could be that the parents did not have precise knowledge of his height at the time of his disappearance, but a more current height should have been able to have been "guestimated" to within a couple of inches.

Exactly. Or maybe he hadn't had a check-up with a doctor in awhile, and that was the last height on record for him or something like that.

[osadelnorte]

Originally Posted by RoseTree

This actually has bothered me for a while too. My 4.5 year old is on the small side and is 40.5 inches tall. He is about in the 35th percentile for height. He is 36 pounds- so to add 14 pounds to his current height would make him pretty chunky and Etan didn't look chunky.

As a fun fact, my 2.5 year old is 38 inches tall. I find it highly unlikely that Etan was 40 inches tall.

Yep. My 6-yo is around 46-47 inches and my 3-yo is around 37.

[Zoe Zo]

Originally Posted by Mystic

The other thing that stumps me is that the Police would have interviewed everyone from that bodega due to Etan planning to buy a soda.. so how did PH not get interviewed. There had to a reason, did the owners only state he worked occasionally and not that particular day? Since if LE knew he was working, loading stock at that particular corner or whatever that morning... he would have been high on the list for the possibility of seeing something. Something is up with that.. there was a post here mentioning the owners were possibly doing some illegal stuff (turkey stuff?? whatever that is). Is it possible they didn't trust PH to blurt out private info?

Could it be they were paying him under the table and did not want to get caught doing that??

[Zoe Zo]

Originally Posted by Mystic

I also respect the post of bethofalltrades. PH believes he did it, but could PH actually only be a witness rather then having done the crime.... some articles have his leaving town from 1-2 months & others 2 days. If it was 1-2 months LE would have spoken to him in my thoughts.. but if it was as quickly as a day or so?? why? Maybe I'm thinking too much; i do trust that Detective Butler had some gut instinct that the answer would be found at the bodega.

Interesting thoughts, but it could be true - also if he did go away a day or 2 later - could someone have sent him away (for a reason) and he can't remember that?? Maybe I'm thinking too much also lol

[SyraKelly]

I am on the fence to as whether PH did it-I need something speific from LE that leads to PH-something only PH or Etan's parents knew about him-like-did Etan take a lunch that day or something in his book bag-This arresting a mentally ill person base on a confession is just not enough for me!! I want hard proof it PH!!

[SideKick]

I agree arresting a mentally ill person is not enough to call the guilty shots however, it seems kind of far fetched. However, given the fact that he lived in the neighbourhood at the time of Etan's disappearance is very coincidental. He married twice, had a daughter and carried on somewhat ok all these years dispite having moments of withdrawl and introvertedness .... he can't be all that ill? I'm going with he did this act but it really really bothers me without concrete proof.

[KenoshaKid]

Originally Posted by snowhiteo

^^^^ Maybe Etan was just short for his age?? I know in the full body shots we have seen of him in pics, he does appear on the short side. This may also account for nobody noticing him entering the bodega, could be that he was small and moved quickly and just didn't draw attention to himself that morning on the street.

Did he actually enter the store part of the bodega? I thought he just went in the side door that led to the basement.

Also, I hate to be morbid, but if he just put the body in with the trash, wouldn't it smell horribly after a little while? Unless he did it just before trash pickup?

[DLT88]

Originally Posted by fascination

I thought 3 feet, 4 inches seemed unusually short for someone who was 6 years and 8 months old, too. It could be that the parents did not have precise knowledge of his height at the time of his disappearance, but a more current height should have been able to have been "guestimated" to within a couple of inches.

Could be somewhat accurate. Children do seem to be healthier and taller than 33 years ago may be due to better nutrition, prenatal vitamins, etc.

[DLT88]

Originally Posted by snowhiteo

^^^^ Maybe Etan was just short for his age?? I know in the full body shots we have seen of him in pics, he does appear on the short side. This may also account for nobody noticing him entering the bodega, could be that he was small and moved quickly and just didn't draw attention to himself that morning on the street.

And, because it was so early in the morning, is it possible PH was the only one who had arrived at the store that morning with Etan came by? Stock people usually do get there first and do the stocking before the store opens, I've noticed.

[DLT88]

Originally Posted by KenoshaKid

Did he actually enter the store part of the bodega? I thought he just went in the side door that led to the basement.

Also, I hate to be morbid, but if he just put the body in with the trash, wouldn't it smell horribly after a little while? Unless he did it just before trash pickup?

PH is saying he first put the body in the freezer until he had an opportunity to move it out to the trash. If it were first frozen, it would take a good while longer to develop an odor and, perhaps, the trash pick-up came only a short time later.

http://abcnews.go.com/News/etan-patz...8#.T8UuIMX090Q

[necco]

I wonder if the height could have been from his pre-school physical that year, so it may have been almost a year old. I recall at that age getting a physical at the end of every summer just before school started. If this was also the case with Etan, the height would have been around 9 months old.

I wonder if no one from the church group confessed because either a) it was a confidential group or b) they thought he had a car accident or something like that and that it had already been adjudicated.

[KenoshaKid]

Originally Posted by DLT88

PH is saying he first put the body in the freezer until he had an opportunity to move it out to the trash. If it were first frozen, it would take a good while longer to develop an odor and, perhaps, the trash pick-up came only a short time later.

http://abcnews.go.com/News/etan-patz...8#.T8UuIMX090Q

The article title says he kept the body frozen, and the contents of the article say he kept it in a walk in refrigerator. I remain confused. :^) He had to have taken it out right before garbage pickup but goodness, what a risk to take if that was days away.

[impatientredhead]

Originally Posted by Zoe Zo

My thinking is these people didn't say a thing either because they were afraid to know the truth or he had mental problems back then and they thought that he was just saying crazy things?? Maybe he said other crazy things which made them to think he was just talking crazy??

One of the article states that his previous confessions did not name the victim. That would make me think that they didn't believe him.

This is what I am thinking, he is mentally ill, he lives in the area at the time of the kidnapping and it impacts him emotionally (as it would anyone). But whatever his own internal struggles are he goes on over the next years to confess to murdering a child, not Etan per se but a child. Then decades later Etan is forefront in the headlines again and my guess is that he confessed again this time stating he killed that child. The tip is called in and he is picked up.

I just don't believe it is him. The story itself, the body just disappearing, no one seeing a thing... so we have a perp who at a young age himself successfully pulls off a murder, even though he leaves the body unattended, returns to it, moves again, by his own account goes back again to where he left the body that is now gone to check on it and still no one notices anything. No physical evidence. And what is even harder for me to believe is this teenage murder goes on to live the next decades of his life, marries, has a child himself, and not a scrape with the law. No child porn, no more victims, no domestic violence, no molested kids, not even a self medicating drug charge or a drunk and disorderly while off his meds.

I can't find the words but he feels like a vulnerable soul that was imprinted by his proximity to the case. Maybe I am way off. I hope we don't see a guilty plea with no trial and eval of the so called evidence.

[impatientredhead]

Originally Posted by Bodhi

I found an interesting video that may be the bodega and possibly Hernandez's brother-in-law from the early days.

http://video.msnbc.msn.com/nightly-n...06472#47106472


When the news broke on Thursday, I went looking for a video I'd seen during the search of the basement last month. It's of William Butler, the detective who retraced Etan's steps daily and later committed suicide. Butler goes into a bodega and asks the man behind the counter if anyone was talking about the Patz case. I was checking if the man's name was Pedro. It wasn't. It's Juan.

According to this article, Hernandez was working at the bodega with sister Luz's husband, Juan Santana at the time Etan disappeared.
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/m...tq7in0NcN3gO/1

Other sources said that Juan owned the bodega.

Hernandez contacted his sister Luz last month to discuss the search of Miller's basement. He has had very little contact with Luz in years and he wasn't calling to make chit-chat, she said.
http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Justice...-Patz-cold-cas

Is the bodega in the Butler video the right bodega? I've read there was only one in the area at the time. I wonder if this is Pedro's brother-in-law in the Butler video?

Really amazing find and very interesting to see.

[DevilsPlayThing]

Originally Posted by Mystic

After I wrote my previous post I recalled reading that a detective re-walked that route to the Bodega for years. Honestly its just driving me nuts that he would do that and not bother to go talk to PH (or look for where he went). .

{snipped}
The investigation conducted was somewhat 2 pronged {or more}. Detective Butler - who suicided in 1986 was NYPD. Assistant US Attorney GraBois investigation was more far reaching - but GraBois pursued Ramos.

GraBois conducted searches of waters and dug up the ground on Ward Island{searching for a not-living Etan}. But also traveled to Israel and other countries - at those times looking for a live Etan. GraBois found out early on about Ramos molestering of boys. On the slim chance Etan could have been sold, traded, or kept hidden - Ramos was put under surveillance.

Around the time Etan would have been 18 years old Ramos was travelling with a boy that GraBois was convinced was Etan. GraBois obtained the boys DNA {took quite some time - boy was not cooperative} and the boy was not Etan. Ramos was finally arrested soon after Ramos molestered the boys at Rainbow Gatherings while under surveillance by Park Rangers in plain clothes. This was a planned operation - the same Park Rangers attended Rainbow Gatherings prior to attending the Ramos Gatherings. They also reported what they saw at the Rainbow Gatherings - in graphic detail - not attended by Ramos. Before the Rainbow Gatherings - which took place in several states but not NY - boys were talked to by LE after leaving hotel rooms with Ramos. LE was trailing Ramos for years. While under surveillance he harmed many. But LE was certain he would lead them to Etan - if he remained free. Finally he was arrested after the 2 Rainbow Gathering fiascos - and the 18 year old Not Etan.

Maybe Detective Butler had his own suspects - but other agencies were set on Ramos. Not enough to press criminal charges. And the DA would not summon a Grand Jury. All agencies were really at odds on this one.


It is unknown if Pedro was questioned early on or not. Detective Butler states in the 1979 video that he had at that time talked to over 200 people.

I thought a person's HIV status was not to be disclosed - but LE and the family of Pedro have now disclosed. Maybe if arrested for felony - all bets are off. HIV symptoms can be dimentia + much more obviously.

NY Sanitation - in their short statement did mention pick-up being in the night. I know I have heard the trucks at all hours - but who knows if they are private or NY Sanitation or who services the Thompson Street cubby where Etan was placed - or who serviced it in 1979. It is possible that night pick-ups are necessary - as to start each morning empty and not overflowing already. It is possible that at the time police were searching Prince Street the evening Etan went missing - the pick-up on Thompson Street was being made.
Here is the alley on Thompson Street that Pedro is said to have utelized.

[epiphany]

Hernandez then moved back to New York City and resumed work at the bodega on the corner of West Broadway and Prince Street while living with his sister Luz, said another sister, Norma Hernandez, to reporters today at her Camden, NJ, home.

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/s...#ixzz1wIs8E5UX

[epiphany]

Snipped

“My sister [Margarita Lopez] ... told me that my brother has confessed that he has killed a little boy in New York. He strangled him and put him in the trash. That is what I heard so that is the information I took to the police station in Camden.

Snipped

“I gave my license, I gave my information, I gave information about my sister, where he was staying [in New York]. I gave information about him,” she said.

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/s...#ixzz1wIsdQtmT

[epiphany]

Personally, I agree with this sister: Police were fixated on Jose Ramos.

[Mystic]

Originally Posted by Zoe Zo

Could it be they were paying him under the table and did not want to get caught doing that??

I beleive one article did mention he was paid under the table, so could be a concern, yet he was family and only 18 so I don't know why it be that great a deal hmmm the whole thing is odd

[wfgodot]

Great posts, all. This thread is, posts-wise, running long - do we want a new thread, or do we feel that maybe this case will die down a bit in the coming days, and this one will suffice? Will start a new one if that's what we want.

[Mystic]

Originally Posted by Zoe Zo

Interesting thoughts, but it could be true - also if he did go away a day or 2 later - could someone have sent him away (for a reason) and he can't remember that?? Maybe I'm thinking too much also lol

i know lol 18 and takes off on his own ? I guess we'll have to wait until they reveal more information. I feel more certain that whatever really happened or whoever it was will end up linking back to the bodega; whether it was PH or not. jmo so far

[DevilsPlayThing]

Perhaps paying under the table. One person has memories which give a little more insight :

The sinful steak sandwiches, the weed they sold behind the counter, and the barbecues.

I once bought a box of instant oatmeal there. I brought it home, “cooked” it up, and noticed hundreds of little bugs crawling around my bowl.

[bethofalltrades]

Originally Posted by DLT88

And, because it was so early in the morning, is it possible PH was the only one who had arrived at the store that morning with Etan came by? Stock people usually do get there first and do the stocking before the store opens, I've noticed.

If that bodega was one of only a few in the area, I'd expect that by 8am it would be busy with regulars buying their coffees, morning papers, cigarettes, egg sandwiches, etc. Which makes me even more skeptical that Rodriguez lured Etan into the basement totally unnoticed. I suppose at this late date it would be hard to find out what time that particular bodega opened for business, though.

[wfgodot]

Village Voice poll currently running 61.54% - 38.46% against believing confession.

Article, poll, here: Etan Patz Murder Suspect Pedro Hernandez: Do You Believe The Confession?

[Zoe Zo]

Originally Posted by impatientredhead

One of the article states that his previous confessions did not name the victim. That would make me think that they didn't believe him.

This is what I am thinking, he is mentally ill, he lives in the area at the time of the kidnapping and it impacts him emotionally (as it would anyone). But whatever his own internal struggles are he goes on over the next years to confess to murdering a child, not Etan per se but a child. Then decades later Etan is forefront in the headlines again and my guess is that he confessed again this time stating he killed that child. The tip is called in and he is picked up.

I just don't believe it is him. The story itself, the body just disappearing, no one seeing a thing... so we have a perp who at a young age himself successfully pulls off a murder, even though he leaves the body unattended, returns to it, moves again, by his own account goes back again to where he left the body that is now gone to check on it and still no one notices anything. No physical evidence. And what is even harder for me to believe is this teenage murder goes on to live the next decades of his life, marries, has a child himself, and not a scrape with the law. No child porn, no more victims, no domestic violence, no molested kids, not even a self medicating drug charge or a drunk and disorderly while off his meds.

I can't find the words but he feels like a vulnerable soul that was imprinted by his proximity to the case. Maybe I am way off. I hope we don't see a guilty plea with no trial and eval of the so called evidence.

I'm back and forth on whether he did do it or not, but I do know for me to 100% sure that he did it I need some kind of proof to take away all my doubts.

How mentally ill was Hernandez back then, we really don't know. He married 2 times and had a child. Did the ex wives have mental problems them self so they were willing to marry a man with mental problems or did he do such a good job at hiding the mental problems that he was able to marry 2 different ladies and start a family with one of them?? Maybe his mental illness got worst with age?? Maybe, his mental health wasn't that bad when he was younger.

It is hard to believe Hernandez move around without any one seeing anything but I also believe that people can be so caught up with what they are doing that they will not notice anything around them, even something right in front of them.
I'm sure there were many people out at the time Etan was but if you notice not one person even seen him walking down the street so why would they notice Hernandez??
I know I walked right by people I know and never notice them because my mind was someplace else and it wasn't till the person stopped me and said something did I notice them.
Many people, in a hurry to get where ever they were going and not one notice Etan or Hernandez that day because maybe neither one of them did anything that stood out to others, is my guess.

Also some people can be very sneaky and some people are just lucky at not getting caught doing wrong.

I can see someone putting something in the freezer and no one will notice it. It could have been set behind another box or to the side that no one will notice also if you are busy working and you are not the only one going in and out of the freezer taking things or putting things in the freezer, why would you notice something that was put in or talking out of the freezer, mostly if it was just one thing. The freezer might have already had a lot of things in it, so one more thing added or taken out would not really been notice.

As for the "No child porn, no more victims, no domestic violence, no molested kids, not even a self medicating drug charge or a drunk and disorderly while off his meds" -

No Domestic violence - are we sure on this?? Not all woman report it as we all know.

No child porn - are we sure on this?? Could he have had some over the years but got rid of it when he moved in with his ex-wife??

Self medicating drug charge or a drunk - I hate to say this but my own father was a self medicating drunk, he is now deceased and now that I'm grown up I realize he was self medicating drunk, who had panic attacks and other issue from when he was in the war but at no time was he ever arrested for being drunk or for anything else.

As for other victims - so far, we haven't heard any one coming forward saying he did something to them and so far LE has not said he did this to anyone else (which is a good thing) but is it possible Etan was his only victim??
I don't know enough about people who do these kind of crimes to give an opinion on this one.
Could someone do this just once because for that split second when he see little Etan, he seen an opportunity that he could get away with it which he hasn't seen since with anyone else??
Is it possible a killer does it once and finds out it is something that they didn't like doing after all??