17 yo Trayvon Martin Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #33

[Karmady]

Originally Posted by suzihawk

That's your opinion (I'm assuming since you don't indicate otherwise). I stand by mine.

I wish she would respond. I'd pay money to see Corey go up against one of the most lettered, experienced and respected legal minds of the 20-21st Century. Especially a staunch liberal who's known for civil liberties coming out against the "civil liberties" poster affidavit.

[grandmaj]

Race discussion to the sound off thread.......

[Adrienne37]

It would be very nice if we had a few attorneys to weigh in like we've had previously and then that way there is absolutely no doubt as what is legal and what is not. <mod snip>


~jmo~

[csziggy]

Originally Posted by Dr.Fessel

How in the world do you shoot a dog in a neighborhood and not endanger every neighbor around?

I have been faced with very similar dog problems and I have thought about shooting the dog but how do you know where that bullet is going to end up? Not like you are out in the woods somewhere. I have thought about using a baseball bat but then it is just blaming the dog for being a dog and not the irresponsible owners.

I decided just to keep calling the cops till something was done and it was. They told the people they would lose the dog if it happened one more time. That made them keep them tied up.

Why would you just jump to getting a gun. Makes no sense and I don't believe the story.

A pit bull named Big Boi began menacing George and Shellie Zimmerman in the fall of 2009.

The first time the dog ran free and cornered Shellie in their gated community in Sanford, Florida, George called the owner to complain.

The second time, Big Boi frightened his mother-in-law's dog. Zimmerman called Seminole County Animal Services and bought pepper spray.

The third time he saw the dog on the loose, he called again. An officer came to the house, county records show.

'Don't use pepper spray,' he told the Zimmermans, according to a friend. 'It'll take two or three seconds to take effect, but a quarter second for the dog to jump you,' he said.

'Get a gun.'

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz1t6k8irMe

I know when I had a pair of people and cat aggressive dogs coming onto my farm, the local animal control told me I could not shoot them unless I felt in fear for my life. On the other hand, if they were attacking my livestock, it seemed to be OK for me to shoot them. Since my horses are canine aggressive, they were not in danger from the dogs.

One of my thoughts was to buy a paintball gun with bright pink paint balls and shoot the dogs with those. But the local shop that sells them recommended against it. The gentleman I spoke to said that the paintball impact would not hurt a dog enough to discourage it and in fact could just anger the dog more and make it more likely to attack. He recommended I use my .22 revolver with hollow point bullets and shoot to kill.

Fortunately, the word got out around the neighborhood that I was thinking about shooting the dogs that kept coming up to my house and attacking my cats and threatening me. (I wonder how that happened? ) I haven't seen those dogs for a couple of years now but I know they are still owned by the same people.

Oh, and Sanford does have a leash law:

It shall be unlawful for any animal owner to allow, either willfully or through failure to exercise due care and control, his animal(s) to run at-large upon public property, unless said public property expressly authorizes the same, or upon private property of others, including common areas of condominiums, cluster homes, planned unit developments, and community associations without the consent of all owners thereof, unless said private property owners authorize the same by express or implied consent.
http://www.seminolecountyfl.gov/dps/...rdinances.aspx

[suzihawk]

Originally Posted by curl_in_progress

Respectfully snipped.

Does anyone think it was possible that Trayvon was still alive when the officers arrived? Just so severely injured that he was not moving? I'm just wondering if he was killed instantly, which would make GZ's claims that Trayvon spoke after he was shot completely false.

I don't think so. Not when he was shot at close range with a hollow point bullet.

JMO, of course.

[Dr.Fessel]

Originally Posted by Karmady

No, not the jury. But I imagine that he has the attention of Ms. Corey and the rest of the prosecution, and I would imagine that the Judge also is taking note. Not that he would be unduly influenced by Dershowitz's commentary -- merely taking note. jmo

IMO if they are taking notes about what he is saying they are drawing in that little laughing guy rolling around right after them.

[Adrienne37]

Originally Posted by Karmady

I wish she would respond. I'd pay money to see Corey go up against one of the most lettered, experienced and respected legal minds of the 20-21st Century. Especially a staunch liberal who's known for civil liberties coming out against the "civil liberties" poster affidavit.

Mr. Dershowitz's words lend nothing to this case so far other than a way to get on television again. He has no clue what evidence the prosecution has or doesn't have. He's not any more privy to this information than anyone else either on this board or in the general public. I seriously doubt that the judge is paying attention to what Dershowitz says. <mod snip>


~jmo~

[Chris_Texas]

Originally Posted by highflyer

Seems unreasonable to me. There is no excuse for letting people contaminate a crime scene.

I am not entirely sure they ever really viewed it as a crime scene. IMO

[shadowraiths]

Speaking of tones of voices...

If you listen to the 3rd 911 tape ( link ), where you can hear the screaming, imho, the screams escalate from calling for help to completely terrified (@ approx the 13 sec mark) and just before the gun goes off. The tone of the individual calling also changes. Not surprisingly, as these screams would quite naturally emotionally affect them. Think vicarious trauma, here.

Imho, it is possible that Trayvon was holding GZ down, trying to push the gun away, while also screaming for help. And that GZ finally gets the gun aimed, through pure force. Hence, Trayvon's screams turn to pure terror.

With this in mind, could this possibly explain the injuries to the back GZ's head? I think so. If Trayvon is trying to hold GZ down, trying to keep him from shooting him, GZ could easily have sustained injuries to the back of his head, while Trayvon would have no bruises on his knuckles. Bc, after all, he wasn't wailing on GZ, he was trying to keep from being shot.

I wasn't there, of course. However, if the screams are indeed Trayvon's, it certainly sounds to me like something like that may very well be what occurred.

[Karmady]

Originally Posted by Dr.Fessel

IMO if they are taking notes about what he is saying they are drawing in that little laughing guy rolling around right after them.

I'm sure you are right. They do seem misguided like that, imo.

[Etilema]

Originally Posted by shadowraiths

Speaking of tones of voices...

If you listen to the 3rd 911 tape ( link ), where you can hear the screaming, imho, the screams escalate from calling for help to completely terrified (@ approx the 13 sec mark) and just before the gun goes off. The tone of the individual calling also changes. Not surprisingly, as these screams would quite naturally emotionally affect them. Think vicarious trauma, here.

Imho, it is possible that Trayvon was holding GZ down, trying to push the gun away, while also screaming for help. And that GZ finally gets the gun aimed, through pure force. Hence, Trayvon's screams turn to pure terror.

With this in mind, could it possibly this explain the injuries to the back GZ's head? I think so. If Trayvon is trying to hold GZ down, trying to keep him from shooting him, GZ could easily have sustained injuries to the back of his head, while Trayvon would have no bruises on his knuckles. Bc, after all, he wasn't wailing on GZ, he was trying to keep from being shot.

I wasn't there, of course. However, if the screams are indeed Trayvon's, it certainly sounds to me like something like that may very well be what occurred.

Yes, a scenario along those lines sounds plausible to me. Maybe the calls for help happening while Trayvon tries to keep GZ from attacking or holding him, then switching to the panicked wailing when GZ gets his gun out.

Just speculating.

[Sherbie]

Originally Posted by Dr.Fessel

Goofy running to a shooting but I guess it is goofy standing out watching tornadoes too.

A gawking crowd, whether witnesses or Nosy Nellies, doesn't surprise me one bit, no matter what the potential danger or gore factor might be.

My dad was in LE all his life, so we heard lots of stories. During his retirement speech, he joked about how one of the things that never changed over his career was the looky-loo; how fascinated people were with both the macabre and the mundane. Nothing too small or too gory to attract a gawking crowd, especially if media were on scene (and in that case, sometimes way more LE than were actually needed, too ).

Have to admit that as little girls, my sister and I were major looky-loo wannabes: "Daddy, an ambulance/fire truck! Follow it...pleeeeease!" He never did and we fortunately outgrew it. Kinda.

[shadowraiths]

Originally Posted by Chris_Texas

I am not entirely sure they ever really viewed it as a crime scene. IMO

Imho, they didn't. Initially. If you read the police report, they didn't secure the scene until *after* they realized Trayvon was dead. ( link, Ricardo Ayala, quoted from the report, emphasis added, mine )

I then noticed that there was, what appeared to be a black male wearing a gray sweater, blue jeans, and white/red sneakers laying face down on the ground. The black male had his hands underneath his body. I attempted to get a response from the black male, but was met with negative results. At that time Sgt. Raimondo arrived and attempted to get a pulse on the black male but none was found. At that time, Sgt. Raimondo and I turned the black male over and began CPR. Sgt. Raimondo did breaths and I did chest compressions.

Sgt. S. McCoy arrived on scene and relieved me continuing compresssions. Sanford Fire Rescue arrived on scene and attempted to revive the subject, but could not. Paramedic Brady pronounced the subject deceased at 1930 hours.

The scene was then secured with crime scene tape by Ofc. Mead and Ofc. Warner. Ofc. Robertson began a crime scene contamination log.

[suspicious1]

Originally Posted by grandmaj

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And he gave -- he the defendant gave numerous interviews to the police did he not.

GILBREATH: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And isn't it true that a lot of statements that he made do not make sense in terms of the injuries that he described. Did he not describe to the police that Mr. Martin had him on the ground and kept bashing his head on the concrete over and over and just physically beating him with his hands?

GILBREATH: He has said that, yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And isn't it true that there is evidence that indicates that's not true?

GILBREATH: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did he also not state that at some point, he the defendant -- did he not state or claim that the victim in this case, Mr. Martin, put both hands one over his mouth and one over his nose so that he couldn't breathe?

GILBREATH: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And all of sudden that's when he was able to get free and grab the gun. Or I'm sorry, Martin was grabbing for the gun, did he not claim that too at some point. climb that?

GILBREATH: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But -- and I'm going to get into every little contradiction but wouldn't you agree that a lot of his statements can be contradicted by the evidence either witnesses or just based on what he says himself?

GILBREATH: Yes.

COSTELLO: Back live to the bond hearing in Sanford, Florida. Mark O'Mara, who is George Zimmerman's attorney is doing another redirect of the state's attorney investigator. They're talking about what injuries George Zimmerman had to his head that night. Let's listen.

GILBREATH: Managed to scoot away from the concrete sidewalk and that is at that point is when the shooting subsequently followed. That is not consistent with the evidence we found.

O'MARA: The injuries seem to be consistent with his story, though, don't they?

Dale; The injuries are consistent with a harder object striking the back of his head than his head was.

O'MARA: Could that be cement?

GILBREATH: Could be.

O'MARA: Did you just say it was consistent or did you say it wasn't consistent?

GILBREATH: I said it was.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIP...20/cnr.02.html

So to me that says the position of the State is that yes he had injuries however they are not consistent with the statements of how they occurred by GZ. According to the evidence we found.

That's what it sounds like to me too, grandma.

Everytime I read this what really jumps out at me is "physically beating him WITH HIS HANDS".

I think that may be part of the problem IF Trayvon had no injuries to his hands. JMO

[Dr.Fessel]

Originally Posted by Sherbie

A gawking crowd, whether witnesses or Nosy Nellies, doesn't surprise me one bit, no matter what the potential danger or gore factor might be.

My dad was in LE all his life, so we heard lots of stories. During his retirement speech, he joked about how one of the things that never changed over his career was the looky-loo; how fascinated people were with both the macabre and the mundane. Nothing too small or too gory to attract a gawking crowd, especially if media were on scene (and in that case, sometimes way more LE than were actually needed, too ).

Have to admit that as little girls, my sister and I were major looky-loo wannabes: "Daddy, an ambulance/fire truck! Follow it...pleeeeease!" He never did and we fortunately outgrew it. Kinda.

This goes a little more to the unusual side. Someone went out there with a flashlight after hearing a gunshot and before the police got there. IMO What was going through their head? I don't know but it could have been bullets.

[deelytful1]

Originally Posted by suzihawk

I don't think so. Not when he was shot at close range with a hollow point bullet.

JMO, of course.

poor Trayvon poor, poor Trayvon...
When he woke up that morning he could have NEVER imagined... sigh. He was with his DAD with his little brother and the day or 2 before (I think it was?) He was surrounded by his his family and church friends. NO ONE could have ever imagined... Sorry.. my emotions took over for a minute.
This was a senseless, senseless crime (IMO.. CRIME) Just wanted to take a minute for the victim and his family....
carry on

[uvamerica]

Originally Posted by katydid23

There were also neighbors and coworkers that were interviewed. I think it is a very good article. I think it sets forth the 'elephant in the room' that many are afraid to discuss here.

What elephant would that be ?

[LolaMoon08]

Round and round we go...

I wish, IMO, people would stop paying so much attention to opinion pieces. We can debate our differences and not bring in all these <modslipping myself> people into this. I could care less what anyone's opinion is! They could have the highest IQ on the planet, and it is still just an opinion.

I have never followed my mind. If I follow my mind, I completely overthink things. So much so that my thinking becomes flawed. I follow my heart. What my heart tells me and it has never lied.

What matters is the evidence! What we have right now, in my heart, tells me George is 100% responsible for Trayvon's death. I'm willing to admit that, as of right now, I think he is guilty of manslaughter and not 2nd Degree Murder, but I don't have the evidence the SA has.

Just because someone gives their opinion, on a news website, doesn't make it fact. It is opinion, just like what we have here.

MOO

[LolaMoon08]

Originally Posted by uvamerica

What elephant would that be ?

I don't know what the "elephant" is either, but I am not scared to discuss anything!

So... what is the elephant in the room?

MOO

[grandmaj]

Maybe come Friday we will see an order to see some of the evidence.

[ynotdivein]

Originally Posted by Dr.Fessel

This goes a little more to the unusual side. Someone went out there with a flashlight after hearing a gunshot and before the police got there. IMO What was going through their head? I don't know but it could have been bullets.

Do we know that the flashlights reported by 911 callers were from neighbors coming out?

Previous WS sleuthing based on the 911 calls indicated that LE was on the scene within a minute or so of GZ firing the gun. Is there evidence yet as to who was (or were?) wielding the flashlight (or flashlights)?

[LolaMoon08]

Originally Posted by grandmaj

Maybe come Friday we will see an order to see some of the evidence.

That would be so nice.

[deelytful1]

Originally Posted by Sherbie

A gawking crowd, whether witnesses or Nosy Nellies, doesn't surprise me one bit, no matter what the potential danger or gore factor might be.

My dad was in LE all his life, so we heard lots of stories. During his retirement speech, he joked about how one of the things that never changed over his career was the looky-loo; how fascinated people were with both the macabre and the mundane. Nothing too small or too gory to attract a gawking crowd, especially if media were on scene (and in that case, sometimes way more LE than were actually needed, too ).

Have to admit that as little girls, my sister and I were major looky-loo wannabes: "Daddy, an ambulance/fire truck! Follow it...pleeeeease!" He never did and we fortunately outgrew it. Kinda.

Funny.. my dad was a NYC Police Officer for 25 years and it had absolutely the OPPOSITE effect on us.. we would NOT look and move on and get pissed at the "looky-loos" slowing down and gawking... I'd NEVER step outside my home to "check out" what I thought was a gunshot!!!! I'd be in my bathroom, with my son calling 911 frantically!

[LolaMoon08]

Originally Posted by deelytful1

Funny.. my dad was a NYC Police Officer for 25 years and it had absolutely the OPPOSITE effect on us.. we would NOT look and move on and get pissed at the "looky-loos" slowing down and gawking... I'd NEVER step outside my home to "check out" what I thought was a gunshot!!!! I'd be in my bathroom, with my son calling 911 frantically!

I was driving down the road once and I heard a gunshot. It was so CLOSE that my body literally went NUMB. I had to tell myself that I hadn't been shot myself and then I just sped off. Never looked back.

[Dr.Fessel]

Originally Posted by ynotdivein

Do we know that the flashlights reported by 911 callers were from neighbors coming out?

Previous WS sleuthing based on the 911 calls indicated that LE was on the scene within a minute or so of GZ firing the gun. Is there evidence yet as to who was (or were?) wielding the flashlight (or flashlights)?

I believe one of the callers said no this is someone that came out of their home when the dispatcher suggested it was the police.