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  #151  
Old 05-22-2012, 01:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Cappuccino View Post
That wasn't an answer, it was a PC dodge. I'd still like an answer if you want to try?

How would you feel about a muslim teacher who posts on fb that apostasy from Islam is morally equivalent to murder? How would you feel if you knew that there was a muslim student in his class who was contemplating apostasy?

I'm not asking you what you think his constitutional rights should be, or what the state should do, or what his employers should do. I'm asking how you PERSONALLY would feel about his position as an authority figure in an environment where one or more of his muslim students might be wrestling with their faith.
You not liking the answer is not my problem.
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  #152  
Old 05-22-2012, 01:09 AM
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And what is that opinion? How would you ensure that a gay/doubting muslim student in the classroom is not being discriminated against by the teacher's views?
Would you care that a fundamentalist Christian is not discriminated against by an outspoken gay marriage activist who is also the civics teacher?

Do you really think that discrimination only happens on one side of the isle? That bullying only happens on one side of the isle?

Guess what, the real world means not everyone likes you or appreciates every stand you make - no matter where your political, religious, or any other compass points. Disagreement with someone does not have to include bullying - it'd be good if a couple on the pro-marriage side on this thread could understand that.
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  #153  
Old 05-22-2012, 01:24 AM
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Ah, but that rarely happens. More often, different denominations have instead built up their own dogma/organization that begins to eclipse God and His word. When we believe in the Bible in its totality as God's inspired word and don't cherry pick, when we study His word and know it, not bits, but the whole beautiful story, it's far more clear, IMO.

God doesn't condemn us. Our sin does. He saves, out of mercy, compassion, and love.

John 3:17
But it's NOT rare! Otherwise there wouldn't be countless Protestant denominations in the first place (and I single out the Protestants only because they uniquely go bible-only for ultimate authority, as opposed to capital-T tradition, which predates the bible; i have a different and separate problem with the catholic and orthodox churches on this issue lol) who have split and split and split due to different interpretations of different parts of the bible.

So what then? Whose interpretation ultimately prevails? Your interpretation that the bible says homosexuality is a sin akin to murder? Or the liberal Christian's interpretation that the bible says it is not homosexuality that is the sin, but sexual relations that are against one' own nature?

It is an argument that belongs nowhere near our kids In the public schools. This teach made a public declaration, "in front" of students, about his belief that homosexuals are on par with murderers. How then can any parent trust that teacher to treat homosexual students fairly, or to trust that he will field any question regarding, say, gay history, civil rights (he is after all a social studies teacher), etc, impartially?

Let the theologians argue about angels on the head of a pin. Not the public school teachers.
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  #154  
Old 05-22-2012, 01:30 AM
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But it's NOT rare! Otherwise there wouldn't be countless Protestant denominations in the first place (and I single out the Protestants only because they uniquely go bible-only for ultimate authority, as opposed to capital-T tradition, which predates the bible; i have a different and separate problem with the catholic and orthodox churches on this issue lol) who have split and split and split due to different interpretations of different parts of the bible.

So what then? Whose interpretation ultimately prevails? Your interpretation that the bible says homosexuality is a sin akin to murder? Or the liberal Christian's interpretation that the bible says it is not homosexuality that is the sin, but sexual relations that are against one' own nature?

It is an argument that belongs nowhere near our kids In the public schools. This teach made a public declaration, "in front" of students, about his belief that homosexuals are on par with murderers. How then can any parent trust that teacher to treat homosexual students fairly, or to trust that he will field any question regarding, say, gay history, civil rights (he is after all a social studies teacher), etc, impartially?

Let the theologians argue about angels on the head of a pin. Not the public school teachers.
Teachers make public statements all the time - this is only offensive to some because it's based on the Bible.
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  #155  
Old 05-22-2012, 07:14 AM
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But then we get into things that you are morally opposed to but others poly marriage folks, younger age of consent folks, etc, might not have the same moral opposition to. So a line has to be drawn somewhere. Some people find that the one man, one woman line is fine. It doesn't mean they hate same sex relationships, they just don't see it fitting the definition of marriage.

Interesting because the Roman Empire had many classes, not just agricultural classes - and it was during this time that women were actually the merchants, no longer was it delegated to men only in the stalls selling wares.
As I'm sure you know, despite a relatively small merchant class, the Roman Empire existed hundreds of years before the Industrial Revolution to which I referred.

I don't have a problem with drawing moral lines. I have a problem with drawing lines arbitrarily to suit your prejudices and then insisting I toe them.
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  #156  
Old 05-22-2012, 07:20 AM
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So what is your conclusion based on reading and studying all the evidence of the old testament, and what Jesus said about the old testament in the New Testament?
My conclusion is I couldn't care less. The ban on homosexuality is of no more concern to me than the ban on eating pork.

Scholars are puzzled by most of the references to the subject. It isn't clear from context whether some of them refer to all homosexual conduct or only to sex with male prostitutes or the male temple acolytes favored by pagan cultures.

As for Paul, he also condoned slavery and the oppression of women. Not much of a moral authority in my book. But I do think women should at least cover their heads in church if they are going to vote against gay marriage.
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  #157  
Old 05-22-2012, 07:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Soulmagent View Post
My opinion was that the two teachers expressing their religous beliefs
in a non violent non threating mannor is their religous freedom. Even if those beliefs see it to be a sin ,the same as murder....
But comparing homosexuality to murder is NEITHER non-threatening NOR non-violent. Continuing to pretend it is is willful blindness.
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  #158  
Old 05-22-2012, 07:35 AM
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Teachers make public statements all the time - this is only offensive to some because it's based on the Bible.
No. No. No. Let's talk again when you've been equated with murderers for a few decades, since you seem incapable of following the topic here.
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  #159  
Old 05-22-2012, 07:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Charlie09 View Post
Would you care that a fundamentalist Christian is not discriminated against by an outspoken gay marriage activist who is also the civics teacher?

Do you really think that discrimination only happens on one side of the isle? That bullying only happens on one side of the isle?

Guess what, the real world means not everyone likes you or appreciates every stand you make - no matter where your political, religious, or any other compass points. Disagreement with someone does not have to include bullying - it'd be good if a couple on the pro-marriage side on this thread could understand that.
I've wrestled with this one myself, having taught numerous fundamentalist students over the years and even one semester at a fundamentalist college.

It's a tough one because fundamentalism is by definition basically opposed to learning. It's certainly incompatible with the scientific method.

I dealt with the issue by asking the students to distinguish between their beliefs and the beliefs of the authors we read. And I allowed them to write about both.
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  #160  
Old 05-22-2012, 07:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Charlie09 View Post
Teachers make public statements all the time - this is only offensive to some because it's based on the Bible.
The issue isn't just a public statement, and you know it. There is a far cry between a public statement of "I hate Mondays! Worst day in the world!" and "Homosexuality is a sin on par with murder" (summarizing).

One does not call into question the ability of the teacher to treat students and subject matter fairly. One does.

One does not inflame against a group that is historically marginalized. The other does.
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  #161  
Old 05-22-2012, 09:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Nova View Post
But comparing homosexuality to murder is NEITHER non-threatening NOR non-violent. Continuing to pretend it is is willful blindness.

How is merely comparing the two violent?

Are you are comparing spoken word to actualy being violent here?

Can you explain to me how you personaly veiw his post as violent or threatening?

I am not seeing in his statement the same thing as you and I am interested as to why.

Last edited by Soulmagent; 05-22-2012 at 09:19 AM.
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  #162  
Old 05-22-2012, 09:20 AM
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Teachers make public statements all the time - this is only offensive to some because it's based on the Bible.
It's offensive to me AS A CHRISTIAN that it's "based on the Bible," but that is not my main concern here.

As a former high school teacher, I know whereof I speak when it comes to colleagues who are sick with prejudice.
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  #163  
Old 05-22-2012, 10:41 AM
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No. No. No. Let's talk again when you've been equated with murderers for a few decades, since you seem incapable of following the topic here.
Christians have long had the murderers label put on them. Not even equated to it. Just directly applied.
  #164  
Old 05-22-2012, 10:54 AM
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Christians have long had the murderers label put on them. Not even equated to it. Just directly applied.
??? Ich verstehe nicht. Are you referring to the majority of those who fought for Hitler being Lutheran or Catholic?
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  #165  
Old 05-22-2012, 10:56 AM
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But it's NOT rare! Otherwise there wouldn't be countless Protestant denominations in the first place (and I single out the Protestants only because they uniquely go bible-only for ultimate authority, as opposed to capital-T tradition, which predates the bible; i have a different and separate problem with the catholic and orthodox churches on this issue lol) who have split and split and split due to different interpretations of different parts of the bible.

So what then? Whose interpretation ultimately prevails? Your interpretation that the bible says homosexuality is a sin akin to murder? Or the liberal Christian's interpretation that the bible says it is not homosexuality that is the sin, but sexual relations that are against one' own nature?

It is an argument that belongs nowhere near our kids In the public schools. This teach made a public declaration, "in front" of students, about his belief that homosexuals are on par with murderers. How then can any parent trust that teacher to treat homosexual students fairly, or to trust that he will field any question regarding, say, gay history, civil rights (he is after all a social studies teacher), etc, impartially?

Let the theologians argue about angels on the head of a pin. Not the public school teachers.
The split isn't usually over what the scripture says, more over how some want to apply it.

If one reads the verses regarding homosexuality, and the other sins listed along with it, it's very clear what God's position is, especially in the broader context of the entirety of the Bible. And let's be clear the Bible doesn't say, nor has anyone here said, that homosexuality is akin to murder. That's a distortion. The teacher, the Bible, and my post said sin is sin.

The teacher's post accurately reflects what the Bible says, and his beliefs. The only mistake he made in my eyes is in having his students as friends on Facebook. I worked in education/with youth for years, and started out when I was young too. A very clear, strong boundary has to be drawn between teachers and students. IMO teachers should not have students as Facebook friends. It'd be wrong of the school district to discipline him in any way, as they had no SM policy, and teachers still have First Amendment rights to stand for what they believe in.

He was very open that he likewise acknowledged he sinned. Again, he believes all have sinned and fallen short. That means we are all on equal playing field. He doesn't think he's better or gays worse. Yes, I absolutely believe he can do his job effectively and well without mistreating others.
  #166  
Old 05-22-2012, 11:02 AM
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I've wrestled with this one myself, having taught numerous fundamentalist students over the years and even one semester at a fundamentalist college.

It's a tough one because fundamentalism is by definition basically opposed to learning. It's certainly incompatible with the scientific method.

I dealt with the issue by asking the students to distinguish between their beliefs and the beliefs of the authors we read. And I allowed them to write about both.
Huh. I'm not big on labels, but believing in God and His word does not make one "opposed to learning" nor is it "incompatible with the scientific method". Perhaps we've exposed a bit of unintentional bias here?

Absolutely a Christian student should seek to understand the what and why of others' beliefs, as well as an author's POV/theme. Glad you let them compare and contrast voices.
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Old 05-22-2012, 11:06 AM
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??? Ich verstehe nicht. Are you referring to the majority of those who fought for Hitler being Lutheran or Catholic?
There are many instances. I don't want to sidetrack with listing them. Suffice it to say anyone with a more than a basic education knows that the label has been applied to Christians more broadly.

I know zero Christians who would consider LGBTs murderers or apply that label.
  #168  
Old 05-22-2012, 11:56 AM
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There are many instances. I don't want to sidetrack with listing them. Suffice it to say anyone with a more than a basic education knows that the label has been applied to Christians more broadly.

I know zero Christians who would consider LGBTs murderers or apply that label.
The classic "blood libel" falsehoods were of Christian invention, blaming Jews for the deaths of Christian children in order "to use their blood in certain aspects of their religious rituals and holidays," the most famous - infamous - involving Hugh of Lincoln in England in 1255. (Wiki) I really can't think of any where the shoe was on the other foot, so to speak.
  #169  
Old 05-22-2012, 12:12 PM
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A fool and his job are soon parted.

His equation of homosexuality and murder actively indicates that he would not be able to teach gay or lesbian students in a non-discriminatory manner. He has no place in public education.

Yes, we're free to state our opinion; but we're also liable for the beliefs we hold - especially those we express in public forums like Facebook.
I have to agree with others who pointed out that he did not equate homosexuality and murder, he said homosexuality is sin as are murder, lying, cheating etc and went on to say he too is a sinner.

His statement of belief does not indicate he wouldn't be able to teach LGBTs fairly. He also acknowledged lying as sin. Most consider lying wrong. If a teacher, like most, believes lying is wrong, and that teacher catches a student lying, is the argument that then the teacher could not teach that student fairly?

Christians separate sin from sinners, which we all are. I think he demonstrates conviction, compassion, and courage in his post.
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  #170  
Old 05-22-2012, 12:14 PM
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facebook, even though it may be set to "private," is broadcasting. If you wouldn't stand up in front of a public audience and say it (due to manners, for instance, or job preservation ), perhaps it's better left unpublished on your facebook page? Uhhh, yeah.

I don't ascribe to facebook, won't do it until I know what they're going to do with all the minutia they're compiling-- but this case, like others, is a big hint, folks. A HUGE hint... heck, it'll probably become as powerful a screening tool as credit reports. They'll certainly use what they gather to "deny" you one thing or another... government and insurance companies will lead the pack, then employers, then...?

Yes, he made a public statement of faith, acknowledging God's word and his faith.

I'm with you on Facebook. Not for me!
  #171  
Old 05-22-2012, 12:29 PM
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I have to agree with others who pointed out that he did not equate homosexuality and murder, he said homosexuality is sin as are murder, lying, cheating etc and went on to say he too is a sinner.
What in God's name was he doing, then, when he put them in the following proximity and the following order, when listing - ranking? - them thusly:
Quote:
"[Homosexuality] ranks in God's eyes the same as murder, lying stealing, or cheating."
Also, it's entirely possible to be a Christian and not consider homosexuality a sin. Or at the very least to take a step back and rely on the good ol', time-tested, "Judge not, that ye not be judged" from Matthew 7, KJV.
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  #172  
Old 05-22-2012, 12:51 PM
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Comparing homosexuality to murder is not a benign comparison in a country where murder merits the death penalty. That comparison is practically an invitation to others to commit hate crimes.

But to be perfectly accurate, according to the Bible, God equates homosexuality with eating shellfish and wearing clothing made from two kinds of cloth. There are far more biblical passages condemning divorce.
First, he in no way advocated hate crimes. God's word lists multiple sins together, as he reflected in his posts. Your issue is with what God has said.

That isn't accurate. You're solely referencing Leviticus here. Homosexuality is addressed in:

Genesis
Leviticus
Deuteronomy
Romans
I Corinthians
Galations
I Timothy
II Timothy
Jude


There are even more when you consider scriptures about fornication (sex outside of marriage). While there are many scriptures about divorce, there are only a few condemning it, ie that God hates divorce and that the Biblical reasons for divorce are adultery/sexual immorality and abandonment.

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  #173  
Old 05-22-2012, 12:56 PM
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What in God's name was he doing, then, when he put them in the following proximity and the following order, when listing - ranking? - them thusly:

Also, it's entirely possible to be a Christian and not consider homosexuality a sin. Or at the very least to take a step back and rely on the good ol', time-tested, "Judge not, that ye not be judged" from Matthew 7, KJV.
I'm reading from the start of the thread as I'd hopped around before but just saw this.

Would it have been more acceptable to you if he'd put it at the end of the statement, or the middle? How many times can one ignore that he's saying sin is sin?

Yes, to be a Christian, all one has to do is acknowledge that they've sinned, need salvation, and accept Jesus's sacrifice on the cross, and acknowledge Him as their Lord and Savior. Some Christians never crack a Bible - transactional faith. I accepted Jesus, now I'm done. Yes, Christians can be in error about what God says in the Bible.

That verse, in context:


7*“Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2*For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

God also calls us to "speak the truth in love". If we believe God's word that homosexuality is sin, and that without repentance and salvation, that person will be damned to hell, to not express that truth when we are called to do so is cruel and uncaring.
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Old 05-22-2012, 01:12 PM
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Evidently he also is deluded enough to think himself able to view the world through the eyes of a deity.

He really should have stuck to giving multiple choice tests about material covered by his textbook.
He isn't deluded. We can see the world through the eyes of a diety. He's given us His word for that exact purpose. You've self identified as a Christian. Do you not believe in the Bible?? You quoted it a minute ago?? You don't have to answer, just can't figure out your stance...

He wasn't doing this in the classroom.
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Old 05-22-2012, 01:19 PM
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I thought this was an interesting article on CNN's page the other day, worth a look; it's by an ordained Catholic priest and theologian:

My Take: What the Bible really says about homosexuality
I read it. Unfortunately, it's skewed, skipping over many scriptures and either misinterpreting some or misrepresenting them.
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