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  #251  
Old 05-24-2012, 01:48 AM
Karmady Karmady is offline
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Originally Posted by elementary View Post
Or he had been crying in fear and this was indeed, a tear of distress left behind.
yes, if we <modsnip> and ignore the physiological likelihoods and the fact that it was raining. jmo

Last edited by Harmony2; 05-24-2012 at 08:26 AM. Reason: snipped snarky comment
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  #252  
Old 05-24-2012, 10:55 AM
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Or it was an actual raindrop.

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Or he had been crying in fear and this was indeed, a tear of distress left behind.
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  #253  
Old 05-24-2012, 11:04 AM
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I have never been shot, but I'd have to believe it hurts like hell...burns like hell and it could be quite possible he was starting to cry when his heart just stopped pumping blood..

It's an horrific last image of their healthy son to have to see him that way at all...if not for GZ....and it all goes back to him...

the more I read, the more I see folk taking his side as he was right in what he's done, I fear that bad behavior is well welcomed in a civilized society..being a survivor of homicide, I can tell you, you never stop missing your loved one, you never stop thinking what he would have become had he lived to fulfill his dreams...you never stop grieving....it seems there is no empathy anymore in this world as bad behavior is embraced...Ive walked in those shoes and still walk in them today and this all could have been avoided if GZ just stayed in his vehicle...but it appears <modsnip> can do no wrong..and that's the troubling part for me...I believe he should have been arrested at the crime scene and if he had, there'd be no split...
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Last edited by beach; 05-24-2012 at 02:06 PM. Reason: removed name calling
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  #254  
Old 05-24-2012, 11:12 AM
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Trayvon Martin Shooter Told Cops Teenager Went For His Gun
George Zimmerman, the neighborhood watch crime captain who shot dead 17-year-old Trayvon Martin, originally told police in a written statement that Martin knocked him down with a punch to the nose, repeatedly slammed his head on the ground and tried to take his gun, a police source told ABC News.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/trayvon-mar...ry?id=16000239

In the autopsy report, TM has no DNA on GZ's weapon or did TM have it on his hands...so, what does this say about GZ if not lies?

I certainly hope if a jury is seated (if MOM doesn't recommend a plea deal before that) that take everything into consideration and that goes for GZ's embellishments and lies...I wonder why CSerino asked for manslaughter charges and not given to him that night? He must have seen things that GZ stated didn't match the crime scene and the fact he didn't follow the order, to not follow...his following TM is what started the confrontation and it's GZ who ended it with one POP to TM chest <modsnip>
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Last edited by beach; 05-24-2012 at 02:04 PM. Reason: removed highly inflammatory remark.
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  #255  
Old 05-24-2012, 11:16 AM
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If Trayvon had his hand(s) over GZ's mouth and nose while GZ's nose was bleeding, wouldn't DNA be all over his hand(s) including at least one fingernail. And on his sleeve cuffs, too. That pic that was posted of GZ taken with the iPhone, too - wouldn't there be blood smeared all over GZ's face from twisting and turning underneath Trayvon's hand(s)?

JMO
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  #256  
Old 05-24-2012, 11:53 AM
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Originally Posted by diesel View Post
If Trayvon had his hand(s) over GZ's mouth and nose while GZ's nose was bleeding, wouldn't DNA be all over his hand(s) including at least one fingernail. And on his sleeve cuffs, too. That pic that was posted of GZ taken with the iPhone, too - wouldn't there be blood smeared all over GZ's face from twisting and turning underneath Trayvon's hand(s)?

JMO
BBM/U


Excellent question and in fact presents some of the logical questions one SHOULD ask to evaluate the second participant in the altercation, the one who can SPEAK on his own to tell "the story"!

DNA is transfered from one individual via celluar material, that's a fact....so in the above scenario, the opportunity to "pick up" GZ's DNA occurs via 1. saliva (epithelial cells within the oral cavity being shed), 2. blood (leukocytes (White blood cells) within the fluid, flowing blood stream), 3. nasal secretions (more phagocytic cells (white blood cells, differing type and the squamous and columnar (pseudostratified) epithelial cells of the nasal cavity being shed) and 4. skin ("good ole" epithelial cells, any layer or type). Any and all of the above cells contain nuclear components which has the DNA present.
BUT.....here's the "elephant in the room"......WAS the decedent's hands et al SECURELY protected from the elements of the night? Just the yellow tarp placed EVENTUALLY over him might NOT have been enough protection from the watery environment (rain falling, wet grass, puddles forming in depressions...etc.)
I also agree that unless the clothing worn by Trayvon was "Scotchguarded" or pushed up away from any contact, there should be some "wicking" of the bodily fluids of the other participant and/or "cast off" droplets as GZ struggled, turned, twisted, fought to get away & then fought to stand his ground.
All, JMO.

http://www.bio.davidson.edu/people/k...pithelium.html

http://www.bio.davidson.edu/people/k...pithelium.html

http://medical-dictionary.thefreedic...pithelial+cell

http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/DNA
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  #257  
Old 05-24-2012, 11:59 AM
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Originally Posted by LiveLaughLuv View Post
I have never been shot, but I'd have to believe it hurts like hell...burns like hell and it could be quite possible he was starting to cry when his heart just stopped pumping blood..

It's an horrific last image of their healthy son to have to see him that way at all...if not for GZ....and it all goes back to him...

the more I read, the more I see folk taking his side as he was right in what he's done, I fear that bad behavior is well welcomed in a civilized society..being a survivor of homicide, I can tell you, you never stop missing your loved one, you never stop thinking what he would have become had he lived to fulfill his dreams...you never stop grieving....it seems there is no empathy anymore in this world as bad behavior is embraced...Ive walked in those shoes and still walk in them today and this all could have been avoided if GZ just stayed in his vehicle...but it appears <modsnip> can do no wrong..and that's the troubling part for me...I believe he should have been arrested at the crime scene and if he had, there'd be no split...
ANd TM would be alive if he had just stayed in his HOME that night. What's that you say, he had a RIGHT to leave his home? Well, GZ had a RIGHT to leave his vehicle. And you can keep repeating that ALL DAY LONG, but the fact that GZ got out of his vehicle was NOT grounds for TM to attack him, and ALL the evidence points in that direction, IMO.

Last edited by beach; 05-24-2012 at 02:05 PM. Reason: removed namecalling from quoted post
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  #258  
Old 05-24-2012, 12:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joypath View Post
BBM/U


Excellent question and in fact presents some of the logical questions one SHOULD ask to evaluate the second participant in the altercation, the one who can SPEAK on his own to tell "the story"!

DNA is transfered from one individual via celluar material, that's a fact....so in the above scenario, the opportunity to "pick up" GZ's DNA occurs via 1. saliva (epithelial cells within the oral cavity being shed), 2. blood (leukocytes (White blood cells) within the fluid, flowing blood stream), 3. nasal secretions (more phagocytic cells (white blood cells, differing type and the squamous and columnar (pseudostratified) epithelial cells of the nasal cavity being shed) and 4. skin ("good ole" epithelial cells, any layer or type). Any and all of the above cells contain nuclear components which has the DNA present.
BUT.....here's the "elephant in the room"......WAS the decedent's hands et al SECURELY protected from the elements of the night? Just the yellow tarp placed EVENTUALLY over him might NOT have been enough protection from the watery environment (rain falling, wet grass, puddles forming in depressions...etc.)
I also agree that unless the clothing worn by Trayvon was "Scotchguarded" or pushed up away from any contact, there should be some "wicking" of the bodily fluids of the other participant and/or "cast off" droplets as GZ struggled, turned, twisted, fought to get away & then fought to stand his ground.
All, JMO.

http://www.bio.davidson.edu/people/k...pithelium.html

http://www.bio.davidson.edu/people/k...pithelium.html

http://medical-dictionary.thefreedic...pithelial+cell

http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/DNA
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  #259  
Old 05-24-2012, 01:25 PM
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Originally Posted by zenreaper View Post
ANd TM would be alive if he had just stayed in his HOME that night. What's that you say, he had a RIGHT to leave his home? Well, GZ had a RIGHT to leave his vehicle. And you can keep repeating that ALL DAY LONG, but the fact that GZ got out of his vehicle was NOT grounds for TM to attack him, and ALL the evidence points in that direction, IMO.
Zen, you taking the words of a liar, there was nothing to show that TM attacked him at all...everything is pointing to GZ and GZ alone..

The state will drive that fact home, had he not left the security of his vehicle, TM would be alive today...that is the first premise the state took into consideration...he never should have left his vehicle as told to not follow...why is everyone not taking that into consideration....everything the state has written the first sentence is, TM death could have been avoided if GZ stayed in his vehicle..

So, you can drive the fact home that it was TM who started this, yet the DNA evidence states otherwise...NO DNA of GZ on TM's hands...so he must have been quite the magician to beat him to a bloody pulp and not get his DNA onto GZ...and this alleged struggle over the gun, no DNA of TM there either..Hmmmmmm GZ is a liar, is my belief.

It's looking more and more like it was GZ who started the entire scenario...
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  #260  
Old 05-24-2012, 01:28 PM
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Originally Posted by LiveLaughLuv View Post
Zen, you taking the words of a liar, there was nothing to show that TM attacked him at all...everything is pointing to GZ and GZ alone..

The state will drive that fact home, had he not left the security of his vehicle, TM would be alive today...that is the first premise the state took into consideration...he never should have left his vehicle as told to not follow...why is everyone not taking that into consideration....everything the state has written the first sentence is, TM death could have been avoided if GZ stayed in his vehicle..

So, you can drive the fact home that it was TM who started this, yet the DNA evidence states otherwise...NO DNA of GZ on TM's hands...so he must have been quite the magician to beat him to a bloody pulp and not get his DNA onto GZ...and this alleged struggle over the gun, no DNA of TM there either..Hmmmmmm GZ is a liar, is my belief.

It's looking more and more like it was GZ who started the entire scenario...
BBM

You cannot convict the man of 2nd degree murder simply because he got out of his car. I don't understand how any jury is going to convict primarily based off the fact he got out of his car.

Once you get beyond the 'getting out of the car', what other evidence is there that shows that GZ started or instigated the confrontation. Saying 'getting out of his car' is a reason for the confrontation makes no sense to me and IMO there is no way that is going to hold up in a courtroom as the reason TM is dead.
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  #261  
Old 05-24-2012, 01:31 PM
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Originally Posted by zenreaper View Post
ANd TM would be alive if he had just stayed in his HOME that night. What's that you say, he had a RIGHT to leave his home? Well, GZ had a RIGHT to leave his vehicle. And you can keep repeating that ALL DAY LONG, but the fact that GZ got out of his vehicle was NOT grounds for TM to attack him, and ALL the evidence points in that direction, IMO.
BBM

No to me it doesn't. I don't know if or when I will hear the reason Trayvon felt the need to fight off GZ. Simply put, Was Trayvon just the kind of kid to fight off someone for no reason or did something happen he felt the need. Something is missing.

JMO
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  #262  
Old 05-24-2012, 01:42 PM
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Originally Posted by cityslick View Post
BBM

You cannot convict the man of 2nd degree murder simply because he got out of his car. I don't understand how any jury is going to convict primarily based off the fact he got out of his car.

Once you get beyond the 'getting out of the car', what other evidence is there that shows that GZ started or instigated the confrontation. Saying 'getting out of his car' is a reason for the confrontation makes no sense to me and IMO there is no way that is going to hold up in a courtroom as the reason TM is dead.
Well we'll have to see how the state takes this at trial...

Quote:
New George Zimmerman documents:

Police call shooting 'avoidable'The documents include the original report by Christopher Serino, the investigator who investigated the shooting. The report said the entire incident, from Zimmerman's initial call to when he was taken into custody, only took about eight and a half minutes.

Among the witness statements is one from a man who said he saw a dark-skinned man in a hoodie who was on top of a Hispanic man and punching him. The man yelled that he was going to call the police, and then he heard a "pop." However, the man admitted that he did not see the beginning of the scuffle. Another witness said he heard someone say "I've got a gun, I've got a gun," and "take my gun from me."


Serino concluded, however, that there was enough evidence to charge Zimmerman was manslaughter.


One of the Sanford police reports concluded the whole incident was avoidable had Zimmerman stayed in his car and waited for law enforcement.

snipped........


Meanwhile, DNA forensics of the gun used that night show that Zimmerman's DNA is on the firearm, except for the trigger.

According to the report, another individual's DNA was on the gun, but experts could not identify whose it is.

Zimmerman claimed Martin reached for the gun and that's when he fired.

But there are different descriptions of the gunshot wound to Martin. The Volusia County Medical Examiner said the shot was at a "intermediate range."

However, the FDLE report notes residue from the gun is consistent with a "contact shot
http://cfnews13.com/content/news/cfn...iscovery_.html


So, anyone can take the words of a liar,evidence doesn't lie... but I believe the state and the state knows GZ could have avoided this entire scenario had he stayed in his vehicle and let LE handle it..but we now understand what GZ thinks of SPD and was adamant and determined to not let another a&&hole get away...GZ's own words will get him convicted...
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  #263  
Old 05-24-2012, 01:50 PM
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Originally Posted by LiveLaughLuv View Post
Well we'll have to see how the state takes this at trial...

http://cfnews13.com/content/news/cfn...iscovery_.html


So, anyone can take the words of a liar,evidence doesn't lie... but I believe the state and the state knows GZ could have avoided this entire scenario had he stayed in his vehicle and let LE handle it..but we now understand what GZ thinks of SPD and was adamant and determined to not let another a&&hole get away...GZ's own words will get him convicted...
That's an ambiguous statement though. Yes he could of avoided the scenario but that doesn't mean he's the ultimate cause of the confrontation. He could of avoided the situation if there was evidence that showed that TM did in fact jump him, beat him, etc. Doesn't make him guilty of murder in that scenario though.

How is that any different from saying a woman could of avoided being robbed/raped if she didn't walk down that dark alley all by herself?
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  #264  
Old 05-24-2012, 01:58 PM
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That's an ambiguous statement though. Yes he could of avoided the scenario but that doesn't mean he's the ultimate cause of the confrontation. He could of avoided the situation if there was evidence that showed that TM did in fact jump him, beat him, etc. Doesn't make him guilty of murder in that scenario though.

How is that any different from saying a woman could of avoided being robbed/raped if she didn't walk down that dark alley all by herself?
bbm

A smart woman wouldn't.
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Old 05-24-2012, 02:03 PM
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Actually Inv. Serino made a statement that Zimmerman told him that Zimmerman confronted Trayvon. I have pointed this out before and even linked to the exact page and I pasted the exact phrasing of this before. Serino did not pull this out of his hat or his arse. Even though the vast majority of Zimmerman's statements to SPD that night were redacted there was one nugget of info in the autopsy report of Trayvon.

Pg 138 of 183
Medical Examiner Case Report
Case Summary:
ECC contacted Fl Malphurs of an apparent death in Sanford in the courtyard behind 2861 Retreat View Circle. Person of contact (POC) was SPD Inv. Serino. POC advised of an unknown B/M who had been shot by a resident of the complex. POC stated the following:

At approximately 1910 hours on 02/26/2012, 911 dispatchers received a call from a resident of the complex. That resident advised of a B/M who was at the complex between the townhomes. The caller stated that the male should not have been in the area and he observed the male while walking his neighborhood watch. Shortly after the call the resident confronted the male and the two began to physically fight. Witnesses observed the two fighting in the yard and then the resident fired a handgun at the male striking him in the chest. The male fell to the ground. SPD and SFD arrived on scene. The male was pronounced dead at 1930 hours. The identity of the male was unknown.

Link for the above:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/93951121/S...-by-prosecutor


So, does this mean that Zimmerman was lying then or now? And since Zimmerman himself claimed to have confronted Trayvon can we now conclude that he did in fact instigate the confrontation?

MOO
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Old 05-24-2012, 02:11 PM
cityslick cityslick is offline
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bbm

A smart woman wouldn't.
The guy would still be guilty of robbing/raping her though.
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  #267  
Old 05-24-2012, 02:16 PM
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The guy would still be guilty of robbing/raping her though.
Nope......if she never walked down that alley to start with, there would not have ever been a rape. Using common sense will keep peeps out of a lot of trouble.
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Old 05-24-2012, 02:19 PM
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Actually Inv. Serino made a statement that Zimmerman told him that Zimmerman confronted Trayvon. I have pointed this out before and even linked to the exact page and I pasted the exact phrasing of this before. Serino did not pull this out of his hat or his arse. Even though the vast majority of Zimmerman's statements to SPD that night were redacted there was one nugget of info in the autopsy report of Trayvon.

Pg 138 of 183
Medical Examiner Case Report
Case Summary:
ECC contacted Fl Malphurs of an apparent death in Sanford in the courtyard behind 2861 Retreat View Circle. Person of contact (POC) was SPD Inv. Serino. POC advised of an unknown B/M who had been shot by a resident of the complex. POC stated the following:

At approximately 1910 hours on 02/26/2012, 911 dispatchers received a call from a resident of the complex. That resident advised of a B/M who was at the complex between the townhomes. The caller stated that the male should not have been in the area and he observed the male while walking his neighborhood watch. Shortly after the call the resident confronted the male and the two began to physically fight. Witnesses observed the two fighting in the yard and then the resident fired a handgun at the male striking him in the chest. The male fell to the ground. SPD and SFD arrived on scene. The male was pronounced dead at 1930 hours. The identity of the male was unknown.

Link for the above:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/93951121/S...-by-prosecutor


So, does this mean that Zimmerman was lying then or now? And since Zimmerman himself claimed to have confronted Trayvon can we now conclude that he did in fact instigate the confrontation?

MOO
You understand that report was what was initially told to the ME's office when they arrived at the scene? At that point, Serino (nor anyone else) had not even interrogated GZ yet on what his story was. Serino was probably getting his information from both dispatch and the officer on the scene.
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Old 05-24-2012, 02:20 PM
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Nope......if she never walked down that alley to start with, there would not have ever been a rape. Using common sense will keep peeps out of a lot of trouble.
So in other words, if it does in fact happen, you don't bother to prosecute the perp in that instance?

In this case, it did happen, he did get out of his car. Does that make him guilty of murder, because he got out of his car? I don't think so.
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  #270  
Old 05-24-2012, 02:23 PM
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That's an ambiguous statement though. Yes he could of avoided the scenario but that doesn't mean he's the ultimate cause of the confrontation. He could of avoided the situation if there was evidence that showed that TM did in fact jump him, beat him, etc. Doesn't make him guilty of murder in that scenario though.

How is that any different from saying a woman could of avoided being robbed/raped if she didn't walk down that dark alley all by herself?
rape and manslaughter/murder are not the same crime. Both are heinous. But your analogy only makes sense if you pose the question thus: how is that different from saying a woman could have avoided killing her potential rapist if only she hadn't followed him down that dark alley?

Otherwise it is apples and oranges. both are fruit, both are round, that is about the end of the similarities.

moo
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Old 05-24-2012, 02:28 PM
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Originally Posted by cityslick View Post
So in other words, if it does in fact happen, you don't bother to prosecute the perp in that instance?

In this case, it did happen, he did get out of his car. Does that make him guilty of murder, because he got out of his car? I don't think so.
The act of getting out of his car does not make him guilty of murder on its own. There are other factors that added to that act that make him guilty of murder.

Unfortunately for Zimmerman he neglected to do what he had been advised by not only the non-emergancy dispatcher but also by the official that was in charge of the Neighborhood Watch Volunteer training class.

This is not a case of one simple act being the reason behind the charges. There are (apparently) numerous things added up that resulted in his arrest. Zimmerman admitted to starting or instigating the confrontation. Zimmerman shot and killed Trayvon. Zimmerman has (apparently) not been truthful in his version of events that occured that night. Zimmerman's account of events do not (apparently) match up to the evidence of what occured that night.

Now, as some have pointed out, all of this could have very easily been avoided had Zimmerman simply waited in his car for SPD to arrive and allow them to handle Trayvon. Zimmerman getting out of his car was simply the first step in the list of things that got the ball rolling.

MOO
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  #272  
Old 05-24-2012, 02:28 PM
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So in other words, if it does in fact happen, you don't bother to prosecute the perp in that instance?

In this case, it did happen, he did get out of his car. Does that make him guilty of murder, because he got out of his car? I don't think so.

Aww city look........we are OT. It can't happen if she didn't put herself in that position. She didn't walk down the dark alley so no crime was commited. There is no perp to prosecute. GZ had called LE, when he CHOSE to get out of his car, he started the ball rolling. People need to take responsibility for the dumb chit they do.
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Old 05-24-2012, 02:30 PM
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Aww city look........we are OT. It can't happen if she didn't put herself in that position. She didn't walk down the dark alley so no crime was commited. There is no perp to prosecute. GZ had called LE, when he CHOSE to get out of his car, he started the ball rolling. People need to take responsibility for the dumb chit they do.
You're right. That's why this was always a possible manslaughter case, not a 2nd degree murder case.
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  #274  
Old 05-24-2012, 02:31 PM
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gxm gxm is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TorisMom003 View Post
Actually Inv. Serino made a statement that Zimmerman told him that Zimmerman confronted Trayvon. I have pointed this out before and even linked to the exact page and I pasted the exact phrasing of this before. Serino did not pull this out of his hat or his arse. Even though the vast majority of Zimmerman's statements to SPD that night were redacted there was one nugget of info in the autopsy report of Trayvon.

Pg 138 of 183
Medical Examiner Case Report
Case Summary:
ECC contacted Fl Malphurs of an apparent death in Sanford in the courtyard behind 2861 Retreat View Circle. Person of contact (POC) was SPD Inv. Serino. POC advised of an unknown B/M who had been shot by a resident of the complex. POC stated the following:

At approximately 1910 hours on 02/26/2012, 911 dispatchers received a call from a resident of the complex. That resident advised of a B/M who was at the complex between the townhomes. The caller stated that the male should not have been in the area and he observed the male while walking his neighborhood watch. Shortly after the call the resident confronted the male and the two began to physically fight. Witnesses observed the two fighting in the yard and then the resident fired a handgun at the male striking him in the chest. The male fell to the ground. SPD and SFD arrived on scene. The male was pronounced dead at 1930 hours. The identity of the male was unknown.

Link for the above:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/93951121/S...-by-prosecutor


So, does this mean that Zimmerman was lying then or now? And since Zimmerman himself claimed to have confronted Trayvon can we now conclude that he did in fact instigate the confrontation?

MOO

As far as has been reported, GZ was not "walking his neighborhood watch" either. And since we don't have GZ's statement(s) to check against, we'll have to wait till they come out to know whether this is departmental miscommunication or if GZ really said he was walking his neighborhood watch and that he confronted TM.

JMO, OMO, and MOO
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  #275  
Old 05-24-2012, 02:33 PM
cityslick cityslick is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TorisMom003 View Post
The act of getting out of his car does not make him guilty of murder on its own. There are other factors that added to that act that make him guilty of murder.

Unfortunately for Zimmerman he neglected to do what he had been advised by not only the non-emergancy dispatcher but also by the official that was in charge of the Neighborhood Watch Volunteer training class.

This is not a case of one simple act being the reason behind the charges. There are (apparently) numerous things added up that resulted in his arrest. Zimmerman admitted to starting or instigating the confrontation. Zimmerman shot and killed Trayvon. Zimmerman has (apparently) not been truthful in his version of events that occured that night. Zimmerman's account of events do not (apparently) match up to the evidence of what occured that night.

Now, as some have pointed out, all of this could have very easily been avoided had Zimmerman simply waited in his car for SPD to arrive and allow them to handle Trayvon. Zimmerman getting out of his car was simply the first step in the list of things that got the ball rolling.

MOO
BBM

That is not a fact until I see that GZ did in fact say that to investigators. Taking a sentence from an ME's report that was given to him as 2nd (3rd?) hand information when GZ wasn't even interrogated at that point isn't proof he confronted TM.
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