NY NY - Etan Patz, 6, New York, 25 May 1979 - #2

[BaxterDE42]

Hinkey meter off the chart...
Wow. Already, I see LE is patting themselves on the back for "solving" this case (link below) So who is heading up this last ditch effort tosolve a 30 something year old case. Someone running for re-election? How can they claim credit when this man turned himself in??

Just wow. So the box was gone when Pedro went back a couple of days later? Those poor parents.


http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/201...ed_to_dea.html

[wfgodot]

Originally Posted by BaxterDE42

Hinkey meter off the chart...
Wow. Already, I see LE is patting themselves on the back for "solving" this case (link below) So who is heading up this last ditch effort tosolve a 30 something year old case. Someone running for re-election? How can they claim credit when this man turned himself in??

Just wow. So the box was gone when Pedro went back a couple of days later? Those poor parents.


http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/201...ed_to_dea.html

It doesn't appear he "turned himself in." From your link:

New York City investigators tracked Pedro Hernandez to Maple Shade in Burlington County, and he confessed Wednesday to kidnapping and strangling Etan Patz

The FBI spokesman said at the time that the effort in the basement once rented by Mr. Miller was only a part of an ongoing investigation, and that LE was active in talking to people in other parts of the area.

I wonder - if Hernandez did know Othneil Miller - if the crime was a result of a perfect storm involving Hernandez, Miller, and Jose Ramos, who, it's been reported, did know Mr. Miller and quite probably helped him in his job. With the info on the bodega, it looks like the proximity is there. Perhaps the murder, the storage, and the subsequent disposal of the body involves all three.

[epiphany]

Originally Posted by wfgodot

While I poo-poo'd it at the time, considering it just as likely to be an LE ploy, putting words, in effect, into an old man's mouth, suddenly, Othneil Miller's apparent question (as to whether the cadaver dog could scent a body which had been in a location and then removed) just might come back into play here - if Hernandez did the crime and placed the body in the basement space rented by Miller. Will we hear more of O.M. in conjunction with this confession? Did Hernandez know Miller? Stay tuned!

Snipped

"[Miller] has nothing to do with this latest suspect that I know of," Farkas added this morning.

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/m...#ixzz1voHvRZNY

In either his possible madness or possible truth-telling, he conveniently left out what he did between luring Etan in and murdering him.

[BaxterDE42]

Originally Posted by wfgodot

It doesn't appear he "turned himself in." From your link:

The FBI spokesman said at the time that the effort in the basement once rented by Mr. Miller was only a part of an ongoing investigation, and that LE was active in talking to people in other parts of the area.

I wonder - if Hernandez did know Othneil Miller - if the crime was a result of a perfect storm involving Hernandez, Miller, and Jose Ramos, who, it's been reported, did know Mr. Miller and quite probably helped him in his job. With the info on the bodega, it looks like the proximity is there.

Sorry about that. My link was the PR one about solving the case. I got the other info from the 100 or so articles I am searching for factual information. Disregard until I have printed info to that statement. I now see the DA is running for fre-election. Isn't he the one who stated up on his election win that he would "solve" this case? Whew.... politics+ego+equals walking on the dead and the surviving victims.
JUST MOO
Still reading....

[wfgodot]

Originally Posted by epiphany

Snipped

"[Miller] has nothing to do with this latest suspect that I know of," Farkas added this morning.

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/m...#ixzz1voHvRZNY

In either his possible madness or possible truth-telling, he conveniently left out what he did between luring Etan in and murdering him.

Thanks. I suppose, though, it might have been possible for Hernandez to access the basement area via Ramos, and for Mr. Miller either not to be involved at all or to be involved after the fact.

Hernandez may not be telling all he knows about the eventual disposal of the box with the body (that is, if any of this actually took place and he's not just a false confessor) in order to protect another party. Which is sort of noble, when one thinks about it; till one remembers that this involves the disappearance of a little boy, and that ennobles no one.

[Thinkzerz]

This guy needs to provide some evidence. Does he know any birth marks or what underwear the boy was wearing to prove he really did this? There has to be something he can tell LE or else it will seem that this guy is not being truthful. The box was gone? Really Someone just thought they would take a box with a dead boy? Wonder when we will hear if at all about some evidence to prove this guy is telling the truth?

[katydid23]

It is hard for me to believe that someone stole the box with the dead child inside.

[epiphany]

Snipped

Mr. Morgenthau long argued there was insufficient evidence to proceed in the case. Aides to Mr. Vance said a decision has yet to be made on whether to empanel a grand jury [against Ramos].

Snipped

Last year, the Patz case became a lightning rod in the divisive race for district attorney. Mr. Morgenthau said it was "irresponsible" to promise to convene a grand jury [against Ramos] in the case.

"We spent a huge amount of time on that case. If we could go to a grand jury, we would in a minute," Mr. Morgenthau said last summer. "There's no sufficient evidence, and there's absolutely no reason to open a grand jury investigation when you don't have any admissible evidence."

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...222203334.html

However, I believe all in the race for DA promised to reopen the Etan Patz case, not just Cy Vance.

[BaxterDE42]

Originally Posted by katydid23

It is hard for me to believe that someone stole the box with the dead child inside.

katydid23, I do believe we will see that story morph into something else. At least we should see additions that make this a slight more plausable.

I don't know who is playing the better games, LE, the DA or the media, because I am going back and reading the articles from supplied links and there is an update time. In those updates certain potentially ebarrissing information is left out, such as this latest developement being unrelated to the search in the basement. That is now omitted from the article. I think it is the Associated Press article above just a few posts. The quote appears in the post and in the first article ( I read it!) but updated after the post was made. I am finding other such "uupdates" which are to the credit of the government offices involved. Just an observation FWIW.

[BaxterDE42]

I am taking a break while the spin evolves.

May God comfort the parents.

[Marilynilpa]

Originally Posted by wfgodot

While I poo-poo'd it at the time, considering it just as likely to be an LE ploy, putting words, in effect, into an old man's mouth, suddenly, Othneil Miller's apparent question (as to whether the cadaver dog could scent a body which had been in a location and then removed) just might come back into play here - if Hernandez did the crime and placed the body in the basement space rented by Miller. Will we hear more of O.M. in conjunction with this confession? Did Hernandez know Miller? Stay tuned!

According to Mr. Miller's attorney's statement today, Mr. Miller has no knowledge of Pedro Hernandez.

[princesspjs]

IMO I suppose that someone who lived or worked in the area could have come across the box and thought it was spoiled food and didn't look inside or they if they didn't take all of the plastic out and just saw his hair, they could have mistook him for someone's pet who had passed away. The person could have just tossed the box into the nearest dumpster.

This crime happened at a time when you wouldn't automatically suspect that the body of a missing child would be found in a foul smelling box on the corner.

Oh how I miss those days....

IMO, JMO, MOO

[epiphany]

The man, Pedro Hernandez, told investigators that he left the box at a location in Manhattan, but when he returned several days later the box was no longer there, the official said. Investigators recently took Mr. Hernandez to that building.

http://topics.nytimes.com/topics/ref...atz/index.html

[epiphany]

Speculation: Body brought to basement workshop building that was ripped up recently, and then, body later removed.
Speculation: More than one individual involved.

[wfgodot]

Originally Posted by Marilynilpa

According to Mr. Miller's attorney's statement today, Mr. Miller has no knowledge of Pedro Hernandez.

Wondering about Ramos....and his access to that basement.

[wfgodot]

L.A. Times's take on the matter, published online 15 minutes ago:

Etan Patz: N.J. man is questioned but skepticism remains

Also has a video at link.

[Perodicticus potto]

I really hope Hernandez isn't another John Mark Karr. This poor boy's family have been through enough.

[osadelnorte]

Hi, this is my first post on Websleuths. I've been a longtime lurker in the missing forums, but the news today brought me out and prompted me to make an account so I could post.

I grew up in a suburb of NYC and Etan's case has been in my consciousness for as long as I can remember. I was six months old when he disappeared and I got married on the same date of his disappearance, in 2002. Etan is always on my mind on my wedding anniversary.

I was wondering if anyone knew where the bodega (in which Etan planned to buy his soda) is in relation to the building recently dug up? Is this the same bodega where Hernandez was working at the time? If the bodega and this other building are near one another, I'm thinking that Etan could have been taken from the bodega to the other building while still alive and killed there, or his body was moved to the other building after being killed in the bodega. Of course, this is purely speculation, but I'm very curious about the proximity of these two locations.

[wfgodot]

Originally Posted by osadelnorte

Hi, this is my first post on Websleuths. I've been a longtime lurker in the missing forums, but the news today brought me out and prompted me to make an account so I could post.

I grew up in a suburb of NYC and Etan's case has been in my consciousness for as long as I can remember. I was six months old when he disappeared and I got married on the same date of his disappearance, in 2002. Etan is always on my mind on my wedding anniversary.

I was wondering if anyone knew where the bodega (in which Etan planned to buy his soda) is in relation to the building recently dug up? Is this the same bodega where Hernandez was working at the time? If the bodega and this other building are near one another, I'm thinking that Etan could have been taken from the bodega to the other building while still alive and killed there, or his body was moved to the other building after being killed in the bodega. Of course, this is purely speculation, but I'm very curious about the proximity of these two locations.

Welcome to WS, osadelnorte! Excellent first post.

I'm behind in my reading but so far haven't seen if the bodega in question is the one mentioned as being on Etan's block - it was either on the block or around the corner, I think - and thus in close proximity to the basement. I suspect that it is, but let me go rustle around and see if any news source has found out, maybe has a map, etc.

Here's something close to definitive info - should have read my own link, it's the L.A. Times one I posted above:

The man in custody was identified by a law enforcement official as Pedro Julio Hernandez of Maple Shade, N.J. Hernandez, 51, said he worked at a grocery store near the home of Etan, who was walking to his school bus stop on May 25, 1979, when he disappeared.

Not sure if LE has verified his claim that Hernandez did in fact work at that bodega in May 1979. Still looking.

[jamiect]

Originally Posted by Perodicticus potto

I really hope Hernandez isn't another John Mark Karr. This poor boy's family have been through enough.

I was thinking the same thing. I really hope this is not another whack-a-doodle looking for his 15 minutes. I pray for the Patz family.

[osadelnorte]

Thanks wfgodot! Thank you for the welcome too.

I really feel this bodega was the point of contact for Etan and Hernandez, if his story is to be believed (and if the stores in question were one and the same). It just seems very coincidental, and I'm still not entirely convinced that the other building holds no connection to the case. It makes me wonder too, could there have been underground access between buildings in the same block, or rear access where people could have come and gone unnoticed...so many questions.

[wfgodot]

Mystifyingly, I still can't find a map which charts the Patz residence, the basement (at 127B Prince Street), and the bodega, in 1979. One would think at least some MSM source would have published that online, at least during the recent search, based on the fact that the bodega was said to be quite likely the place Etan would spend his $1, and was a place he'd been to, and knew, and where he was known.

[osadelnorte]

Originally Posted by wfgodot

Mystifyingly, I still can't find a map which charts the Patz residence, the basement (at 127B Prince Street), and the bodega, in 1979. One would think at least some MSM source would have published that online, at least during the recent search, based on the fact that the bodega was said to be quite likely the place Etan would spend his $1, and was a place he'd been to, and knew, and where he was known.

Exactly. I totally agree with you and I find it frustrating too.

I was thinking more about this...if it happened the way we think it did, it's such a tragic series of events: Miller befriends the child and gives him money for helping, he gets $1 the night before his disappearance, he wants to stop for a soda the next day, this Hernandez guy is in the store...it's almost like that poem about "for want of a horseshoe nail." It feels, to me, as if one small thing led to another in his case and something cataclysmic happened in the end. But I guess that would be true of just about any tragic case like his. I don't know why his seems so much more haunting to me.

[wfgodot]

CNN's article, from wibw.com:

Ex Manhattan Store Owner Says He Strangled Etan Patz

And, across the pond, Daily Mail's tabloid splash into the case's resumption (they seem to have the alleged mode of Etan's death wrong as most sources I've seen say Hernandez says he strangled him):

Revealed: Etan Patz 'killer' was just 18 when he 'stabbed six-year-old
to death in 1979' – and confessed after he was diagnosed with cancer

[southerncat]

I believe, unless I have misread that there have been two different ages given for Hernandez. One was 63? (maybe) and the other 51? If it was 51 he would have been what 17/18 when this happened? Again, I am so hoping that they have the correct person this time and that they can verify his story. I hope so much for these parents to find just a little bit of peace. No one should suffer as they have.