Australia - Allison Baden-Clay, 43, Brisbane QLD, 19 April 2012 - #6 - Page 41

coolcat · #**1001** 05-12-2012, 07:02 AM

No one has ever answered me everytime I have questioned this and IMO I think it would be helpful to know what GBC's and ABC's movements were earlier on in the day ... In ABC"S case before hairdressers and GBC before 10PM......Locals may have heard or seen them that dy or even heard or know someone who herd what they did...Was GBC at work all day? Did ABC go to work?

I really thinksomething has significant has happened in the lead up to 10pm if in fact a fight has happened between the 2 of them or perhaps an altercation through the day with lady friend.

Hawkins · #**1002** 05-12-2012, 07:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by itsthevibe

Could you elaborate in detail how this would happen - i mean step by step, an example of an actual killing? And why you would describe it as 'unintentional'? I was trying to point out in my recent post about this that there is a knowledge at the time that you are actually killing someone, you can either see clearly that you are, you continue actions until you have, or you are performing extremely violent actions that would reasonably be known to result in killing someone (such as bludgeoning them) and you can decide

In Qld to be convicted of murder the Crown must show that the accused intended to inflict GBH or death to some person at the time of the killing. In the past many people have only been charged with manslaughter on the grounds that a single punch would not be likely to seriously injure or kill. Sometimes a person is shoved and they fall and suffer sub cranial injuries, without the accused having intended serious injury. Unless you have very precise evidence about how death occurred and about who did what to whom and when, it is very difficult to establish the requisite intention. Proving beyond reasonable doubt what a person's intention was at a given time requires very specific evidence. The defense of accident can also be available, as can diminished responsibility. Police need to be mindful of all these factors when investigating and interviewing.

clem1970 · #**1003** 05-12-2012, 07:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by coolcat

No one has ever answered me everytime I have questioned this and IMO I think it would be helpful to know what GBC's and ABC's movements were earlier on in the day ... In ABC"S case before hairdressers and GBC before 10PM......Locals may have heard or seen them that dy or even heard or know someone who herd what they did...Was GBC at work all day? Did ABC go to work?

I really thinksomething has significant has happened in the lead up to 10pm if in fact a fight has happened between the 2 of them or perhaps an altercation through the day with lady friend.

It was reported a while back in these threads that they both attended their daughters' school sports day during the day.

CaseClosed · #**1004** 05-12-2012, 07:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by coolcat

No one has ever answered me everytime I have questioned this and IMO I think it would be helpful to know what GBC's and ABC's movements were earlier on in the day ... In ABC"S case before hairdressers and GBC before 10PM......Locals may have heard or seen them that dy or even heard or know someone who herd what they did...Was GBC at work all day? Did ABC go to work?

I really thinksomething has significant has happened in the lead up to 10pm if in fact a fight has happened between the 2 of them or perhaps an altercation through the day with lady friend.

Sorry, I don't think we know more than that. But am sure the police do know by now.

Hillsdon · #**1005** 05-12-2012, 07:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by itsthevibe

Elspeth, it has already been established that the kids were having a sleepover with friends on that night. If you haven't been following the discussion here in detail from the beginning, there are a couple of things which were misreported or taken out of context at first, which have since been cleared up. One was the childrens sleepover location, the other was initial reports about the 10pm walk at night thing, but this was clarified fairly soon to reflect that GBC reported he last saw Allison at 10pm when he went to bed and she was watching the footy show. I am not sure which link, or links, to find all these details, it may be on the timeline, but as i recall GBC reported Allison missing to police at 7.30am after she didnt return from her mornig walk. This has been taken to mean that he is saying that he wouldnt have questioned her absence in the morning at first, because if she goes on a regular walk it could be reasonable to expect that on some mornings he may wake after she has left. So bascially he has reported her missing at 7.30am because she should have been back by say, 6.30am or 7am.

Others may be able to clarify if I've got this right, but I consider this is where we are now. some people have questioned why GBC would call police if Allison had been late back from her walk for only half an hour, or 1 hour maximum.

As for the news reports that he was frantically texting people as to her whereabouts, I'm not sure of the time he was supposed to have done the texting. I thought I read this very early on and it was when there was the confusion about her going for a walk in the evening. I think the report implied the texting was done in the evening because it prompted some discussion about why he would have then gone to bed if she hadnt come back. Personally i think this was misreported by journos extrapolating on the misinformation that GBC had said Allison went for a walk at 10pm.

Hi itsthevibe as far is I have read, you are right with the discussed topics above. The text thing falls under initial media confusion in my book as well. I doubt there were texts, and they have not been mentioned in the papers.

Thinking · #**1006** 05-12-2012, 07:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamAWish

I'm a local, have seen the century21 white 4WD running around over time, parked beside it at at the supermarket, recognise faces, probably know people who know people, etc.. although I do not know the family myself.

Thanks DreamAWish - I am exactly the same as you locally, and Allison's face is so very familiar to me I'm sure I've rubbed shoulders with her at the supermarket or sat next to her and girls at Cafe Fiori in Kenmore Village after dancing lessons....she has had the same impact on me as you describe. Thank you for sharing and we would love you to participate more than once. Welcome!

Keyboredom · #**1007** 05-12-2012, 07:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hawkins

It is also extremely common in sexual play. Especially where three people are involved in the sexual act.

Oh no you didn't! Now that has come from you, my logical mind is having issues with its own credibility.

coolcat · #**1008** 05-12-2012, 07:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by clem1970

It was reported a while back in these threads that they both attended their daughters' school sports day during the day.

Oh Geez!!! I do rememeber that now and it was in answer to me asking same question...Sorry...Serious Bimbo moment happening on my behalf?

Anyone know if they left at same time or together and where they went from there I assume school finishes at 3pm so I wonder what happened after that and who took the kids?

On another note I really feel sorry for the poor staff of C21 Westside...Jobs must feel like they are up in the air at the moment...I notice that there aren't to many properties listed and I know I wouldn't sell my house with them knowing what I know about their business problems at the moment?

Do the BC's own the building they are in now or is it leased? It is a bit flash for a business that is apparently in financial crisis?

itsthevibe · #**1009** 05-12-2012, 07:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CaseClosed

I won't put a stop by step example because there could be many scenarios, but I admit the word "unintentional" was not what I meant (sorry, English is not my first language). I meant "not planned in advance". I don't think, if the husband killed her, that he walked into the room thinking: I'm going to kill you now!!
I think it evolved from an argument into a physical fight and rage took over. If, strangulation was the COD, then I still believe it evolved from an argument and it was not pre-planned.

Thanks for your response, fair enough i understand now.

In my earlier post (not the one where I quoted you, my post about murder which is not premeditated), that was one major part of my point. That people are a bit slack in their terminology, and it's such a serious issue. I am not attacking you as i am sticking to the rules of the forum which I think are good, and I also accept your comments about english not being your first language.

But for others (and I am speaking generally here) I think it is a very important distinction to make in the way it is spoken about. It can easily sound as if it is simply an accident, if you didn't premeditate it. This case is most likely about murder and it needs to be treated and spoken of as such. Men who try to silence their wives through violence have to be stopped, not run rampant and say they didnt mean to kill, or the rage took over so its not their fault. This is a huge part of the problem of these men, not taking responsibility for their feelings, acting out feelings of anger, and not taking responsibility for their behaviour. I personally feel it is important to think about this when we refer to these situations.

Thanks again for responding.

Hillsdon · #**1010** 05-12-2012, 07:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by clem1970

It was reported a while back in these threads that they both attended their daughters' school sports day during the day.

Clem1970 this is not confirmed, I understand that gbc went to the cross country and abc dropped the girls off to school, but did not stay. ApparentLy she looked drawn and sad on Thursday morning.

Liadan · #**1011** 05-12-2012, 07:17 AM

Courier Mail is speaking to ABC best friend
http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/q...-1226353690726

we might get some more insight into ABC's family routines.

bellgirl · #**1012** 05-12-2012, 07:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by coolcat

No one has ever answered me everytime I have questioned this and IMO I think it would be helpful to know what GBC's and ABC's movements were earlier on in the day ... In ABC"S case before hairdressers and GBC before 10PM......Locals may have heard or seen them that dy or even heard or know someone who herd what they did...Was GBC at work all day? Did ABC go to work?

I really thinksomething has significant has happened in the lead up to 10pm if in fact a fight has happened between the 2 of them or perhaps an altercation through the day with lady friend.

Coolcat, someone said in an earlier post (much earlier) that both ABC and GBC were at the girl's school during the day for a sports carnival. They were cheering their girls along, like all other mums and dads. I'm sorry I can't remember who it was - obviously a local. That's all I've heard/read about the day - leading up to the hair appointment.

clem1970 · #**1013** 05-12-2012, 07:20 AM

[quote=coolcat;7909462]Oh Geez!!! I do rememeber that now and it was in answer to me asking same question...Sorry...Serious Bimbo moment happening on my behalf?

We would all be hard pushed to remember everything that has been said on this Forum over the last few weeks.

I too have thought about the innocent agents and staff at C21. Through no fault of their own, they have had their world turned upside down and their livelihood threatened.

minni · #**1014** 05-12-2012, 07:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by coolcat

Oh Geez!!! I do rememeber that now and it was in answer to me asking same question...Sorry...Serious Bimbo moment happening on my behalf?

Anyone know if they left at same time or together and where they went from there I assume school finishes at 3pm so I wonder what happened after that and who took the kids?

I seem to remember that quote not being on the Thursday for some reason.....I will go back and check as I am probably wrong!! they did attend sports day together...I remember that much, I just didnt think it was that day...maybe check the school to find out if there was a sports day on that day...any locals know?

CJ60 · #**1015** 05-12-2012, 07:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MysteriousWorld

I am fairly sure that between setting up forward command posts and dedicating phone lines encouraging public interaction, the QPS absolutely want the public to provide leads, information and local inside information which may be useful in their investigations. Once received it is up to them what and how the information is used.

Went to look for a map and came back to 6 pages and a bit of an argy bargy on Crimestoppers.
Totally agree with what you say MysteriousWorld- and if all this relates to Tyamolum call, as far as I am concerned - this is pretty close to where Allison was put in the water. A call worth making .... and for QPS to act on if they choose. They may have found Allison sooner.

CaseClosed · #**1016** 05-12-2012, 07:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by itsthevibe

Thanks for your response, fair enough i understand now.

In my earlier post (not the one where I quoted you, my post about murder which is not premeditated), that was one major part of my point. That people are a bit slack in their terminology, and it's such a serious issue. I am not attacking you as i am sticking to the rules of the forum which I think are good, and I also accept your comments about english not being your first language.

But for others (and I am speaking generally here) I think it is a very important distinction to make in the way it is spoken about. It can easily sound as if it is simply an accident, if you didn't premeditate it. This case is most likely about murder and it needs to be treated and spoken of as such. Men who try to silence their wives through violence have to be stopped, not run rampant and say they didnt mean to kill, or the rage took over so its not their fault. This is a huge part of the problem of these men, not taking responsibility for their feelings, acting out feelings of anger, and not taking responsibility for their behaviour. I personally feel it is important to think about this when we refer to these situations.

Thanks again for responding.

Thanks. I am a woman and I agree totally with you that men should not get away with excuses as to why they hurt their partners (but women also use DV against men sometimes). I do place some responsibility on the women also. They can put a stop to it by leaving (with the kids) and seeking help either from family, friends, shelters, etc., but "appearances" do seem to play a big role in the perpetuation of DV.

minni · #**1017** 05-12-2012, 07:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by minni

I seem to remember that quote not being on the Thursday for some reason.....I will go back and check as I am probably wrong!! they did attend sports day together...I remember that much, I just didnt think it was that day...maybe check the school to find out if there was a sports day on that day...any locals know?

sorry..slow following posts today...Ill try and keep up!

coolcat · #**1018** 05-12-2012, 07:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hawkins

Several homicide trials n Brisbane is past two years involving threesomes going wrong, usually asphyxiation.

I won't believe that this happened and also can not believe that this is being considered???

Can we please not go there?

Hillsdon · #**1019** 05-12-2012, 07:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by minni

I seem to remember that quote not being on the Thursday for some reason.....I will go back and check as I am probably wrong!! they did attend sports day together...I remember that much, I just didnt think it was that day...maybe check the school to find out if there was a sports day on that day...any locals know?

Read my response 4 up.

Elspeth · #**1020** 05-12-2012, 07:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by itsthevibe

Elspeth, it has already been established that the kids were having a sleepover with friends on that night. If you haven't been following the discussion here in detail from the beginning, there are a couple of things which were misreported or taken out of context at first, which have since been cleared up. One was the childrens sleepover location, the other was initial reports about the 10pm walk at night thing, but this was clarified fairly soon to reflect that GBC reported he last saw Allison at 10pm when he went to bed and she was watching the footy show. I am not sure which link, or links, to find all these details, it may be on the timeline, but as i recall GBC reported Allison missing to police at 7.30am after she didnt return from her mornig walk. This has been taken to mean that he is saying that he wouldnt have questioned her absence in the morning at first, because if she goes on a regular walk it could be reasonable to expect that on some mornings he may wake after she has left. So bascially he has reported her missing at 7.30am because she should have been back by say, 6.30am or 7am.

Others may be able to clarify if I've got this right, but I consider this is where we are now. some people have questioned why GBC would call police if Allison had been late back from her walk for only half an hour, or 1 hour maximum.

As for the news reports that he was frantically texting people as to her whereabouts, I'm not sure of the time he was supposed to have done the texting. I thought I read this very early on and it was when there was the confusion about her going for a walk in the evening. I think the report implied the texting was done in the evening because it prompted some discussion about why he would have then gone to bed if she hadnt come back. Personally i think this was misreported by journos extrapolating on the misinformation that GBC had said Allison went for a walk at 10pm.

Many thanks for this information itsthevibe... The eulogy given by her sister Vanessa Fowler at her funeral where she says "She was a devoted wife supporting Gerald in their partnership of marriage and she did so until the day she died" has made me think they could not have been separated or appeared to be unhappy...as someone who loved her so much surely her sister would not have mentioned him otherwise in this way publically...It is just so tragic especially for the little girls and for their sake I would like to think he is completely innocent as I feel many of us would...

clem1970 · #**1021** 05-12-2012, 07:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by minni

I seem to remember that quote not being on the Thursday for some reason.....I will go back and check as I am probably wrong!! they did attend sports day together...I remember that much, I just didnt think it was that day...maybe check the school to find out if there was a sports day on that day...any locals know?

Just found this - the school's cross country was held on 19 April.

http://www.brookfieldss.eq.edu.au/up...014%202012.pdf

minni · #**1022** 05-12-2012, 07:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by clem1970

Just found this - the school's cross country was held on 19 April.

http://www.brookfieldss.eq.edu.au/up...014%202012.pdf

thank you...and thanks Hillsdon...I must learn to post AFTER I catch up...not during

clem1970 · #**1023** 05-12-2012, 07:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hillsdon

Read my response 4 up.

Sorry Hillsdon, just saw your post. Yep, I don't remember it being confirmed either.

Keyboredom · #**1024** 05-12-2012, 07:30 AM

Hawkins, yours is the first post that's made me stray from what I thought was common sense.... it's very "eyes wide shut" but could explain a whole lot of weirdness. I don't think I'm fully onboard - but thanks for the idea. Damn you

itsthevibe · #**1025** 05-12-2012, 07:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hawkins

In Qld to be convicted of murder the Crown must show that the accused intended to inflict GBH or death to some person at the time of the killing. In the past many people have only been charged with manslaughter on the grounds that a single punch would not be likely to seriously injure or kill. Sometimes a person is shoved and they fall and suffer sub cranial injuries, without the accused having intended serious injury. Unless you have very precise evidence about how death occurred and about who did what to whom and when, it is very difficult to establish the requisite intention. Proving beyond reasonable doubt what a person's intention was at a given time requires very specific evidence. The defense of accident can also be available, as can diminished responsibility. Police need to be mindful of all these factors when investigating and interviewing.

These are helpful examples and I have no problem with the sort of examples like the single punch or the shove and fall onto cement etc. (although still unacceptable behaviour).

What i do have a problem with is people saying they think it was 'accidental' because it was not premeditated, as if there is nothing other than those two things. Also, i wasnt speaking legally, I am speaking morally to the issue of public attitudes towards domestic violence and domestic violence that escalates into killing. I wanted to highlight the numerous scenarios where there is the intention to kill, even if it arises quickly, and that there is a choice to not proceed and a consciousness that you are killing, and an effort to kill while wathcing the person die. Could be the heat of the moment, might get away with this in court, but I'm doing my bit to try to keep it real.

People need to take responsibility for their anger and the desire to eliminate who they perceive to be the source of their pain or their problems. The more we start losing sight of what is really going on it is a slippery slope to attitudes, public standards and ultimately laws or at least some judgements or verdicts becoming more lax, and IMO we are already on that slope way too far down.