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  #1226  
Old 08-06-2012, 05:03 PM
otto otto is offline
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Originally Posted by SapphireSteel View Post
This is what I would like to know.

It feels important, especially when "staging" is discussed.

I have asked for a link where Abbas says they were against the fence, no one has provided one as yet, but apparently he made this comment in a presser.

TG most definitely said he "swerved" around the bikes on his ride, at or about 12.20.
Have you located any links related to how the bikes were positioned when Abben or the police first saw them?
  #1227  
Old 08-06-2012, 05:04 PM
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Originally Posted by lishac23 View Post
I agree. I also wish they would confirm/deny the sighting of the bikes by TG. While I appreciate LE's need for discretion...I tend to pout when the information seems so trivial and worth sharing...and yet they still "can't confirm".
I think they DID confirm. The only problem is Sandy Breault used the word "runner" instead of "cyclist"...

Breault said they are looking for anyone who might have been at the park, on the trails or on the water. Elizabeth Collins and Lyric Cook-Morrissey disappeared July 13.
“There was a gentleman who regularly runs around the lake. He didn’t see either one of the girls ... but he did see their bikes and he was able to pinpoint the time of the day that he saw the bikes. Small details like this are really important to the investigation,” she said.



http://wcfcourier.com/news/evansdale...9bb2963f4.html
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  #1228  
Old 08-06-2012, 05:05 PM
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Originally Posted by otto View Post
Have you located any links related to how the bikes were positioned when Abben or the police first saw them?
I didn't claim it so I'm not looking for it. I'm going with TG's statement.

I've asked those who claimed it to provide a link but so far nothing.

I'm not saying he DIDN'T say it...I'd just like confirmation (even if it is only msm).

  #1229  
Old 08-06-2012, 05:09 PM
AmarilloByAM AmarilloByAM is offline
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12 year old girl missing in England. Last seen leaving her grandmother's house. Suspicious white van reported. The similarities to this case are weird, aren't they?!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ls-return.html
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  #1230  
Old 08-06-2012, 05:14 PM
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Funny, after last week and all the hubbub about white vans in general and a white van astro involved in teh attempted abduction of the 5 yr old in Cedar Rapids, I left work and low and behold, in the parking lot of the business next door was an entire fleet of White Astro company work vans.

One of our members posted last week that part of the commonality of white vans was that many companies have fleets of company vehicles that are used by employees. As those fleets age and become less of an asset and are replaced - those vans are often sold to private individuals, hence the seeming plethora of white "work" type vans on the roads today.

My DH is a contractor and we ourselves had three white utility vans on the road along with our trucks and other equipment at any one time.
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  #1231  
Old 08-06-2012, 05:17 PM
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I took the time to search for the fact that Abben said that when he saw the bikes, they were leaning against the fence. This information was released on July 18 and reposted on this website on July 30. Here is the link:

Post number 272; at the 8:47 time mark.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sho...180309&page=11

'One bike had a kick stand, the other didn't. When he got there the bikes were leaning against the fence but he says that he can't say who leaned the bikes against the fence.'
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  #1232  
Old 08-06-2012, 05:18 PM
otto otto is offline
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Originally Posted by cindysue View Post
I thought the bikes were parked at the gate.
The bikes were found on Evansdale Trail ... at the gate.
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  #1233  
Old 08-06-2012, 05:20 PM
GrainneDhu GrainneDhu is offline
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Originally Posted by otto View Post
I think you make a good point. There was one summer when my son fell in with some unsupervised children. He was not honest with me about what he was doing and when he was late, I didn't even know where to begin looking for him. Looking at the location of the Collin's home, it would make more sense to look along the river, which is only a couple of blocks from the house. The decision to look at the lake suggests that someone knew that it was a likely spot.

It could be as simple as one of the relatives knowing that the girls were sneaking off to the lake without Grandma knowing what they were up to, and keeping the secret. Some adults want to be a child's friend, rather than an authoritarian figure, so they keep children's secrets. The person that first suggested the lake is probably the relative that kept the secret from Grandma and the parents. That doesn't mean that the relative was involved with the abduction, only that the relative did not enforce the rules and, as a result, the children were vulnerable to abduction.
Ollipop mentioned the river in one of these threads. He said that along the stretch in Evansdale, there's a levee that is steep enough so that it would discourage casual exploration. He said he'd never seen either kids or adults on top of the levee.

LE did check the river and I am certain that if they were in the river, their bodies would have been found by now.
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  #1234  
Old 08-06-2012, 05:23 PM
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Originally Posted by otto View Post
Ollipop, who lives really close to the lake, was unaware of the trail that started at the Sewer Lift Station prior to this abduction. Arbutus looks like a residential road that wouldn't be a high traffic area.
I would imagine if someone living nearby didn't know much about it, that its not a very well "known" trail...unless you have been there...maybe a maintenance worker for the lift. I looked it up online and its privately owned (sure LE has looked into it already). Just thinking out loud trying to make peace with the opposing sides in my head. If we use maiden lane/arbutus ave as the route taken by the perp...if he/she/they took them from somewhere else and went in that way to dispose of their property, how would he/she/they get the bikes to the other side? LE has confirmed that the bikes didn't appear to have any damage, so we know they weren't thrown over. I think it would take too much of a risk of being seen to walk them to the open gate and put them down/against the fence....andthen walk back to his car. (all within the time frame of the jogger/cyclist seeing their bikes on the path)

IMO its more plausible that the perp would have snagged them on the path, walked them through the open gate towards his parked car and drove off with them.


I welcome all opposition to my theories...I appreciate perspectives/viewpoints I may have missed.
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  #1235  
Old 08-06-2012, 05:24 PM
otto otto is offline
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Originally Posted by SapphireSteel View Post
How do you think I feel?

I'm trying to convert it all to metrics....

Maths isn't my best subject at the best of times. Frankly I have no idea what the difference in yards, feet, or metres is.

39 inches per metre, 36 inches per yard. 12 inches per foot, 30 centimetres per foot. 3 feet per yard. 100 centimetres per meter ... which is similar to a yard.

I thought Canadians had to be fairly ambidextrous when it came to measurements. Construction materials are still imperial, measuring tapes and rulers are both ... food is in lbs and kg ... temperature is celcius on Canadian news and fahrenheit on US news ...
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  #1236  
Old 08-06-2012, 05:26 PM
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Originally Posted by otto View Post
39 inches per metre, 36 inches per yard. 12 inches per foot, 30 centimetres per foot. 3 feet per yard. 100 centimetres per meter ... which is similar to a yard.

I thought Canadians had to be fairly ambidextrous when it came to measurements. Construction materials are still imperial, measuring tapes and rulers are both ... food is in lbs and kg ... temperature is celcius on Canadian news and fahrenheit on US news ...
I'm not Canadian...Australian.

Only the older generation knows Imperial measurements here. I'm no spring chicken but metric was bought in just after I was born so I know nothing else.

Anyway I've got dyscalculia so it's pretty much all gobbeldy gook to me.

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  #1237  
Old 08-06-2012, 05:28 PM
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I wish we had something new to hash over. It's so frustrating how quiet LE, msm and other sources are. I know they have not much to share but we as the public who most have children of our own, I think deserves to know something. Even if it's just to know they are still working on the case.
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  #1238  
Old 08-06-2012, 05:28 PM
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Originally Posted by lishac23 View Post
I would imagine if someone living nearby didn't know much about it, that its not a very well "known" trail...unless you have been there...maybe a maintenance worker for the lift. I looked it up online and its privately owned (sure LE has looked into it already). Just thinking out loud trying to make peace with the opposing sides in my head. If we use maiden lane/arbutus ave as the route taken by the perp...if he/she/they took them from somewhere else and went in that way to dispose of their property, how would he/she/they get the bikes to the other side? LE has confirmed that the bikes didn't appear to have any damage, so we know they weren't thrown over. I think it would take too much of a risk of being seen to walk them to the open gate and put them down/against the fence....andthen walk back to his car. (all within the time frame of the jogger/cyclist seeing their bikes on the path)

IMO its more plausible that the perp would have snagged them on the path, walked them through the open gate towards his parked car and drove off with them.


I welcome all opposition to my theories...I appreciate perspectives/viewpoints I may have missed.
Bang on...exactly how I see it.

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  #1239  
Old 08-06-2012, 05:28 PM
GrainneDhu GrainneDhu is offline
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Originally Posted by otto View Post
The FBI said that the dogs tracked from the bikes to the lake. Brouseau said on the Nancy Grace show (transcripts posted upthread) that she watched the dogs track first one child, then the other, to the Maiden Lane area ... where the scent was then lost.
I believe you have your sources reversed.

Aunt TB said something ambiguous on Nancy Grace associating the dogs with the edge of the lake. I believe she meant to identify the particular stretch of fence where the lake is closest to the fence.

Other people have interpreted it to mean that the dogs actually tracked the girls to the edge of the water.

Sandy Breault said that the dogs found scent in the patch of woods that hides Maiden Lane.
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  #1240  
Old 08-06-2012, 05:30 PM
otto otto is offline
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Originally Posted by SapphireSteel View Post
I didn't claim it so I'm not looking for it. I'm going with TG's statement.

I've asked those who claimed it to provide a link but so far nothing.

I'm not saying he DIDN'T say it...I'd just like confirmation (even if it is only msm).

I have located the press release and posted the link. Hopefully that will answer any questions regarding whether the bikes were leaning against the fence when Abben arrived at the scene.
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  #1241  
Old 08-06-2012, 05:31 PM
Fukiyama Fukiyama is offline
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I think one thing that is important, especially with recent missing threads (as opposed to missing but not forgotten) like this one, is that we cite our facts as much as we can with links and whatnot. Now that we've entered this period of no law enforcement press conferences and the family gone radio silent, salient articles and interviews are fading into the background and we're trying to remember who said what where.

So I guess the point of this post is show your work. Then you can back yourself up if anyone should call you on your points.
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  #1242  
Old 08-06-2012, 05:33 PM
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Originally Posted by GrainneDhu View Post
I believe you have your sources reversed.

Aunt TB said something ambiguous on Nancy Grace associating the dogs with the edge of the lake. I believe she meant to identify the particular stretch of fence where the lake is closest to the fence.

Other people have interpreted it to mean that the dogs actually tracked the girls to the edge of the water.

Sandy Breault said that the dogs found scent in the patch of woods that hides Maiden Lane.
It has been reported by msm that they located their scent AT the bikes, and followed it TO the wooded area (AWAY from the lake). Dogs naturally follow scent from oldest to newest, so the bike scent was the oldest, the wooded area the newest.

To me, this implies that the girls were indeed on their bikes, on the bike path, and were lured/taken through the wooded area, to a car parked on the road.

The only person who said they followed it FROM the bikes TO the lake is MCM and TB.

I'm taking the msm reports.

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  #1243  
Old 08-06-2012, 05:34 PM
Copper Copper is offline
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Originally Posted by lishac23 View Post
I would imagine if someone living nearby didn't know much about it, that its not a very well "known" trail...unless you have been there...maybe a maintenance worker for the lift. I looked it up online and its privately owned (sure LE has looked into it already). Just thinking out loud trying to make peace with the opposing sides in my head. If we use maiden lane/arbutus ave as the route taken by the perp...if he/she/they took them from somewhere else and went in that way to dispose of their property, how would he/she/they get the bikes to the other side? LE has confirmed that the bikes didn't appear to have any damage, so we know they weren't thrown over. I think it would take too much of a risk of being seen to walk them to the open gate and put them down/against the fence....andthen walk back to his car. (all within the time frame of the jogger/cyclist seeing their bikes on the path)

IMO its more plausible that the perp would have snagged them on the path, walked them through the open gate towards his parked car and drove off with them.


I welcome all opposition to my theories...I appreciate perspectives/viewpoints I may have missed.
Thanks for your post. Made me go back and reevaluate... again. I'm not comfortable with the girls being grabbed at the gate. From the pictures, it seems like it would be way too hard to walk the girls between the fence and the lake to Maiden Lane or anywhere else. I don't think a paddle boat/peddle boat/whatever is involved simply because it adds another element for a perp to deal with. So if the girls are taken at the gate, the only way I can imagine is the perp walking them down the trail to Maiden Lane or somewhere else, which I think would be a heck of a lot more risky than a perp with a bike on a biketrail.
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  #1244  
Old 08-06-2012, 05:34 PM
otto otto is offline
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Originally Posted by GrainneDhu View Post
Ollipop mentioned the river in one of these threads. He said that along the stretch in Evansdale, there's a levee that is steep enough so that it would discourage casual exploration. He said he'd never seen either kids or adults on top of the levee.

LE did check the river and I am certain that if they were in the river, their bodies would have been found by now.
I'm referring to the river access that is 2 blocks from the Collins house, not 2 miles South across the highway. I'm wondering why the family didn't immediately think to look in areas closer to home, like parks and river pathways ... why drive 1.5 miles to Meyers Lake - unless someone knew that the girls were inclined to go to the lake, or were interested in going to Meyers Lake.
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  #1245  
Old 08-06-2012, 05:34 PM
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Originally Posted by SapphireSteel View Post
Who????

From the little bit I've seen on social sites BB is Aunt T's daughter. She's over 18 as far as I know so I'm hoping this is ok to share. Not bashing or even suspecting anybody, just trying to help w/the initials and puzzle pieces.
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  #1246  
Old 08-06-2012, 05:35 PM
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This is not a personal observation against a specific poster, but I do want to say that I sense some high tensions here. Let's all take a breath and walk a way for a minute and when we come back, try to remember why we are all here. It isnt about who is right or who is wrong, it is about these girls. I myself have become frustrated because after being on this site for a couple of weeks now, I feel like I am talking to someone with alzheimers. Hi, I'm Tom....10 seconds later....Hi, I'm Tom. Everything that is being discussed now has already been discussed multiple times through these 12 threads, but I keep quiet about my frustration of rehashing things because someone new might be the someone that figures this out. Breath...... We are all in this together.
I also share your frustrations with things being rehashed over and over again, and sometimes want to tell people to go to the first thread, read your way through to the current post, and then participate in the discussion. Having to provide links over and over again for the same article or map or transcript gets tiring. But as you say, we are all in this together and want to do whatever we can to help find Lyric and Elizabeth. Maybe someone new will be the one to see what we've overlooked, so I'll take your advice and breathe, relax, and refocus.
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  #1247  
Old 08-06-2012, 05:37 PM
GrainneDhu GrainneDhu is offline
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Originally Posted by shefner View Post
Let me tell ya....as a momma, this thing would drive me completely insane. I don't know if I could function at all. Where are these babies?
Both of those mothers have other children. I'm thinking that a lot of what is keeping them going is knowing that it is up to them to comfort those other children and provide stability in a very scary, stressful time.

As my ex-sil said once, you sign away your right to fall apart in a crisis when you have your first child. When you're single, it often doesn't matter so much in the larger picture if you get hysterical. But when you have kids, well, it is up to the parent to stay strong for the children and show them how to survive such a time emotionally intact.
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  #1248  
Old 08-06-2012, 05:39 PM
otto otto is offline
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Originally Posted by lishac23 View Post
I would imagine if someone living nearby didn't know much about it, that its not a very well "known" trail...unless you have been there...maybe a maintenance worker for the lift. I looked it up online and its privately owned (sure LE has looked into it already). Just thinking out loud trying to make peace with the opposing sides in my head. If we use maiden lane/arbutus ave as the route taken by the perp...if he/she/they took them from somewhere else and went in that way to dispose of their property, how would he/she/they get the bikes to the other side? LE has confirmed that the bikes didn't appear to have any damage, so we know they weren't thrown over. I think it would take too much of a risk of being seen to walk them to the open gate and put them down/against the fence....andthen walk back to his car. (all within the time frame of the jogger/cyclist seeing their bikes on the path)

IMO its more plausible that the perp would have snagged them on the path, walked them through the open gate towards his parked car and drove off with them.


I welcome all opposition to my theories...I appreciate perspectives/viewpoints I may have missed.
A vehicle could drive past the Sewer Lift Station down Maiden Lane. It is then possible to walk out of the treed area (which is only a couple of acres in total) west towards the gate (about 300 feet). It is possible to walk along the lake side of the fence to the gate, which was unlocked, put the bikes through the gate, walk back along the lakeside of the fence, get back into the vehicle and disappear with the girls.
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  #1249  
Old 08-06-2012, 05:40 PM
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I think one thing that is important, especially with recent missing threads (as opposed to missing but not forgotten) like this one, is that we cite our facts as much as we can with links and whatnot. Now that we've entered this period of no law enforcement press conferences and the family gone radio silent, salient articles and interviews are fading into the background and we're trying to remember who said what where.

So I guess the point of this post is show your work. Then you can back yourself up if anyone should call you on your points.
I agree, and I think most posters tend to do that as a habit anyway. the problem I have noted arising in these new/very active missing persons cases is that after several weeks have passed and we have all speculated and theorized this or that, we tend to forget that there are new folks coming in, or folks who have been absent for a stretch. When those people ask for a link or want to debate something others feel has already been discussed to death, there is a certain level of frustration (ie how many danged times am I going to have to go back, locate links to statements or stories that were already done to death weeks ago and pull them forward and re-link them? Really? Are we going to debate the meaning of this statement again? etc).

I can see both sides of the coin and feel the frustration of all. You are right, though. If someone is going to state something as fact then they should not hesitate to add a link.
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  #1250  
Old 08-06-2012, 05:40 PM
GrainneDhu GrainneDhu is offline
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Originally Posted by otto View Post
I was originally thinking that too ... why risk staging the bikes after abducting the children? It seemed like adding an unnecessary risk factor, but it could have been done to obscure facts and perplex investigators. It certainly bought the perp(s) time, since it was a week before it was officially considered to be an abduction. For example, if the girls were abducted 3 blocks away but the bikes were at the lake, police would not be looking at closed circuit TV where the girls were abducted ... they may never discover where they were abducted. That really helps the perp in terms of getting away with the abduction. If the bikes were staged, it suggests a methodical perp that knows the area.
It seems clear, though, that LE was working several lines of investigation from the very beginning.

If LE had been convinced it was a drowning, why did they bring in the FBI so fast? Three children went into the Iowa River at Marshalltown on 4 July and the FBI wasn't called in; everyone knew the children had drowned.

If the bikes were staged (and I'm not at all convinced they were), then the perp may have thought it bought them time... but it didn't really.
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