FL FL - Michelle Parker, 33, Orlando, 17 Nov 2011 - #22

[Thor]

Originally Posted by Pias

Brilliant! And I'm glad you asked and I will answer you with a question. Which would be easier to open in a closed garage?
A. The cover to the bed of the truck
B. The rear door to the Hummer
C. The rear door to the van
D. Why worry about a rear door that is inaccessible, when you have side doors?


I will answer both A and D.

Yes agreed, A & D with D being the easiest by far ... but wait ... that assumes D can clear the supporting beams, right? And therefore doesn't it all bring us to the initial question of what is the relationship of the Hummer to the garage? And therefore we need the exact measurements so that that we can really answer your question "which would be easier to open in a closed garage?" Which I would slightly change to "which would be easier to open in THIS garage?". Your turn ...

[Pias]

There are many ways to carry a person in your arms, including over your shoulder, under your arm, or across them, dragging, and probably numerous other ways I have failed to mention. I'm thinking, under the circumstances, one really wouldn't care HOW they carried you or got you in there, just that they did.

[Pias]

Why are we so fixated on the Hummer as being the vehicle of transport? Why are we not fixated on ALL the possibilities? Anyway, I think I have addressed your questions to most peoples satisfaction, based on what we see in the photos and plain and simple logic. Sorry if it is not to yours.

[southern_comfort]

I have a request. When speaking about some particular item, such as "the photo of Dale standing in the garage by his truck" which Pias referenced in post 375, can posters include the photo or a link to it? I don't know what picture this is and it's difficult to follow or make sense of the conversation without it.

TIA.

[Pias]

The van may have a sliding side door which would require no room extra room for example. The rear bed cover of the truck opens UP, again, no clearance issues there. That possibly leaves the side doors of only one vehicle in question, the Hummer. When we see Dale standing next to his truck, there appears to be no obstruction to the passenger side of the vehicle. I have a 2 car garage and there is no center beam between the 2 stalls. When I look at the floor plan of the C unit, I see no beam dividing the stalls implied. Before you go putting an obstruction there, I would find out if there is one. In fact, someone went here, or several, have been to that complex and I bet they could tell us if there are any obstructing beams in the 2 car garages. But an email or call will also get you that answer. Just say you are interested in a an available C unit and have some questions. They will be happy to answer!

[Thor]

Originally Posted by Pias

There are many ways to carry a person in your arms, including over your shoulder, under your arm, or across them, dragging, and probably numerous other ways I have failed to mention. I'm thinking, under the circumstances, one really wouldn't care HOW they carried you or got you in there, just that they did.

Even assuming no greater mass at play while carrying, dragging and son on and all the difficulties inherent in manipulating a body trough an opening within a confined space, both of which are serious factor here IMO, isn't "having gotten it in there" the conclusion not the hypothesis? In other words, could have Dale transported the body to the garage and have enough room to maneuver it inside the Hummer assuming the garage door was closed? To answer that, unless I'm familiar with the garage, I need the measurements of all the actors interacting with one another within the space of the garage in order to determine what is possible or not or what fits and what doesn't.

[Pias]

Originally Posted by southern_comfort

I have a request. When speaking about some particular item, such as "the photo of Dale standing in the garage by his truck" which Pias referenced in post 375, can posters include the photo or a link to it? I don't know what picture this is and it's difficult to follow or make sense of the conversation without it.

TIA.

http://i39.tinypic.com/2r7n2m9.png
While this photo is somewhat off to the side, it looks as though he is spaciously parked within the confines of his 2 car garage, allowing ample room for his trucks doors. There is also a news broadcast that allows you a glance. I believe it is in a post I shared a page or 2 back, but I may be mistaken as I didn't go watch it again.

[Thor]

Originally Posted by Pias

The van may have a sliding side door which would require no room extra room for example. The rear bed cover of the truck opens UP, again, no clearance issues there. That possibly leaves the side doors of only one vehicle in question, the Hummer. When we see Dale standing next to his truck, there appears to be no obstruction to the passenger side of the vehicle. I have a 2 car garage and there is no center beam between the 2 stalls. When I look at the floor plan of the C unit, I see no beam dividing the stalls implied. Before you go putting an obstruction there, I would find out if there is one. In fact, someone went here, or several, have been to that complex and I bet they could tell us if there are any obstructing beams in the 2 car garages. But an email or call will also get you that answer. Just say you are interested in a an available C unit and have some questions. They will be happy to answer!

Pias, I only was wondering about the measurements I did not even get into the why until you expressed interest and expressed opinions of your own.

[Pias]

Also, as to the van and Hummer rear doors. If you backed in, opened the door into the house, it is likely that it would allow you enough room to operate a rear door. Try it in your own garage (I did) or have someone with a similar vehicle do it for you.

[Thor]

Originally Posted by Pias

Also, as to the van and Hummer rear doors. If you backed in, opened the door into the house, it is likely that it would allow you enough room to operate a rear door. Try it in your own garage (I did) or have someone with a similar vehicle do it for you.

I own several houses and one condo each garage is different, in some I could fit the Hummer in others I couldn't, in some if I put the hummer or similar vehicle in there I could scarcely open the doors in others I can open them then some ..., in any case, that was only something I was wondering ...., I'll look into it whenever. Gotta run ... later.

[PJFL]

Are decals usually applied on the inside or outside of windows? Anyone know?

[Jazzmaster]

Originally Posted by Thor

I was at some point intending to see if I could find info on the measurements of DS's garage and particularly about its relationship to the size of the hummer and the position of the inside door leading to the condo's dwelling but then I got sidetracked by other considerations, I'll see if I can revisit that issue when I can devote some real time to it since it involves a lot of new thinking and research.

Do you think Dale buried Michelle or left her somewhere in the elements? TIA

[Jazzmaster]

Originally Posted by Thor

I own several houses and one condo each garage is different, in some I could fit the Hummer in others I couldn't, in some if I put the hummer or similar vehicle in there I could scarcely open the doors in others I can open them then some ..., in any case, that was only something I was wondering ...., I'll look into it whenever. Gotta run ... later.

Did you ever own a H3? TIA

[Jazzmaster]

Originally Posted by Thor

"But wouldn't you at least admit you discount all of the circumstantial evidence released thus far?"

What circumstantial evidence directly related to this case has been released and by whom? I know only of one which is DS is the last known person to have seen MP alive and that by itself is very little IMO.

"The reason he is the suspect is he lied over and over again IMO and his story doesn't hold water ..."

What lies? What story doesn't hold water? We have no idea what DS has told the investigators, do we? LE has made no statements about DS lying about anything. My guess is DS is saying nothing at this point, and we know that he initially cooperated with LE by answering questions, so may be he made statements that the police think are not true or contradictory and may be not, we don't know one way or the other, do we?

"I know you like healthy debates but I still haven't seen any good theories on someone other than Dale ...""

Either DS did it or someone else did it, that seems pretty much clear IMO. Just because we don't know that someone else did it doesn't mean DS did it, I have to believe you know that as well, it seems a pretty straightforward assumption to me. However as someone else said here before, theories are fine and theorizing is necessary if you're trying to make sense of things, however conclusion may differ and isn't that what a debate is all about? Do you want to hear something different then what you think or not? I do, or I would find the whole thing besides the point from a debate point of view.

"... nor have I seen ANY supporting evidence to clear Dale ..."

I need to assume DS innocent not the other way around, which is different from envisioning several scenarios where DS is the perp for the purpose of testing this or that theory, and ultimately I must have evidence to support a particular conclusion. In other words there is a basic difference for me between theories and conclusions. The standard for the first is whatever you think for the latter is whatever you can prove with evidence.

I still think Dale did it no matter how many ways we try to dance around the issue. If you do enough research you will find an abundant amount of circumstantial evidence...not sure if there's physical evidence IMO There were plenty of screen captures that don't look so hot for Dale and Papa bear. We shall see won't we. I will buy you a beer at the Tiki Hut if I turn out to be wrong....

[What'sThatClue]

Originally Posted by PJFL

Are decals usually applied on the inside or outside of windows? Anyone know?

I think it depends on the decal. But I Don't know for sure.

[Kamille]

Originally Posted by PJFL

Are decals usually applied on the inside or outside of windows? Anyone know?

Everything that I've researched on this type of full window decal indicates that they are applied to the outside of the window.

HTH

[Kamille]

I'm a little confused on the garage discussion. Are we trying to determine if someone who parked in the garage would have access to the interior door? Or if they would be able to open the doors of their vehicle inside the garage?

[PJFL]

Has it ever been established who applied Michelle's decals? I've searched and found nothing. Also, I did a bit of research after I asked my question and found decals can be applied inside and outside. Interesting. Imagine how much easier it'd be to remove the decals from inside the Hummer without being seen--regardless of it being at the curb or in the garage.

[Kamille]

Originally Posted by Thor

I couldn't agree more with you here, I think it would be very instructive if somebody here would be really familiar with forensic evidence and could shed a more precise light on how forensic science work in general and specifically on the viability of forensic evidence over a long period of time and under various exposures by outside elements.

Nothing I posted about the particular evidence surrounding the finding of Michelle's body really would indicate much in the way of forensics....as in perpetrator DNA, which is most likely non existant at this time.

DNA is still a relatively new science that is developing daily and should never be the basis for any court case unless it can absolutely rule someone in or out IMO. It is really only useful in court cases as an identity marker IMO. Defence attornies spend a lot of time, money and effort taking seminars and courses on how to discount DNA findings and create reasonable doubt so I really wish that juries would not be taken in so much with the CSI effect and go back to solving cases the old fashioned way, with good old common sense.

As far as forensics relating to cause and/or manner of death and materials that are found with the body and whom they may point at, well that is a different story I suppose.

MOO

[Pias]

Originally Posted by Thor

Even assuming no greater mass at play while carrying, dragging and son on and all the difficulties inherent in manipulating a body trough an opening within a confined space, both of which are serious factor here IMO, isn't "having gotten it in there" the conclusion not the hypothesis? In other words, could have Dale transported the body to the garage and have enough room to maneuver it inside the Hummer assuming the garage door was closed? To answer that, unless I'm familiar with the garage, I need the measurements of all the actors interacting with one another within the space of the garage in order to determine what is possible or not or what fits and what doesn't.

Here again, we are assuming that she was not under her own power to put herself in the vehicle, or to fight being put into it. We are also concluding Michelle was removed from the premises, that a search warrant was issued and potential DNA evidence collected. I'm not so sure that is the case. Correct me if I am wrong, but Dale voluntarily cooperated initially and when a reporter went to Dales door, there was no answer, but officers were posted and waiting outside his condo. (see my previous post a page or 2 back for that link, please) That could indicate they did not have a warrant at that time. Can we really say with certainty that DNA evidence or any evidence was collected from Dale's vehicles? I only know of some of the things done to/with/around the Hummer as it relates to the autos. I'm also not sure she was ever in any of the 3 vehicles discussed above. What is to say there is not a completely different vehicle involved. One that would run less risk of being searched, like that of a visitor (friend or relative)? There are a lot of potential variables. Where were dogs used, and of which training? There had to be a DNA exchange, but where? It is likely possible, unless someone has knowledge otherwise, that Dale's attorney protected Dale before DNA evidence was collected at his residence or from his vehicle. At that time, they were likely unsure they even had a crime, and may have been legally bound not to collect it, or felt they had no reason to at that time they had access. I'm not saying they did or didn't, I am saying I don't know.

I am sorry I get lost on all these other details when all you are really looking for is a tape measure. Perhaps just going to your vehicle and open the door half way and see what you can stuff through it. Ask a friend to help if you do not have anyone at home to help you. you could also build a simulated dummy using lumber, some chain or rope, any type of weight (such as heavy chain) equal to roughly 135 lbs, and some type of covering such as clothing, blanket, etc. Cut the lumber into sections, similar to that of a body and joint them together using the rope or chain, add additional weight and cover with clothing and or a blanket/sheet or other covering if desired. To rigor your dummy, ductape the joints and continue testing. These are just a few additional options you might try if everything else fails. Just add all the obstacles into one scenario that you feel one could encounter, and find a way around them. Sounds like a challenge to me. I like challenges, so it is quite possible I have run a few of these suggested tests (and several others) myself. What I think you will find, regardless of available room, is DNA or other exchange of trace evidence will be left. The only way to NOT leave it is to not leave at all. Mostly MO. (Life size Halloween skeletons can make a great dummy too, if you happen to have one handy. You can even fill their hollow bodies with dirt or sand to get your added weight!)

[Pias]

Originally Posted by PJFL

Has it ever been established who applied Michelle's decals? I've searched and found nothing. Also, I did a bit of research after I asked my question and found decals can be applied inside and outside. Interesting. Imagine how much easier it'd be to remove the decals from inside the Hummer without being seen--regardless of it being at the curb or in the garage.

you might ask on the family site. It is even possible they were both inside and out (Inside on the rear b/c of a rear wiper, outside on the sides).

[Thor]

Originally Posted by Jazzmaster

Did you ever own a H3? TIA

Nope, not into big vehicles ... why?

[Jazzmaster]

Originally Posted by Pias

Here again, we are assuming that she was not under her own power to put herself in the vehicle, or to fight being put into it. We are also concluding Michelle was removed from the premises, that a search warrant was issued and potential DNA evidence collected. I'm not so sure that is the case. Correct me if I am wrong, but Dale voluntarily cooperated initially and when a reporter went to Dales door, there was no answer, but officers were posted and waiting outside his condo. (see my previous post a page or 2 back for that link, please) That could indicate they did not have a warrant at that time. Can we really say with certainty that DNA evidence or any evidence was collected from Dale's vehicles? I only know of some of the things done to/with/around the Hummer as it relates to the autos. I'm also not sure she was ever in any of the 3 vehicles discussed above. What is to say there is not a completely different vehicle involved. One that would run less risk of being searched, like that of a visitor (friend or relative)? There are a lot of potential variables. Where were dogs used, and of which training? There had to be a DNA exchange, but where? It is likely possible, unless someone has knowledge otherwise, that Dale's attorney protected Dale before DNA evidence was collected at his residence or from his vehicle. At that time, they were likely unsure they even had a crime, and may have been legally bound not to collect it, or felt they had no reason to at that time they had access. I'm not saying they did or didn't, I am saying I don't know.

I am sorry I get lost on all these other details when all you are really looking for is a tape measure. Perhaps just going to your vehicle and open the door half way and see what you can stuff through it. Ask a friend to help if you do not have anyone at home to help you. you could also build a simulated dummy using lumber, some chain or rope, any type of weight (such as heavy chain) equal to roughly 135 lbs, and some type of covering such as clothing, blanket, etc. Cut the lumber into sections, similar to that of a body and joint them together using the rope or chain, add additional weight and cover with clothing and or a blanket/sheet or other covering if desired. To rigor your dummy, ductape the joints and continue testing. These are just a few additional options you might try if everything else fails. Just add all the obstacles into one scenario that you feel one could encounter, and find a way around them. Sounds like a challenge to me. I like challenges, so it is quite possible I have run a few of these suggested tests (and several others) myself. What I think you will find, regardless of available room, is DNA or other exchange of trace evidence will be left. The only way to NOT leave it is to not leave at all. Mostly MO. (Life size Halloween skeletons can make a great cadaver, too, if you happen to have one handy. You can even fill their hollow bodies with dirt or sand to get your added weight!)

Thank you for the step by step. I have been conducting a few tests myself and have figured some things out through trial and error. Sometimes when we think outside the box we can figure out how a dishonorably discharged ex-marine thinks. It is a scary place to get in the mind of a killer like Dale but if you sort through his extensive online history and posts along with conducting tests like the one you have so eloquently described above Pias you get closer to how Dale and his accomplice made Michelle "disappear"....this was well planned I will give them credit for that but they didn't factor in LE getting involved so quickly and that thru a bit of a monkey wrench in there....but nevertheless it is what is and each day we get one step closer to the truth. Praying for justice for Michelle and for Dale to get what he has coming. All JMO

[Thor]

Originally Posted by Jazzmaster

Thank you for the step by step. I have been conducting a few tests myself and have figured some things out through trial and error. Sometimes when we think outside the box we can figure out how a dishonorably discharged ex-marine thinks. It is a scary place to get in the mind of a killer like Dale but if you sort through his extensive online history and posts along with conducting tests like the one you have so eloquently described above Pias you get closer to how Dale and his accomplice made Michelle "disappear"....this was well planned I will give them credit for that but they didn't factor in LE getting involved so quickly and that thru a bit of a monkey wrench in there....but nevertheless it is what is and each day we get one step closer to the truth. Praying for justice for Michelle and for Dale to get what he has coming. All JMO

If Dale is the perp is almost inconceivable this was planned. IMO

[Jazzmaster]

Originally Posted by Thor

If Dale is the perp is almost inconceivable this was planned. IMO

It was a crime years in the making IMO. She knew his secret gay lovers, was receiving child support, he knew she was dating a better man, and he had no shot at winning her back. He may have even tried to buy her back if you know what I mean...She wouldn't do that for money...he told her her day was coming and he threatened to kidnap the kids. This was VERY planned IMO. Just saying' ALL JMO and theories for sleuthing purposes.