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Old 05-16-2012, 11:46 PM
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AZ - Isabel Mercedes Celis, 6, Tucson, 20 April 2012 - #24

Please continue here.

Please remember TOS.

Please do not discuss the minor children in an accusatory nature. They are victims of this situation and should be treated as such, unless LE tells us differently.

Please remember that theories and speculation are welcome, but they must be based in reality. ALSO - if you don't happen to agree with a theory, that's fine, BUT don't be condescending or tell those who are kicking the theory around, how to post.

Please be respectful and civil to each other and the MODS - or TOs will be issued. If you have a question about moderation, what is okay to post, or TOS, PM a mod. They will help you. You may always pm me or any of the mods you are comfortable with. We will get an answer for you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bessie View Post
TUCSON, Ariz. (AP) - Tucson police are searching for a 6-year-old girl who went missing from her home on the city's east side.

Isabel Mercedes Celis was last seen late Friday and discovered to be missing at about 8 a.m. Saturday.

Sgt. Maria Hawke says police are searching the area around East Broadway Boulevard and Craycroft Road using street patrols, canines, detectives and a helicopter.

She's described as just under 4-feet-tall and weighing 44 pounds, with brown hair and hazel eyes.

Snipped: http://www.kswt.com/story/17650000/t...-year-old-girl

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Full news coverage:http://www.kvoa.com/full-coverage/finding-isabel/

Local Media:
http://www.kgun9.com/
http://www.tucsonnewsnow.com/categor...missing-isabel
http://www.kvoa.com/full-coverage/finding-isabel/
http://www.myfoxphoenix.com/subindex/news/local/tucson
http://azstarnet.com/

Find Isabel Celis Facebook Page: http://www.facebook.com/FindIsabelCelis
new website for Isabel Celis:http://bringisahome.com/
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Old 06-22-2012, 09:22 PM
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AZ - Isabel Mercedes Celis, 6, Tucson, 20 April 2012 - #24

Please continue here.

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Old 06-23-2012, 12:34 AM
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This is so sad. Two months and silence.

I don't have anything new to add to the conversation right now either except to say that I can't stop thinking about little Isa and how she should be out enjoying a new summer, wearing flip flops and eating Popsicles! I just try to keep up hope remembering Elizabeth Smart taking about Isa's disappearance..."There were quite a few similarities between her story and my story, being kidnapped out of bed, coming through a window and then just disappearing into thin air."

So even though it has been 2 months now we need to keep going. One week after Isa's disappearance Elizabeth smart commented ..."I know it seems like a week, nothing's come up, no suspects, still searching, those kinds of answers can really drag a person down," she said, "But, I think you can compare it to my case if people gave up after a week of searching for me, I certainly wouldn't be here today."

Isa we aren't giving up!

http://www.kgun9.com/news/local/149181705.html
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Old 06-23-2012, 04:22 AM
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I agree with you Othereyes.

I also have nothing to add right now. Just kinda taking up space to keep this little girl on the front page of the forum, and to keep her in my heart and prayers.

Bump for Isa
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Old 06-23-2012, 06:54 AM
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I think that little angel is already dead, unfortunately
Justice for Isa, they have to find out what happenned to her,
not another case like the other children who haven´t been found yet
and also taken from their beds

http://www.google.de/imgres?um=1&hl=...r:5,s:18,i:145
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Old 06-23-2012, 11:45 AM
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Here's a list of how many (stories + videos + blogs) come up when I search for Isabel's name on each of the news websites.

CBS: 8 results
CNN: 45 results
FOX: 5 results
ABC: 38 results

What is up with CBS and FOX almost completely ignoring the case? FOX had 114 stories + videos for Kyron's case!

Last edited by eileenhawkeye; 06-23-2012 at 12:24 PM.
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Old 06-23-2012, 01:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DIRK SCHILLER View Post
I think that little angel is already dead, unfortunately
Justice for Isa, they have to find out what happenned to her,
not another case like the other children who haven´t been found yet
and also taken from their beds

http://www.google.de/imgres?um=1&hl=...r:5,s:18,i:145

Thank you for the link. Since the CA case in FL, I have been wondering what can be done to educate people about handling issues in their lives, BEFORE tragedy strikes. When parents and sitters hurt and kill children, it may be due to stress or depression. I know ZIP about psychology, but something must be missing in people's upbringing to allow so may people to hurt/kill/neglect innocent little children. There will always be mentally ill people, but how can so many people harm children?

The sheer number of sex-offenders boggles my mind. Perhaps the ratio of SOs to regular people has remained constant - the registration of and statistics regarding SOs may make the numbers APPEAR increased. But seeing there are HUNDREDS around IC's home is jaw-dropping. Seeing HUNDREDS in MY area is jaw-dropping. Are these people not being taught as children to respect others? I realize some of these SOs have mental issues and will always exist. What causes so many men (primarily) to think children are their play-toys? I can't comprehend this at all.

It seems to me some education could help decrease the sheer numbers of SOs and their victims. Education for parents as well, to help handle the stress of child-rearing. Education period. The US seems to value education less and less each day, and the results are more ignorance, more crime, and more harmed/murdered children.
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Old 06-23-2012, 02:00 PM
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JM's court record update. The one DUI charge from Douglas.

7/23/2012 CAL: TKL FTP
6/22/2012 CAL: TKL FTP

http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/publ...aselookup.aspx
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Old 06-23-2012, 02:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ditdot
I was reading docs again and I noticed Sergio name is on one then say ALIAS and its blacked out alot!!!
Quoting from thread #23, post #938. I spent last night going back through the doc dump - is this what you saw, ditdot? Packet 6, page 2. I'm not very good at reading police reports, but I think it's in reference to SCJr.? The name is SMC, who I assume is Junior. That would make sense re: the redacted parts. Of course, this may not be what you're referring to. I'm still going through Packet 6 again, and will keep looking for any mention of an alias or nickname.

I do remember a post somewhere that stated SC used to go by his middle name in high school. The poster's daughter (?) went to the same school, which is where the information came from, so maybe any reports that have an alias for SC are referring to his middle name. I've searched, but so far can't find where I read this.
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Old 06-23-2012, 04:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel View Post
Quoting from thread #23, post #938. I spent last night going back through the doc dump - is this what you saw, ditdot? Packet 6, page 2. I'm not very good at reading police reports, but I think it's in reference to SCJr.? The name is SMC, who I assume is Junior. That would make sense re: the redacted parts. Of course, this may not be what you're referring to. I'm still going through Packet 6 again, and will keep looking for any mention of an alias or nickname.

I do remember a post somewhere that stated SC used to go by his middle name in high school. The poster's daughter (?) went to the same school, which is where the information came from, so maybe any reports that have an alias for SC are referring to his middle name. I've searched, but so far can't find where I read this.
I was curious about that post too. Do Dad and son have the same middle name/initial?

ETA: I see Dad is SDC and son is SMC.
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Old 06-23-2012, 04:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Azcrabcakes View Post
Thank you for the link. Since the CA case in FL, I have been wondering what can be done to educate people about handling issues in their lives, BEFORE tragedy strikes. When parents and sitters hurt and kill children, it may be due to stress or depression. I know ZIP about psychology, but something must be missing in people's upbringing to allow so may people to hurt/kill/neglect innocent little children. There will always be mentally ill people, but how can so many people harm children?

The sheer number of sex-offenders boggles my mind. Perhaps the ratio of SOs to regular people has remained constant - the registration of and statistics regarding SOs may make the numbers APPEAR increased. But seeing there are HUNDREDS around IC's home is jaw-dropping. Seeing HUNDREDS in MY area is jaw-dropping. Are these people not being taught as children to respect others? I realize some of these SOs have mental issues and will always exist. What causes so many men (primarily) to think children are their play-toys? I can't comprehend this at all.

It seems to me some education could help decrease the sheer numbers of SOs and their victims. Education for parents as well, to help handle the stress of child-rearing. Education period. The US seems to value education less and less each day, and the results are more ignorance, more crime, and more harmed/murdered children.
BBM

I absolutely agree!

I know zip about human psychology but as a dog training instructor, I've seen a lot of how people deal with their dogs.

The vast majority of dog owners I've met had absolutely no desire to hurt their dogs and actually loved their dogs a lot. But they are given very poor training advice (think Cesar Millan) and many people don't have many tools in their training toolbox for how to fix their dog's behaviour problems.

So, for example, I would see ridiculous situations such as a rambunctious 6 month old Lab puppy being hit or having its toes stepped on for jumping up on humans. The owners had zip education in how to analyse the situation: a) what is the dog doing wrong, b) what is motivating the dog to perform that behaviour and c) how to manipulate the situation so that the dog can get what it wants via behaviour that the owner wants; d) what (if anything) to do when the dog makes the wrong choice.

When you go through the analysis: a) the Lab puppy is jumping up and clawing at humans; b) the puppy wants human attention; c) time human attention to coincide with when the puppy's front feet are on the ground; d) remove all attention from the puppy when it jumps up.

I have the owner look up at the sky while crossing their arms over their chest when the puppy jumps up. As soon as the puppy's front feet hit the ground, I have the owner make eye contact and cautiously bend over to pet and praise (cautiously because that hard little Lab head is likely to go flying up in the air a time or two until the puppy figures out the new rules).

No more hitting, no more risk of breaking the puppy's toes by stepping on them. Happy owner, happy puppy.

Many people's training tool kit had only a few tools in it: jerk the leash, yell at the dog, smack the dog, step on the dog's toes. My job was to show the owners a whole panoply of tools, so that they would find something that worked that did not involve verbal or physical abuse.

I suspect the same thing may apply to parenting children as well. People start out with only the tools they learned from their own parents and if their own parents had very few tools, then the new parents have very few tools as well.

The human tendency if something doesn't work is to do it louder, faster or harder. The hardest thing I have to teach dog owners is the concept of changing tactics; if one tactic doesn't work, don't keep doing it, try something different!

Well, I could write a whole novel here (and I have).

It just comes down to: I agree with you.
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Old 06-23-2012, 05:02 PM
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Not sure this was ever posted - don't see it o n the new thread in any case.

http://tucsoncitizen.com/pats-bits-and-bytes/?p=159
Pat Alvarez on Jun. 22, 2012

Quote:
What do we do? What do you think? Do you think Sergio did something to his little girl and there is blood evidence? If that is the case…or were the case…I have no doubt that the TPD would have arrested him. If he is/was dangerous to his children, don’t you think Child Protective Services would have filed a petition with the court rather than having him voluntarily stay away from his boys? Think.


No one knows what happened. But lots of people have opinions and the Police/law enforcement, I am sure, have their suspicions. There are so many maybes here. Maybe she was taken away, to protect her…..due to threats by other parties. I don’t know…I’m just speculating. If the police had concrete information that Mr. Celis was a danger to his children…he’d be in jail and the Juvenile Court would have issued orders.


That being said, there are a lot of questions about this family…their associates and relatives. Most people feel their responses and early interactions with the media were suspect. Perhaps so. I myself felt Sergio was being artificial. But, I don’t know what really happened or why they responded as they did as a family and am not willing to condemn them for not appearing as we think they should.
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Old 06-23-2012, 05:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GrainneDhu View Post
BBM

But they are given very poor training advice (think Cesar Millan) and many people don't have many tools in their training toolbox for how to fix their dog's behaviour problems.
Cesar Milan gives bad advice? Actually, I know nothing about dog training either, which is why I can't break my two little doggies from barking at the front door! I have tried Milan's advice, but FAILED. I've had sucess with other things - sit, stay, come, etc.

I guess dog training skills, like parenting skills, don't come naturally to many humans! However, if IC was abducted by a complete stranger, the level of parenting skills don't even enter the equation.

Waiting impatiently for some news.
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Old 06-23-2012, 05:37 PM
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Is it possible to get copies of the search warrants in this case? I know I have seen the search warrants in another case. How does that work?
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Old 06-23-2012, 08:39 PM
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Bumping for Isabel!

Jules71, the media needs to request those docs but they may be sealed still or held back as being part of the investigation they don't want out so no one is tipped off.
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Old 06-24-2012, 01:54 AM
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I have the same question as the above article, if during the course of the investigation they found reason to seperate SC from the remaining kids, why have no formal charges been brought against him...... and if nothing was found why havent they been reunited???? Is LE dragging thier feet?
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Old 06-24-2012, 02:18 AM
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From what I've read here and it makes sense to me, if Sergio or Rebecca did not accept a voluntary argreement, then the sons possibly could be held in a foster home until a court date to defend themselves. Long and lengthy & no parent with them. They agreed to a voluntary agreement where Sergio would have no contact with the boys. BC on the other hand when the story broke there was an article released (anyone?) that BC had custody of the boys along with a family member or something stated similar. I think that person was considered the "monitor" to make sure Sergio had no contact. All part of a process. Contest it, hmmm?

If you check out the form in AZ for a voluntary no contact order, sometimes it requires a monitor depending on circumstances.

gah...
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Old 06-24-2012, 03:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Dr. Know? View Post
From what I've read here and it makes sense to me, if Sergio or Rebecca did not accept a voluntary argreement, then the sons possibly could be held in a foster home until a court date to defend themselves. Long and lengthy & no parent with them. They agreed to a voluntary agreement where Sergio would have no contact with the boys. BC on the other hand when the story broke there was an article released (anyone?) that BC had custody of the boys along with a family member or something stated similar. I think that person was considered the "monitor" to make sure Sergio had no contact. All part of a process. Contest it, hmmm?

If you check out the form in AZ for a voluntary no contact order, sometimes it requires a monitor depending on circumstances.

gah...
Yes, another family member has "joint custody" (for lack of the proper term) with RC while the no contact/safety plan is in effect. I want to say I read it was a sister of RC, but can't say from whence that recollection comes in terms of a MSM link.

What I wonder ... even if SC refused to sign that safety plan, those boys would most likely have been placed with a local family member. Disrupting, perhaps, but not terminally so. At least SC would have vindicated himself in the public eye (the colloquial "grow some" comes to mind) by standing up for himself/his family. For whatever that is worth.

Of course this is only my musing/opinion/thought.

Last edited by pieper4; 06-24-2012 at 05:50 AM. Reason: b/c I am exhausted and can't spell.
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Old 06-24-2012, 09:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Azcrabcakes View Post
Thank you for the link. Since the CA case in FL, I have been wondering what can be done to educate people about handling issues in their lives, BEFORE tragedy strikes. When parents and sitters hurt and kill children, it may be due to stress or depression. I know ZIP about psychology, but something must be missing in people's upbringing to allow so may people to hurt/kill/neglect innocent little children. There will always be mentally ill people, but how can so many people harm children?

The sheer number of sex-offenders boggles my mind. Perhaps the ratio of SOs to regular people has remained constant - the registration of and statistics regarding SOs may make the numbers APPEAR increased. But seeing there are HUNDREDS around IC's home is jaw-dropping. Seeing HUNDREDS in MY area is jaw-dropping. Are these people not being taught as children to respect others? I realize some of these SOs have mental issues and will always exist. What causes so many men (primarily) to think children are their play-toys? I can't comprehend this at all.

It seems to me some education could help decrease the sheer numbers of SOs and their victims. Education for parents as well, to help handle the stress of child-rearing. Education period. The US seems to value education less and less each day, and the results are more ignorance, more crime, and more harmed/murdered children.
I apologize in advance if my post does not address the point you are making, but here goes:

As far as sexual predators and pedophiles go, the lack of education has very little to do with this mental/personality disorder they have. No amount of education can eradicate their desire to do what they do, it's a disease of the mind. Predators can range from lowlifes with little or no formal education all the way up to lawyers, doctors, professors, etc. Educating them is not the answer. Locking them up and throwing away the key seems to be the only solution. We don't know why they got to be the way they are, but most people believe they were sexually abused as children themselves. Whatever the cause, I firmly believe they cannot be rehabilitated. It's a sickness that just keeps growing but there doesn't seem to be a cure for it.

I agree that parents should be educated on how to protect their children, but the only problem with that is, you do not always know when someone IS a predator, they hide their crimes well and they don't always show signs that a person would recognize until it is too late.

As for parents who kill their children, there is no explanation for that. Parents are supposed to protect their children, not harm them. However, while some parents could benefit from parenting classes, a lot of it is just good old common sense mixed in with love and caring and putting your child's needs first, always. If you love your child more than you love yourself or anyone else, you are not knowingly going to do anything that puts your child in harm's way. No one can teach someone to love their children, that is instinct, it's either there or it's not.

I'm certainly not disagreeing with you entirely, just putting a different perspective on things.
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Old 06-24-2012, 01:02 PM
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I apologize in advance if my post does not address the point you are making, but here goes:

As far as sexual predators and pedophiles go, the lack of education has very little to do with this mental/personality disorder they have. No amount of education can eradicate their desire to do what they do, it's a disease of the mind. Predators can range from lowlifes with little or no formal education all the way up to lawyers, doctors, professors, etc. Educating them is not the answer. Locking them up and throwing away the key seems to be the only solution. We don't know why they got to be the way they are, but most people believe they were sexually abused as children themselves. Whatever the cause, I firmly believe they cannot be rehabilitated. It's a sickness that just keeps growing but there doesn't seem to be a cure for it.

I agree that parents should be educated on how to protect their children, but the only problem with that is, you do not always know when someone IS a predator, they hide their crimes well and they don't always show signs that a person would recognize until it is too late.

As for parents who kill their children, there is no explanation for that. Parents are supposed to protect their children, not harm them. However, while some parents could benefit from parenting classes, a lot of it is just good old common sense mixed in with love and caring and putting your child's needs first, always. If you love your child more than you love yourself or anyone else, you are not knowingly going to do anything that puts your child in harm's way. No one can teach someone to love their children, that is instinct, it's either there or it's not.

I'm certainly not disagreeing with you entirely, just putting a different perspective on things.
I'm afraid you are right. ITA you can't teach someone to love, but I think you could, at least some, to handle stress better. I have read that pedophiles can't be cured. In the past castration, or castration through hormones has been tried, but apparently nothing is successful long term.

You're certainly right that they disguise themselves well. Offenders have appeared in the media as greasy, dirty scumbags to clean-shaven-Armani suit-Wall Street types! In the last few years, I have begun to look at anyone and everyone who talks to my grand kids, with suspicious eyes!
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Old 06-24-2012, 01:30 PM
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I was thinking about the abduction of Jaycee Dugard in relation to Isa yesterday. Jaycee was stolen, in broad daylight, with multiple witnesses and even her stepdad chasing after her. Yet, the finger of suspicion was on him for all those years, up until she emerged as an adult. The suspicion was so strong (even though there wasn't any evidence that he had harmed her, just normal familial stuff that might "look" suspicious under a microscope) that it led to the divorce of Jaycee's mom from the stepdad. Looking back, I wonder how anyone really thought he could have been behind her disappearance, and for what end.

I feel like the same thing is happening to SC and RC. I don't believe Mr. Celis is a criminal mastermind that could outsmart the TPD or the FBI. I also believe that if he did something to Isa, her remains would have been found already. In my opinion, due to lack of evidence pointing to the abductor (criminals get lucky, too), the only place LE has to look is at the Celis couple. And unfortunately, that is not going to bring Isa home.
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Old 06-24-2012, 03:29 PM
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Bump for Isa where are you sweet girl...
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Old 06-24-2012, 03:35 PM
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From most of the public's viewpoint, here lies the problem, http://www.kgun9.com/news/local/159977075.html In this video, RC's lack of emotion is actually disturbing. SC wasn't there, so obviously he's still under the CPS agreement after two months. The people behind RC are laughing, knowing the cameras are there and RC is being interviewed. The woman in the middle is I believe Isa's aunt, CL. They could at least act like they're there for a missing child, if they want donations from the public, not a good move to be laughing at a missing child table on camera. In the interview RC sounds like she's there for a charity drive and come over to the table and help out the cause.
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Old 06-24-2012, 04:40 PM
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Here's a hypothetical question, I guess. I'll probably get shot down easily with something one of you knows that I don't, but here goes.

Could there be any reason CPS said one of the parents gets to stay (seemingly with supervision as people have been talking about) with the boys and the other has a no contact order . RC and SC chose for RC to be the parents to stay with the boys. Reason, RC could lose her job if she had a no contact order since she works with kids.
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Old 06-24-2012, 04:44 PM
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Madeleine74 Madeleine74 is offline
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Originally Posted by butterfly1978 View Post
I have the same question as the above article, if during the course of the investigation they found reason to seperate SC from the remaining kids, why have no formal charges been brought against him...... and if nothing was found why havent they been reunited???? Is LE dragging thier feet?
Child Protective Services was contacted and at that point it's their investigation in the fitness of SC as a parent with his remaining children. LE is not part of that. Investigating a missing person case is separate. They can strongly suspect SC's involvement but until they have enough evidence to prove what happened, no DA worth their salt will accept the case. What charges would they bring at this point?
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