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  #51  
Old 05-20-2012, 09:35 PM
saguaro saguaro is offline
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Originally Posted by K_Z View Post
Boy-- I wonder who interpreted THAT for CBS? I predict a retraction will be in order. Talk about getting it wrong! Did they even look at the narrative AR?

That's not just an error or embarrassing-- it's inflammatory, IMO.
Perhaps the fired NBC producers got jobs at CBS?
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  #52  
Old 05-20-2012, 09:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Sensei View Post
Based on what we know from the autopsey report, it appears highly unlikely that Trayvon was shot while sitting astraddle GZ and attempting to bang his head since the gunshot was directly front to back at intermediate range....
so please explain how a shot went directly straight through from front to back, not in an upward trajectory, and how GZ managed to get enough separation from TM that the shot was from intermediate range, how did he get even 2 to 4 inches of separation from the gun to Travon, let alone 5 or 6 to 10 inches.... this is what I would like to know....do you think maybe he held the gun up in the air to get a straight through shot during the struggle?

I don't think Trayvon was shot while sitting on GZ, not from that information. IMO JMHO and stuff.
It does seem improbable based on the MEs report.

From pg 127:



Notice the entry point and it's relation to an approximate center line of arms extended? It's about where you could expect the entry of an intermediate range, direct pass thru shot from a face to face shooter's extended arm who was 3" shorter than the victim.

From pg 131 of the ME's report:



Using the same center line reference point, a direct pass thru shot from a shooter underneath the victim seems improbable without some degree of an upward angular path of the bullet.

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  #53  
Old 05-20-2012, 11:28 PM
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An additional comment as I've pondered the autopsy. The weight of the heart documented "seemed" small to me, given his adult size-- even owing to the fact that there was a great deal of damage to the right ventricle. That number has been bugging me. I wanted to put it in perspective. So I looked up typical adult normal heart weights at autopsy, on several sites. This is a good one:

http://www.pathology.med.ohio-state....ts/autopsy.asp
Heart:
Males: 270 - 280 grams
Females: 250 - 280 grams

Trayvon's heart weight was 200 grams at autopsy. Doing a little math, approximately 25% of his entire heart muscle is missing-- destroyed by the GSW. Sadly, that really puts the damage into perspective, I think.

One fourth of his entire heart was simply...... "missing."
  #54  
Old 05-21-2012, 12:14 AM
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Papa, would the following factors make a difference? The length of each person's torso (not just their height); the arm-length of the person on bottom; how far forward or back the person on top is sitting; and the degree of forward lean of the person on top. Thanks so much for all your hard work!
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Old 05-21-2012, 09:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Reader View Post
I had posted this on another thread earlier in a response to Concerned Papa:

Now that we have the ME's report that the shot was straight into the chest, I see I was wrong in thinking it could have been from L to R to do all that damage. But I am wondering if all this damage to the heart and lungs could be because of the use of the hollow point bullet. Don't they shatter and cause more damage to the body? The ME found fragments. Could that be what caused such damage to Trayvon?
I heard media say his left ventricle was shredded due to the hollow point bullet..that means to me, TM did not utter those silly words GZ claims...You got me? No...I don't believe that happened..I also heard them say, the bullet stayed in his chest, there was not exit wound...also heard he was inches from TM when he shot that gun...poor TM...his death would have been avoided had GZ stayed in his vehicle...
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  #56  
Old 05-21-2012, 09:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Sherbie View Post
Papa, would the following factors make a difference? The length of each person's torso (not just their height); the arm-length of the person on bottom; how far forward or back the person on top is sitting; and the degree of forward lean of the person on top. Thanks so much for all your hard work!
You make some good points Sherbie. How do we know the angle of the gun when fired? During the struggle it could have been pointed in almost any direction. JMO.
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  #57  
Old 05-21-2012, 09:17 AM
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Originally Posted by LiveLaughLuv View Post
I heard media say his left ventricle was shredded due to the hollow point bullet..that means to me, TM did not utter those silly words GZ claims...You got me? No...I don't believe that happened..I also heard them say, the bullet stayed in his chest, there was not exit wound...also heard he was inches from TM when he shot that gun...poor TM...his death would have been avoided had GZ stayed in his vehicle...
The bullet shattered, hollow point, and I'm guessing that is why there is no exit wound. Both lungs collapsed. No way he could have formed a sentence, much less a flippant remark such as you got me. jmo
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Old 05-21-2012, 09:25 AM
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You make some good points Sherbie. How do we know the angle of the gun when fired? During the struggle it could have been pointed in almost any direction. JMO.
Because the path was straight as if fired from a standing position, not in the position of lying on your back and firing at someone who is sitting on you. Lying on the ground (as GZ claims) the bullet would have had an upward path. In order for a straight path, IMO, wouldn't GZ's arm have to be level while pointing at TM's chest? TM's heart exploded so he dropped wherever he was and when turned over his hands were placed one inside the other so no one slid out from under this body apparently. The body can't lie. It is what it is. SA already knows what happened regarding the shooting of TM and that is why there are charges. Gilbreath admitted he did not know how it started but you can bet your bippy they know how it ended and TM did not have to die. jmo
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Old 05-21-2012, 09:35 AM
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Originally Posted by LambChop View Post
Because the path was straight as if fired from a standing position, not in the position of lying on your back and firing at someone who is sitting on you. Lying on the ground (as GZ claims) the bullet would have had an upward path. In order for a straight path, IMO, wouldn't GZ's arm have to be level while pointing at TM's chest? TM's heart exploded so he dropped wherever he was and when turned over his hands were placed one inside the other so no one slid out from under this body apparently. The body can't lie. It is what it is. SA already knows what happened regarding the shooting of TM and that is why there are charges. Gilbreath admitted he did not know how it started but you can bet your bippy they know how it ended and TM did not have to die. jmo
Yes the shot went straight in Trayvons body. But what was the position of his body and what was the angle of the gun when fired? I can swivel my hand alone quite a bit by just moving my wrist.
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  #60  
Old 05-21-2012, 09:45 AM
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Originally Posted by RANCH View Post
Yes the shot went straight in Trayvons body. But what was the position of his body and what was the angle of the gun when fired? I can swivel my hand alone quite a bit by just moving my wrist.
I think what some posters are trying to tell us is that the wound does not match GZ's story. No matter what he could have done with his wrist. TM did not sit up after he was shot, turn and then fall face forward onto the ground stretched out full length as he was found, from a sitting position. His heart exploded and he dropped right where he was at that point. jmo
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Old 05-21-2012, 09:52 AM
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Originally Posted by LambChop View Post
I think what some posters are trying to tell us is that the wound does not match GZ's story. No matter what he could have done with his wrist. TM did not sit up after he was shot, turn and then fall face forward onto the ground stretched out full length as he was found, from a sitting position. His heart exploded and he dropped right where he was at that point. jmo
Unless these posters tell me that they have experience in forensics and bullet trajectories I don't really care "what they are trying to tell us."
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Old 05-21-2012, 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by LambChop View Post
I think what some posters are trying to tell us is that the wound does not match GZ's story. No matter what he could have done with his wrist. TM did not sit up after he was shot, turn and then fall face forward onto the ground stretched out full length as he was found, from a sitting position. His heart exploded and he dropped right where he was at that point. jmo
I'm not seeing that from the evidence. Sitting? Or do you mean straddling? If Trayvon was straddling GZ I could see him falling face down as he was found. JMO.
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Old 05-21-2012, 09:55 AM
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Originally Posted by LambChop View Post
I think what some posters are trying to tell us is that the wound does not match GZ's story. No matter what he could have done with his wrist. TM did not sit up after he was shot, turn and then fall face forward onto the ground stretched out full length as he was found, from a sitting position. His heart exploded and he dropped right where he was at that point. jmo
What if TM was leaning over GZ already as the shot rang out?

Someone needs to put two people with the exact same heights and then have the one that was GZ's height point outward to see where a gun would come to on TM's body.

Multiple witnesses report seeing two people on the ground before the shot rang out.
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  #64  
Old 05-21-2012, 09:59 AM
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Unless these posters tell me that they have experience in forensics and bullet trajectories I don't really care "what they are trying to tell us."
They're in the medical field. They would have some knowledge. It's not hard to figure out from diagrams also. Too much is wrong with the lying on my back with TM beating my face and I shot him to be believable given the trajectory of the bullet, the fact that TM died instantly and how TM's body ended up stretched out and face down in the grass. I can't imagine how it could have happened the way he said it did when you take into account what we now know from the reports. jmo
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  #65  
Old 05-21-2012, 10:02 AM
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Originally Posted by LambChop View Post
I think what some posters are trying to tell us is that the wound does not match GZ's story. No matter what he could have done with his wrist. TM did not sit up after he was shot, turn and then fall face forward onto the ground stretched out full length as he was found, from a sitting position. His heart exploded and he dropped right where he was at that point. jmo
Correct, his story doesn't match the evidence as Investigator Gilbreath stated at the bond hearing, now we are seeing the reason...TM died where he was shot...at close range and it removes the doubt that GZ was going back to his vehicle, he should have not left the security of his vehicle if he was that 'frightened' of TM, a lone teen walking...GZ is one paranoid dude who will now have to answer for his actions for once in his life....for it appears he and his family think it's always someone elses fault GZ gets into violent confrontations...we shall see...
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  #66  
Old 05-21-2012, 10:05 AM
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What if TM was leaning over GZ already as the shot rang out?

Someone needs to put two people with the exact same heights and then have the one that was GZ's height point outward to see where a gun would come to on TM's body.

Multiple witnesses report seeing two people on the ground before the shot rang out.
I believe the state will....they will show the evidence as they see it...Thankful for the SP and the team of prosecutors getting to the heart (no pun intended) of the actions of GZ...it's very relevant for GZ instigated this entire scenario by not backing off....
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  #67  
Old 05-21-2012, 10:07 AM
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They're in the medical field. They would have some knowledge. It's not hard to figure out from diagrams also. Too much is wrong with the lying on my back with TM beating my face and I shot him to be believable given the trajectory of the bullet, the fact that TM died instantly and how TM's body ended up stretched out and face down in the grass. I can't imagine how it could have happened the way he said it did when you take into account what we now know from the reports. jmo
Well just because you can't imagine how it happened doesn't mean it didn't happen. First of all one guy sitting perpendicularly on top of the other is not the only orientation one guy can be sitting on top of the other. Person on top could be leaning. So it's misleading to have a photo of one guy sitting perpendicularly on top of the other and then claim the trajectory doesn't make sense since you don't know what was the orientation of two people at the time of shot.
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Old 05-21-2012, 10:12 AM
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Originally Posted by cityslick View Post
What if TM was leaning over GZ already as the shot rang out?

Someone needs to put two people with the exact same heights and then have the one that was GZ's height point outward to see where a gun would come to on TM's body.

Multiple witnesses report seeing two people on the ground before the shot rang out.
How many seconds went by from the time the last person saw them on the ground? How many seconds does it take to start to get up? One witness said it was seconds, literally seconds after GZ shot TM that an officer showed up. Did LE arrive with full lights and sirens? GZ had to have seen them coming if they did. Flashing lights and sirens can be seen and heard from a long distance off. Why would he shoot??? Why?

I would think SA has already had an expert do a run through about what happened. They have all the information they need to reconstruct the crime, they have a video of GZ doing an reenactment. How could SA not know what happened at the exact time of the shooting? Obviously SA feels there is enough reason to disbelieve GZ's story because they've charged him with 2nd degree and not manslaughter. jmo
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Old 05-21-2012, 10:17 AM
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How many seconds went by from the time the last person saw them on the ground? How many seconds does it take to start to get up? One witness said it was seconds, literally seconds after GZ shot TM that an officer showed up. Did LE arrive with full lights and sirens? GZ had to have seen them coming if they did. Flashing lights and sirens can be seen and heard from a long distance off. Why would he shoot??? Why?

I would think SA has already had an expert do a run through about what happened. They have all the information they need to reconstruct the crime, they have a video of GZ doing an reenactment. How could SA not know what happened at the exact time of the shooting? Obviously SA feels there is enough reason to disbelieve GZ's story because they've charged him with 2nd degree and not manslaughter. jmo
Using that logic, the only outcome of every trial would be "GUILTY."
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Old 05-21-2012, 10:17 AM
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Well just because you can't imagine how it happened doesn't mean it didn't happen. First of all one guy sitting perpendicularly on top of the other is not the only orientation one guy can be sitting on top of the other. Person on top could be leaning. So it's misleading to have a photo of one guy sitting perpendicularly on top of the other and then claim the trajectory doesn't make sense since you don't know what was the orientation of two people at the time of shot.
A sitting position does not explain how TM landed stretched out, face down in the grass with his hands together underneath him. It's as if he dropped right where he was standing or kneeling. His arms and hands indicate he fell directly onto the grass undisturbed. Somehow the pieces just do not fit when you look at the whole picture. I'm sorry but they don't. jmo
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Old 05-21-2012, 10:24 AM
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Using that logic, the only outcome of every trial would be "GUILTY."
If the person is guilty that would be true. SA can only go by the evidence they have put together in order to charge someone with a crime. If GZ story were solid he would not be going to trial. We don't have his full statements yet and we can see holes just from what we know up to this point. jmo
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Old 05-21-2012, 10:26 AM
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We now know that TM was 71 inches tall (5' 9") and weighed 158 pounds = average height and skinny

We also know that GZ wore a size 38 pants and an XL jacket = heavy guy or as the one witness referred to him the "Bulky Built Guy."
Thanks, JustK,
GZ has a sturdy build as evidenced in the police station video. His weight is listed as 200 lbs and height is 5'7".

http://www.scribd.com/fullscreen/939...fw4p9qoeni6hod

I just can't imagine Trayvon allegedly pinning GZ to the ground for any significant length of time. Even tho Trayvon was 2" taller than GZ, IMO Trayvon was at a disadvantage because GZ outweighed him by 42 lbs. (and was packing)

The thing that's bugging me is that Mr. wm is about the same size as GZ and mr. is STRONG as an OX. I can't envision a skinny 17 year old kid who is two inches taller getting the best of Mr.wm.

MOO

wm
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Old 05-21-2012, 10:47 AM
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Thanks, JustK,
GZ has a sturdy build as evidenced in the police station video. His weight is listed as 200 lbs and height is 5'7".

http://www.scribd.com/fullscreen/939...fw4p9qoeni6hod

I just can't imagine Trayvon allegedly pinning GZ to the ground for any significant length of time. Even tho Trayvon was 2" taller than GZ, IMO Trayvon was at a disadvantage because GZ outweighed him by 42 lbs. (and was packing)

The thing that's bugging me is that Mr. wm is about the same size as GZ and mr. is STRONG as an OX. I can't envision a skinny 17 year old kid who is two inches taller getting the best of Mr.wm.

MOO

wm
71 inches is 5' 11" not 5' 9". Who is strong as an ox and how do you know that?
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Old 05-21-2012, 11:00 AM
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I believe the state will....they will show the evidence as they see it...Thankful for the SP and the team of prosecutors getting to the heart (no pun intended) of the actions of GZ...it's very relevant for GZ instigated this entire scenario by not backing off....
They can't prove who instigated it. Gilbreath said this during the bond hearing.
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Old 05-21-2012, 11:02 AM
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How many seconds went by from the time the last person saw them on the ground? How many seconds does it take to start to get up? One witness said it was seconds, literally seconds after GZ shot TM that an officer showed up. Did LE arrive with full lights and sirens? GZ had to have seen them coming if they did. Flashing lights and sirens can be seen and heard from a long distance off. Why would he shoot??? Why?

I would think SA has already had an expert do a run through about what happened. They have all the information they need to reconstruct the crime, they have a video of GZ doing an reenactment. How could SA not know what happened at the exact time of the shooting? Obviously SA feels there is enough reason to disbelieve GZ's story because they've charged him with 2nd degree and not manslaughter. jmo
BBM

And once again, not everyone who is facing a charge is guilty of said charge, nor does that mean there is enough evidence to fulfill that charge in the eyes of a jury.

Do you think he was on the ground, then got up and shot him while TM was on the ground? That would even be more unlikely for a straight shot.
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