What evidence does the prosecution have?

[thefragile7393]

Originally Posted by Karmady

It really isn't depending on the break. I've had my nose broken several times and I never got it treated at all, much less on an urgent basis except maybe once, and I can't even say for sure it was so long ago. In any case, there's not much they can do for it unless your nose is so smashed that your breathing is seriously impaired and reconstructive surgery is needed

Rather OT but your response reminded me of that scene in Million Dollar Baby when Clint Eastwood fixes Hilary Swank's nose *cringe*

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[katydid23]

Originally Posted by Just K

14 miles for a specialist in an urban area is one thing but 14 miles for a General Practitioner or Internal Medicine Facility seems a bit of a stretch given the 108 yellow page listings, in the Sanford vicinity, for the same.

`14 miles is nothing. It is literally minutes out of one's day to drive 14 miles.

And maybe he had a hard time getting in anywhere else. Or maybe he knew someone there and/or had been a patient there before so he wanted to go back there.

It is just kind of weird how some are now accusing DOCTORS of falsifying medical records in a felony murder case, rather than accept that GZ might have been in a physical fight.

[Karmady]

Originally Posted by thefragile7393

Rather OT but your response reminded me of that scene in Million Dollar Baby when Clint Eastwood fixes Hilary Swank's nose *cringe*

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More o/t but that was one of the saddest movies ever! I was sorry I watched it :(

[Sherbie]

Originally Posted by HiHater

A broken nose would be something I'd consider an emergency. :twocents:

I think in most situations, for most people, it would be considered an emergency - certainly would be for me. But to be fair, I think if I knew I'd just taken another human being's life, unless my eyeball was hanging out or I had bones jutting from my skin or such, my immediate concern would be trying to grasp and deal with the enormity of what had just happened.

For all we know, EMS could have told him he would probably be fine to wait on medical attention, given him an explanation of symptoms of a concussion and advice to seek help if he developed them. There's just too much we don't know yet. I hope we soon get to see the EMS and doctor's reports for ourselves.

[HiHater]

Originally Posted by Sherbie

I think in most situations, for most people, it would be considered an emergency - certainly would be for me. But to be fair, I think if I knew I'd just taken another human being's life, unless my eyeball was hanging out or I had bones jutting from my skin or such, my immediate concern would be trying to grasp and deal with the enormity of what had just happened.

For all we know, EMS could have told him he would probably be fine to wait on medical attention, given him an explanation of symptoms of a concussion and advice to seek help if he developed them. There's just too much we don't know yet. I hope we soon get to see the EMS and doctor's reports for ourselves.

Good point.

[wowitsdark]

This piece indicates that the Dr. Zimmerman saw the day after the incident stated that he was there so he could get legal clearance to return to work: http://abcnews.go.com/US/george-zimm...2#.T7M_ylKV2j4

It doesn't sound like he went in *for* treatment.

Who knows what his experience with broken noses was? He may have had a broken nose before and known there isn't much that can be done about them. Maybe he googled 'broken nose treatment'. Maybe somebody at the police station mentioned his nose and said, "It's too bad they can't really do anything for those."

We just don't know.

[Cher352]

14 miles is nothing to me either especially considering Sanford and Altamonte are connected by I-4. Takes only minutes to get between the two cities.

Altamonte is also a much bigger city. I still see my dentist there and it is a 32 mile one way trip for me. I also still use the same eye doctor that did my cataract surgery and he is almost 50 miles away.

[AJ Noiter]

Originally Posted by wowitsdark

This piece indicates that the Dr. Zimmerman saw the day after the incident stated that he was there so he could get legal clearance to return to work: http://abcnews.go.com/US/george-zimm...2#.T7M_ylKV2j4

It doesn't sound like he went in *for* treatment.

Who knows what his experience with broken noses was? He may have had a broken nose before and known there isn't much that can be done about them. Maybe he googled 'broken nose treatment'. Maybe somebody at the police station mentioned his nose and said, "It's too bad they can't really do anything for those."

We just don't know.

My theory is that he didn't want to go in but after 10min of the wife nagging at him he gave in :floorlaugh:

[Cher352]

Originally Posted by AJ Noiter

My theory is that he didn't want to go in but after 10min of the wife nagging at him he gave in :floorlaugh:

You made me laugh! My husband is like that only it usually takes much longer that 10 minutes for me.

[Just K]

AFAIK, no one here has accused the doc or his staff of falsifying anything.

What I do see is OPs wondering why if GZ was so severely injured, as he and his friends and family would have us believe, why would he not go to an ER or Urgent Care facility. In addition, he had 108 options in the Sanford Community and he chose to go 14 miles away to a doc whose specialty is Internal Medicine and Osteopathy.

The other point that OPs have made is that GZ could have further injured himself anytime after he left the police station and before going to the doc.

<modsnip>

[HiHater]

Originally Posted by Just K

AFAIK, no one here has accused the doc or his staff of falsifying anything.

What I do see is OPs wondering why if GZ was so severely injured, as he and his friends and family would have us believe, why would he not go to an ER or Urgent Care facility. In addition, he had 108 options in the Sanford Community and he chose to go 14 miles away to a doc whose specialty is Internal Medicine and Osteopathy.

The other point that OPs have made is that GZ could have further injured himself anytime after he left the police station and before going to the doc.

It is heart wrenching to see WS members accused of things that are not posted, AFAIK, here in the Trayvon threads.

Now that I think about it, I too have to wonder why he needed to see this "family" physician, and refused treatment from all other outsiders (EMTs, nose/throat doc, ER)...no conspiracy, nothing nefarious, just wondering. It could be as simple as he doesn't trust medical professionals...

[Sherbie]

Originally Posted by AJ Noiter

My theory is that he didn't want to go in but after 10min of the wife nagging at him he gave in :floorlaugh:

Hope you own a helmet. :angel:

:giggle:

[katydid23]

Originally Posted by Just K

AFAIK, no one here has accused the doc or his staff of falsifying anything.

What I do see is OPs wondering why if GZ was so severely injured, as he and his friends and family would have us believe, why would he not go to an ER or Urgent Care facility. In addition, he had 108 options in the Sanford Community and he chose to go 14 miles away to a doc whose specialty is Internal Medicine and Osteopathy.

The other point that OPs have made is that GZ could have further injured himself anytime after he left the police station and before going to the doc.

It is heart wrenching to see WS members accused of things that are not posted, AFAIK, here in the Trayvon threads.

Originally Posted by Isabelle
It sure took a while to find a doc willing to provide documentation for injuries that can't be proven at this late date!


Sorry, but when I read that post, it seemed to me like it was accusing the doctor of something. ' to find a doc willing to provide documentation...'

what else does that mean, 'to find a doc willing to provide documentation'

and to imply on top of that that it ' TOOK AWHILE'? Sorry, but the implication is there . JMO

[HiHater]

Originally Posted by katydid23

Originally Posted by Isabelle
It sure took a while to find a doc willing to provide documentation for injuries that can't be proven at this late date!


Sorry, but when I read that post, it seemed to me like it was accusing the doctor of something. ' to find a doc willing to provide documentation...'

what else does that mean, 'to find a doc willing to provide documentation'

and to imply on top of that that it ' TOOK AWHILE'? Sorry, but the implication is there . JMO

It implies "doctor shopping" on Zimmerman's behalf, and not falsification on a doctor's behalf.

JMO

[katydid23]

Originally Posted by HiHater

Now that I think about it, I too have to wonder why he needed to see this "family" physician, and refused treatment from all other outsiders (EMTs, nose/throat doc, ER)...no conspiracy, nothing nefarious, just wondering. It could be as simple as he doesn't trust medical professionals...

I don't think he 'refused' treatment by the EMT's. I thought it was said they cleaned him up and 'cleared' him.

Why would he need to go to an ear/nose/throat specialist the next day? You usually need a referral to see a specialist like that. And they would not be available on an immediate basis, in my experience, anyway.

He did the 'normal' thing, imo. He went to a regular family clinic and had his injuries looked at.

[katydid23]

Originally Posted by HiHater

It implies "doctor shopping" on Zimmerman's behalf, and not falsification on a doctor's behalf.

JMO

I saw nothing there about 'doctor shopping.' The implication was that he took a long time to' find someone' to write up some documents. I think it was pretty clear what the implication was, imo.

the term 'willing to document something' does not imply a regular, honest doctor visit with the regular paperwork. Why wouldn't a doctor be 'willing' to document a regular dcotor's appointment? ALL appointments MUST be documented.

ETA;and saying ' it took awhile' ---that in itself implies it is false documentation. How else would it take awhile? He saw a doctor the next day. So the ONLY way it would have taken awhile is if it was false.

[katydid23]

Originally Posted by HiHater

It implies "doctor shopping" on Zimmerman's behalf, and not falsification on a doctor's behalf.

JMO

'Doctor shopping' implies going to various doctors until you find ones that will fill bogus descriptions, etc. So how is it not implying something negative about the doctor?

And what does it mean that he 'doctor shopped?' What did this doctor do that the alleged 'other doctors' would not do?

Again, it is obvious that there is an accusation implied, imo.

[BiancaS]

Originally Posted by wowitsdark

As was pointed out, however, at that point in time, nobody had a clue this case would become a national issue.

There would have been no reason for GZ to think he needed to create a cover story at that point. He had already been questioned at length by the police the night before, and I would assume that the stories he told each of them (the police and the Dr.) align.

I would say the fact that there was a 17 year old that was lying dead in the morgue would be reason enough to do everything possible to make sure that the self defense story would stick. We have already heard in court that there were various stories told to LE by GZ and we have heard the numerous versions from his family and original attorneys (shaken baby syndrome, anyone?). MOO.

[AJ Noiter]

Originally Posted by BiancaS

I would say the fact that there was a 17 year old that was lying dead in the morgue would be reason enough to do everything possible to make sure that the self defense story would stick. We have already heard in court that there were various stories told to LE by GZ and we have heard the numerous versions from his family and original attorneys (shaken baby syndrome, anyone?). MOO.

At that point no one knew who he was or how old he was.

[BiancaS]

Well, I stopped the video and captured images of the medical report. SURPRISE!! Things are not exactly as ABC reported and everyone else is repeating! GZ told the Doctor he had a broken nose, the doctor said it was probably the case and recommended he see an ENT. GZ told the doctor he would not be going right on the spot! And, contrary to what his brother and father had said, the report says there were no sutures needed due to the "well approximated skin margins." They had said he should have had stitches, but it was too late.

He was also complaining about his tonsils and his joints were achy. And he has irritable bowel syndrome.

He did get some pain pills out of the visit.

By the way, this ABC video confirms that he refused to go to the hospital the night of the incident.

[AJ Noiter]

Originally Posted by BiancaS

Well, I stopped the video and captured images of the medical report. SURPRISE!! Things are not exactly as ABC reported and everyone else is repeating! GZ told the Doctor he had a broken nose, the doctor said it was probably the case and recommended he see an ENT. GZ told the doctor he would not be going right on the spot! And, contrary to what his brother and father had said, the report says there were no sutures needed due to the "well approximated skin margins." They had said he should have had stitches, but it was too late.

He was also complaining about his tonsils and his joints were achy. And he has irritable bowel syndrome.

He did get some pain pills out of the visit.

By the way, this ABC video confirms that he refused to go to the hospital the night of the incident.

I see the words "We documented that it was likely broken." but I'm not seeing where Mr. Zimmerman told the doctor he had a broken nose, and even then the verbiage could have been "I think my nose is broken" and apparently the doctor agreed.

This could be because the image is so small that you can't really make anything out, also. A full sized image would be nice, otherwise I'll just wait for the release.

Edit: As a side note, tonsils aching.. caused by yelling perhaps? I'm not a med person so I can't say.

[who]

Originally Posted by AJ Noiter

I see the words "We documented that it was likely broken." but I'm not seeing where Mr. Zimmerman told the doctor he had a broken nose, and even then the verbiage could have been "I think my nose is broken" and apparently the doctor agreed.

This could be because the image is so small that you can't really make anything out, also. A full sized image would be nice, otherwise I'll just wait for the release.

Correction: It reads "We discussed that it was likely broken." Not 'documented.'

[Sherbie]

I don't see anything contradictory in what the media was reporting and what I could see of the doctor's report (I went to abcnews.com and watched the video full-screen and paused on the report pages). The doctor listed broken nose as a diagnosis in the top section of the page. In the report, he says that the nose was likely broken and that the black eyes and swelling are typical with that type of injury.

The "pain pill" was Lodine, which is just an NSAID (anti-inflammatory).

[Sun48shine]

Originally Posted by Sherbie

I don't see anything contradictory in what the media was reporting and what I could see of the doctor's report (I went to abcnews.com and watched the video full-screen and paused on the report pages). The doctor listed broken nose as a diagnosis in the top section of the page. In the report, he says that the nose was likely broken and that the black eyes and swelling are typical with that type of injury.

The "pain pill" was Lodine, which is just an NSAID (anti-inflammatory).

They should have taken xrays When I was in a car accident and hit my nose on the dashboard, xrays were taken. The doctor requested the xrays of my nose. I was glad there were no breaks.

[AJ Noiter]

Originally Posted by Sun48shine

They should have taken xrays When I was in a car accident and hit my nose on the dashboard, xrays were taken. The doctor requested the xrays of my nose. I was glad there were no breaks.

Sometimes not all measures need to be taken. From stories told here on these forums I've gathered that it's common for black eyes to occur with a broken nose. Given the amount of pain, where it's coming from, and the black eyes it may be enough for a doctor to determine that the cause is a fractured nose.

Just my thought.

Edit: An example that I -can- speak of is tumors. I have a rather large tumor under my left eye. When I saw my doctor about it he moved it around for a few seconds and said it was nothing to worry about. He didn't need to do a biopsy to know this, and I can't tell you why. I trust his judgement even though it does bother me not knowing how he would know without doing a biopsy.