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  #326  
Old 05-09-2012, 12:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Elley Mae View Post
http://www.tampabay.com/news/publics...n-died/1223083

One man interviewed by a local Fox news station, who asked to be identified only as John, said he saw the man wearing a red jacket — Zimmerman — on the ground, being beaten by someone on top of him — Trayvon.

"The guy on the bottom, who I believe had a red sweater on, was yelling to me 'Help, help,' and I told him to stop and I was calling 911. I got upstairs and looked down. The person that was on top beating up the other guy was the one laying in the grass, and I believe he was dead at that point," he said.

bbm I would say that john saw and not believed.jmo Not a guessing game in my opinion.
I don't believe the yelling for help was the same as the screeching sound we heard on the 911 tapes seconds before the gunshot. The boy believes the screaming came from TM. At some point they both could have been yelling for help which could indicate that both felt they were being attacked by an aggressor. But only one is screaming. SA was fortunate to have their timelines right there on the 911 tapes. jmo
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  #327  
Old 05-09-2012, 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Elley Mae View Post
http://www.tampabay.com/news/publics...n-died/1223083

One man interviewed by a local Fox news station, who asked to be identified only as John, said he saw the man wearing a red jacket — Zimmerman — on the ground, being beaten by someone on top of him — Trayvon.

"The guy on the bottom, who I believe had a red sweater on, was yelling to me 'Help, help,' and I told him to stop and I was calling 911. I got upstairs and looked down. The person that was on top beating up the other guy was the one laying in the grass, and I believe he was dead at that point," he said.

bbm I would say that john saw and not believed.jmo Not a guessing game in my opinion.
THIS gets me every time with John's story. IF Trayvon was on the top, GZ on the bottom, yelling "help, help", why in the world would John tell GZ "to stop".
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  #328  
Old 05-09-2012, 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by AngelWings444 View Post
THIS gets me every time with John's story. IF Trayvon was on the top, GZ on the bottom, yelling "help, help", why in the world would John tell GZ "to stop".
I don't think he's being very clear. There are two possible "hims" in what he's saying.
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  #329  
Old 05-09-2012, 12:47 PM
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Originally Posted by AngelWings444 View Post
THIS gets me every time with John's story. IF Trayvon was on the top, GZ on the bottom, yelling "help, help", why in the world would John tell GZ "to stop".
I have no idea, but I am looking forward to hear what he (john) has to say. If there is a trial. jmo I think he is the most important witness.
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  #330  
Old 05-09-2012, 12:48 PM
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Originally Posted by AngelWings444 View Post
THIS gets me every time with John's story. IF Trayvon was on the top, GZ on the bottom, yelling "help, help", why in the world would John tell GZ "to stop".
I find that confusing too. The only explanations that I've been able to come up with are 1) he was telling GZ to stop yelling for help (which makes no sense) or 2) he was referring to TM when he says he told "him" to stop. IMO, it would only make sense to tell the person beating up someone to stop.

JMO, OMO, and
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  #331  
Old 05-09-2012, 12:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Elley Mae View Post
I have no idea, but I am looking forward to hear what he (john) has to say. If there is a trial. jmo I think he is the most important witness.
I agree. He appears to be the only witness who actually saw the confrontation clearly and IIRC his story hasn't changed.
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  #332  
Old 05-09-2012, 01:04 PM
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I'm thinking John made a huge slip, but that's JMO. I believe he told GZ to STOP because GZ had the advantage. Again, JMO.
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  #333  
Old 05-09-2012, 01:27 PM
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Originally Posted by AJ Noiter View Post
I don't think he's being very clear. There are two possible "hims" in what he's saying.
This doesn't appear to be rocket science here, he sees a guy on top of another guy, beating the crap out of him, he yells STOP. He was OBVIOUSLY talking to the person doing the beating. I SAY "obvious" becuase to extend the phrase to "Stop getting the crap beat out of you." makes NO sense.
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  #334  
Old 05-09-2012, 01:36 PM
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Originally Posted by AngelWings444 View Post
I'm thinking John made a huge slip, but that's JMO. I believe he told GZ to STOP because GZ had the advantage. Again, JMO.
I disagree. The last sentence completely supports GZ's story by linking the aggressor (the person doing the beating) to the person who is deceased.

"The guy on the bottom, who I believe had a red sweater on, was yelling to me 'Help, help,' and I told him to stop and I was calling 911. I got upstairs and looked down. The person that was on top beating up the other guy was the one laying in the grass, and I believe he was dead at that point," he said.

There is no mistaking or confusing who was where in this witness account. No "red t-shirt" or "I think" or "it sounded like" or "shadows and figures." This witness states clearly that GZ was being beaten and yelling "help" and that TM was doing the beating and not yelling "help."

JMO, OMO, and
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  #335  
Old 05-09-2012, 01:40 PM
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Originally Posted by zenreaper View Post
This doesn't appear to be rocket science here, he sees a guy on top of another guy, beating the crap out of him, he yells STOP. He was OBVIOUSLY talking to the person doing the beating. I SAY "obvious" becuase to extend the phrase to "Stop getting the crap beat out of you." makes NO sense.
I agree, but I'll play along... for now. I'm sure his statement to the police will be much, much clearer.
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  #336  
Old 05-09-2012, 02:34 PM
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Originally Posted by AJ Noiter View Post
I agree, but I'll play along... for now. I'm sure his statement to the police will be much, much clearer.
Or he could have told GZ to stop screaming.
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  #337  
Old 05-09-2012, 02:36 PM
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Originally Posted by LambChop View Post
I don't believe the yelling for help was the same as the screeching sound we heard on the 911 tapes seconds before the gunshot. The boy believes the screaming came from TM. At some point they both could have been yelling for help which could indicate that both felt they were being attacked by an aggressor. But only one is screaming. SA was fortunate to have their timelines right there on the 911 tapes. jmo
The boy believes screaming came from TM? As far as I can tell this boy never even saw TM.
So how could he possibly believe screaming came from TM?
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  #338  
Old 05-09-2012, 03:46 PM
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Originally Posted by gxm View Post
I disagree. The last sentence completely supports GZ's story by linking the aggressor (the person doing the beating) to the person who is deceased.

"The guy on the bottom, who I believe had a red sweater on, was yelling to me 'Help, help,' and I told him to stop and I was calling 911. I got upstairs and looked down. The person that was on top beating up the other guy was the one laying in the grass, and I believe he was dead at that point," he said.

There is no mistaking or confusing who was where in this witness account. No "red t-shirt" or "I think" or "it sounded like" or "shadows and figures." This witness states clearly that GZ was being beaten and yelling "help" and that TM was doing the beating and not yelling "help."

JMO, OMO, and
That's my take all along as well.
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  #339  
Old 05-09-2012, 04:41 PM
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Originally Posted by jjenny View Post
The boy believes screaming came from TM? As far as I can tell this boy never even saw TM.
So how could he possibly believe screaming came from TM?
How could he not see him if TM was on top???? Maybe he met TM on one of his visits and knew what he sounded like. I don't know just that he felt the screaming was coming from TM. jmo
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Last edited by LambChop; 05-09-2012 at 04:51 PM.
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  #340  
Old 05-09-2012, 04:49 PM
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I never read where any witnesses said TM was beating GZ, other than GZ saying so. It was pretty much wrestling on the ground. Big difference between fighting, wrestling and beating someone. jmo
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  #341  
Old 05-09-2012, 07:54 PM
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[quote=AJ Noiter;7892282]If this were the case you'd think he would've stated, on the phone with his girlfriend, that he saw the weapon. You'd also think that just because he thinks he lost sight of Mr. Zimmerman, he'd still be in a hurry to get home.

Side Note: Not sure about other carriers, but my weapon is in its holster when I put the holster on. I do not remove my weapon from that holster unless I am cleaning it or using it. With that said, it seems silly that someone would get out of a vehicle THEN put the weapon in the holster.[/Q


I never said he got out and put his gun in a holster. That is what you've said.

I said I thought, and it's my opinion , George got out of his truck, and put his gun in the waistband of his pants with his unzipped jacket over it. Many people do just that to reach their weapon easier and more quickly if needed. Especially if they don't want the a###### to get away. He had to have that courage to stalk on foot, with no power and authority, a person that he profiled as guilty in only his own mind.

Again it's my opinion, that when George re-appeared and confronted Trayvon that is was very likely he "showed" his gun and that is what started the struggle.

I don't think, and it's my opinion, Trayvon had time to say anything more than "why are you following me" then George saying what are you doing here and Trayvon seeing the gun.

It's my opinion and very likely Trayvon thought George was going for that gun and from that point on he was trying to get the gun to save his life.

In my opinion, Trayvon had every reason to be alarmed and now he would of had even more reason to be scared.

George may very well of been carrying it in his hand, but it's my opinion, Trayvon saw that gun and that is when he started fighting for his life. His stand your ground to save his life.

Why did George have a weapon on him if not to intimidate or detain Trayvon. George lost control of a situation that he himself created.

In my opinion, George killed a young boy because he's a bully. A self appointed gunslinger. A wanna be cop. I guess he wanted his "fellow" LE to pat him on the back for catching a bad guy.

Why diss Trayvon for not hurrying back? He was doing nothing wrong. He was going home talking on the phone. He wasn't the aggressor. He wasn't the one up to no good.

George was the one that got out of his truck armed, and it doesn't really matter if the gun was in a holster or up his butt. George screwed up. He needs to put on a pair and tell the truth and take his punishment.
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  #342  
Old 05-09-2012, 08:25 PM
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I never said he got out and put his gun in a holster. That is what you've said.

I said I thought, and it's my opinion , George got out of his truck, and put his gun in the waistband of his pants with his unzipped jacket over it. Many people do just that to reach their weapon easier and more quickly if needed. Especially if they don't want the a###### to get away. He had to have that courage to stalk on foot, with no power and authority, a person that he profiled as guilty in only his own mind.

Again it's my opinion, that when George re-appeared and confronted Trayvon that is was very likely he "showed" his gun and that is what started the struggle.

I don't think, and it's my opinion, Trayvon had time to say anything more than "why are you following me" then George saying what are you doing here and Trayvon seeing the gun.

It's my opinion and very likely Trayvon thought George was going for that gun and from that point on he was trying to get the gun to save his life.

In my opinion, Trayvon had every reason to be alarmed and now he would of had even more reason to be scared.

George may very well of been carrying it in his hand, but it's my opinion, Trayvon saw that gun and that is when he started fighting for his life. His stand your ground to save his life.

Why did George have a weapon on him if not to intimidate or detain Trayvon. George lost control of a situation that he himself created.

In my opinion, George killed a young boy because he's a bully. A self appointed gunslinger. A wanna be cop. I guess he wanted his "fellow" LE to pat him on the back for catching a bad guy.

Why diss Trayvon for not hurrying back? He was doing nothing wrong. He was going home talking on the phone. He wasn't the aggressor. He wasn't the one up to no good.

George was the one that got out of his truck armed, and it doesn't really matter if the gun was in a holster or up his butt. George screwed up. He needs to put on a pair and tell the truth and take his punishment.
I do apologize, I'm pedantic about some things too. A correction to my statement would be to change the word "holster" to "waistband," and you would still have my opinion. It doesn't make sense for Mr. Martin to see the weapon and not say something.
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  #343  
Old 05-09-2012, 08:31 PM
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I agree. He appears to be the only witness who actually saw the confrontation clearly and IIRC his story hasn't changed.
How would his story change? He hasn't given any interviews other than the man at the door one. jmo
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  #344  
Old 05-09-2012, 08:51 PM
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[quote=ILikeToBendPages;7895127]
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Originally Posted by AJ Noiter View Post
If this were the case you'd think he would've stated, on the phone with his girlfriend, that he saw the weapon. You'd also think that just because he thinks he lost sight of Mr. Zimmerman, he'd still be in a hurry to get home.

Side Note: Not sure about other carriers, but my weapon is in its holster when I put the holster on. I do not remove my weapon from that holster unless I am cleaning it or using it. With that said, it seems silly that someone would get out of a vehicle THEN put the weapon in the holster.[/Q


I never said he got out and put his gun in a holster. That is what you've said.

I said I thought, and it's my opinion , George got out of his truck, and put his gun in the waistband of his pants with his unzipped jacket over it. Many people do just that to reach their weapon easier and more quickly if needed. Especially if they don't want the a###### to get away. He had to have that courage to stalk on foot, with no power and authority, a person that he profiled as guilty in only his own mind.

Again it's my opinion, that when George re-appeared and confronted Trayvon that is was very likely he "showed" his gun and that is what started the struggle.

I don't think, and it's my opinion, Trayvon had time to say anything more than "why are you following me" then George saying what are you doing here and Trayvon seeing the gun.

It's my opinion and very likely Trayvon thought George was going for that gun and from that point on he was trying to get the gun to save his life.

In my opinion, Trayvon had every reason to be alarmed and now he would of had even more reason to be scared.

George may very well of been carrying it in his hand, but it's my opinion, Trayvon saw that gun and that is when he started fighting for his life. His stand your ground to save his life.

Why did George have a weapon on him if not to intimidate or detain Trayvon. George lost control of a situation that he himself created.

In my opinion, George killed a young boy because he's a bully. A self appointed gunslinger. A wanna be cop. I guess he wanted his "fellow" LE to pat him on the back for catching a bad guy.

Why diss Trayvon for not hurrying back? He was doing nothing wrong. He was going home talking on the phone. He wasn't the aggressor. He wasn't the one up to no good.

George was the one that got out of his truck armed, and it doesn't really matter if the gun was in a holster or up his butt. George screwed up. He needs to put on a pair and tell the truth and take his punishment.
I am curious as to how many gun owners you know in order to come up with the idea that "many" gun owners carry a gun in their waistband? I assure you, as someone who DOES know a lot of gun owners and who carries themselves, I would NEVER EVER carry a gun in my waistband, ESPECIALLY if I was walking any distance.

You have also stated that TM "saw" the gun and went after it. This fails the logic test on two levels. First, and FOREMOST, if you see someone carrying a gun, and you "go for it", YOU have committed a crime. If you grab for MY gun, I will shoot you.

As to why GZ had a gun? Simple, he WANTED to. And in the UNITED STATES, that is all that is required.

"In my opinion, George killed a young boy because he's a bully. A self appointed gunslinger. A wanna be cop. I guess he wanted his "fellow" LE to pat him on the back for catching a bad guy."

I guess it was convenient for him that the boy decided to ATTACK GZ (my opinion, and the evidence points in that direction), giving him a reasonable excuse to do what you claim, with NO evidence, he wanted to do anyway.
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  #345  
Old 05-09-2012, 09:07 PM
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Am not sure who was screaming for help. The first thing that comes to mind is Trayvon yelling for help as it stopped as soon as he was shot. Keep coming back to the call that George made to the police though and the way it sounds as if someone is going down a list from the NWH manual. Screaming is in there too.
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  #346  
Old 05-09-2012, 09:18 PM
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Originally Posted by LambChop View Post
How could he not see him if TM was on top???? Maybe he met TM on one of his visits and knew what he sounded like. I don't know just that he felt the screaming was coming from TM. jmo
????
The 13 year old boy says he saw one person on the ground, not two.
He also never claimed to know Trayvon.
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  #347  
Old 05-09-2012, 09:21 PM
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I never read where any witnesses said TM was beating GZ, other than GZ saying so. It was pretty much wrestling on the ground. Big difference between fighting, wrestling and beating someone. jmo
The original comment includes a link to the witness' statement:
Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - The cries for help


Here is the quote from the article linked in the original comment:

One man interviewed by a local Fox news station, who asked to be identified only as John, said he saw the man wearing a red jacket — Zimmerman — on the ground, being beaten by someone on top of him — Trayvon.

"The guy on the bottom, who I believe had a red sweater on, was yelling to me 'Help, help,' and I told him to stop and I was calling 911. I got upstairs and looked down. The person that was on top beating up the other guy was the one laying in the grass, and I believe he was dead at that point," he said.


BBM. The witness says that TM was "beating up" GZ. Not wrestling with him. Beating him up.
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  #348  
Old 05-09-2012, 09:25 PM
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How would his story change? He hasn't given any interviews other than the man at the door one. jmo
IMO, other "witness" stories are markedly different than their original 911 call(s).

JMO, OMO, and
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Old 05-09-2012, 09:58 PM
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IMO, other "witness" stories are markedly different than their original 911 call(s).

JMO, OMO, and
I think this is especially glaring with Mary Cutcher who in the middle of March was saying that she knew it was the "little boy" who was shot and that TM was "half the size" of GZ. Those extra details are not true but because Mary Cutcher was a nearby earwitness her words got repeated by many as if she was authority. Even Congresswoman Corrine Brown's letter to Attorney General Holder quoted Cutcher.
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Old 05-09-2012, 10:09 PM
Alecto Alecto is offline
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BBM

Does anyone know if TM had a young sounding voice, as in it had not changed yet? IMO, most male teens have passed that stage of puberty by the age of 17 but perhaps TM hadn't. I don't know. I just don't see how "sounds like the voice of a young male" is convincing evidence when the case involves a 17-year old and a 28-year old. I don't think pitch-wise that they'd sound much different, IOW they'd both sound like young men.
TM's mother has previously mentioned that TM's voice changed when he was fifteen:

Fulton, remembers when Trayvon’s voice seemingly deepened overnight and the summer when he was 15 and sprouted two strands of hair on his chin.

“He just wanted to, you know, mature and he wanted to be a man and he was almost there,” Fulton said.
http://insidedateline.msnbc.msn.com/...ight-path?lite
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