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JonBenet Ramsey What really happened to 6 year old JonBenet? Someone is getting away with murder. All information posted on this site is gained through published documentation on this case. It is strictly opinion only.


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  #476  
Old 06-15-2010, 01:21 AM
WHITEFANG WHITEFANG is offline
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Originally Posted by DeeDee249 View Post
That was a handy link, re the sweater questions. The sweater shown on JB's bed with the hood I believe is the one Patsy mentioned as lending to LHP's daughter.
Not having luck zeroing in on that sweater as the one given to Ariana although I see the one on the bed.

Was the jacket/sweater wool?
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  #477  
Old 06-15-2010, 03:32 AM
MurriFlower MurriFlower is offline
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That was a handy link, re the sweater questions. The sweater shown on JB's bed with the hood I believe is the one Patsy mentioned as lending to LHP's daughter.
You wouldn't think a 6yo's clothes would fit a 12yo.
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  #478  
Old 06-15-2010, 03:49 AM
MurriFlower MurriFlower is offline
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I don't think it was. Patsy's "sweater" was really a fleece jacket. The sweater she loaned Arianna was more of a traditional sweater. I hope you are not inferring you suspect LHP's young daughter of killing JB?
This is Patsy's jacket/coat/sweater:

24 Q. It is a coat that you would

25 dry-clean, though?

0163

1 A. I am not so sure about that. I

2 think, I think it is able to be thrown in

3 the washing machine.

4 MR. KANE: I believe it was made

5 of acrylic, if that helps.

6 THE WITNESS: Yeah.

7 MR. WOOD: You all gotta decide,

8 he says wool, you say acrylic.

9 MR. LEVIN: It was acrylic.

10 MR. WOOD: It ought to say

1 dry-cleaning only on it, if it is, or if it

12 doesn't, sometimes it'll get washed. Do you

13 know for a fact, that is the key, do you

14 know whether you dry cleaned it or washed it

15 as you sit here today, Patsy?

16 THE WITNESS: No, I don't.
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  #479  
Old 06-15-2010, 05:29 AM
MurriFlower MurriFlower is offline
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Originally Posted by WHITEFANG View Post
Not having luck zeroing in on that sweater as the one given to Ariana although I see the one on the bed.

Was the jacket/sweater wool?
No, I can't find any reference to it in the interviews on ACR. Perhaps it was on a TV or radio interview. This is all it says on ACR

Patsy gave my daughter a Christmas sweater and a vest. Even lent her a pair of her shoes. At the last minute, Patsy wrote a little verse about Ariana for Santa to read.

Ariana was 12yo and looked quite a big girl in the picture on ACR, so I'd reckon that she more than likely wore PR's rather than JBR's clothes and shoes.
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  #480  
Old 06-15-2010, 09:46 AM
WHITEFANG WHITEFANG is offline
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You won't find it easy now, it's only fair.

Well, you went where I was going. And J was a tiny girl, at that, wasn't she?

Still need to know the material it was made from. For now, the uniqueness factor doesn't seem like such a difficult hurdle.

LHP is a troubling figure to me. Nasty thing. Very nasty. IMO. To discuss the personal garbage as she does, and with such ease, such nonchalance, is freaky; as though she was discussing gardening techniques.

She had access. She had knowledge galore of the place and their habits. She knew the alarm system wasn't armed. Her writing style was notably similar to P's. She could have known about the $118,000. She knew everything else! She was the first person P told the cops to check. She looks like a pretty hefty woman, capable of wielding an object with enough force to devastate hard bone with a massive 8 and 1/2 inch sliced-all-the-way-through crack and a golf ball size punch-out. Yep. She had that kind of power, IMO.

And there is an indescribable, weird dynamic at play between P and her that troubles me. It has something to do with her willingness to ask for a loan for two thousand dollars while she's calling off from work, the accusations that P beat J in the bathroom, that P needed her. I sense jealousy, rageful, entitled to, fantasy prone-bordering on psychosis- self-importance. IMO.

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Why do you suppose you remembered just such a cord? Any idea? Not only that, but you remembered it was wrapped in just such a way, too. Incredibly, you remembered seeing those things like that right next to where her body was found, in a room that no stranger could find?
My opinions only.

Last edited by WHITEFANG; 06-15-2010 at 10:13 AM.
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  #481  
Old 06-15-2010, 10:09 AM
WHITEFANG WHITEFANG is offline
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He was willing to give to you, you didn't care.

Love is an all important, critical piece of this drama, too, no matter what anyone says, IMO. A stranger doesn't have the compelling emotional connection to overcome like a parent, like these parents. It can't be dismissed simply because it might interfere with one's objectivity. Love should present an enormous, ocean-size objection when we evaluate a crime like this.
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  #482  
Old 06-15-2010, 10:28 AM
WHITEFANG WHITEFANG is offline
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No, I'll stop you here. The cord wasn't sourced to the house. The only way LHP would have known about it is if she was the one to buy it and remember, the killer took it with him.
She knew or said she did. Another facet of the clues that reduces the number of suspects, if what you say is true.
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  #483  
Old 06-15-2010, 11:39 AM
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A. I am not so sure about that. I 2 think, I think it is able to be thrown in 3 the washing machine. 4 MR. KANE: I believe it was made 5 of acrylic, if that helps. 6 THE WITNESS: Yeah. 7 MR. WOOD: You all gotta decide, 8 he says wool, you say acrylic. 9 MR. LEVIN: It was acrylic. 10 MR. WOOD: It ought to say 1 dry-cleaning only on it, if it is, or if it 12 doesn't, sometimes it'll get washed. Do you 13 know for a fact, that is the key, do you 14 know whether you dry cleaned it or washed it 15 as you sit here today, Patsy? 16 THE WITNESS: No, I don't.
What is the purpose of allowing P to be uncertain in this deposition? Is this part of the rx, to appear wishy-washy? Or did she go off rx here.
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  #484  
Old 06-15-2010, 04:48 PM
DeeDee249 DeeDee249 is offline
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You wouldn't think a 6yo's clothes would fit a 12yo.
It was Patsy's own sweater she lent to LHP's daughter, and a woman's sweater would fit a 12-year old reasonably well enough. Not known what the fiber of that sweater was- actually most ladies' sweaters I buy are either acrylic or heavy cotton knit. I never buy wool because it is so uncomfortable. But I don't think any one ever asked Patsy about the fiber of that particular sweater.
As far as Patsy's jacket- the fleece was acrylic. Most women have seen or owned a fabric of this type for cold weather. I myself had a similar-sounding fleece jacket from Talbots. You could wear it alone as a sweater or layer a thin shirt under it and wear it as a jacket. It was machine washable. The closest description would be a polarfleece, such as is old in Old Navy every winter.
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  #485  
Old 06-15-2010, 05:00 PM
DeeDee249 DeeDee249 is offline
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MurriFlower



What is the purpose of allowing P to be uncertain in this deposition? Is this part of the rx, to appear wishy-washy? Or did she go off rx here.
Patsy was "allowed to be uncertain" about a lot of things. Part of the defense plan was no doubt to have the interviews take place so long after the crime that saying "I don't remember" would almost be a given.
But as far as Patsy's jacket - let me tell you something. Every woman knows what she has in her closet and we know exactly whether a garment should be washed or dry cleaned. Patsy saying she didn't know is Patsy's way of covering her a$$ as far as the fabric content. If the fibers were wool, she can say they weren't from her jacket because she washed her jacket. If the fibers were acrylic, she can say they weren't from her jacket because she dry cleaned the jacket. Bottom line- it WAS her jacket the fibers were tested against and found to match, regardless of what the jacket was made of. And regardless of how many of these jackets exist in the universe, planet, country, state and city of Boulder, THOSE jackets were not worn the day JB died and in the house she died in. But the one owned by Patsy meets both those criteria.
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Last edited by DeeDee249; 06-15-2010 at 07:05 PM.
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  #486  
Old 06-15-2010, 06:42 PM
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Originally Posted by WHITEFANG View Post
Love is an all important, critical piece of this drama, too, no matter what anyone says, IMO. A stranger doesn't have the compelling emotional connection to overcome like a parent, like these parents. It can't be dismissed simply because it might interfere with one's objectivity. Love should present an enormous, ocean-size objection when we evaluate a crime like this.
Or an enormous corroboration.
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  #487  
Old 06-15-2010, 07:16 PM
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Originally Posted by DeeDee249 View Post
Patsy was "allowed to be uncertain" about a lot of things. Part of the defense plan was no doubt to have the interviews take place so long after the crime that saying "I don't remember" would almost be a given.
But as far as Patsy's jacket - let me tell you something. Every woman knows what she has in her closet and we know exactly whether a garment should be washed or dry cleaned. Patsy saying she didn't know is Patsy's way of covering her a$$ as far as the fabric content. If the fibers were wool, she can say they weren't from her jacket because she washed her jacket. If the fibers were acrylic, she can say they weren't from her jacket because she dry cleaned the jacket. Bottom line- it WAS her jacket the fibers were tested against and found to match, regardless of what the jacket was made of. And regardless of how many of these jackets exist in the universe, planet, country, state and city of Boulder, THOSE jackets were not worn the day JB died and in the house she died in. But the one owned by Patsy meets both those criteria.
Twelve months after JBR's death, they thought "oh, best get the clothes the parents were wearing that day" so we can then say there was fiber from them on the body. Oh, did you wash them? Or dry clean them? Have you worn them since? Pllleeeeaaassssseeeee!!!!
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  #488  
Old 06-15-2010, 07:18 PM
DeeDee249 DeeDee249 is offline
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Twelve months after JBR's death, they thought "oh, best get the clothes the parents were wearing that day" so we can then say there was fiber from them on the body. Oh, did you wash them? Or dry clean them? Have you worn them since? Pllleeeeaaassssseeeee!!!!
Trouble is, they didn't just SAY the fibers were on the body. They WERE on the body. And paint tote.
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  #489  
Old 06-15-2010, 07:37 PM
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Trouble is, they didn't just SAY the fibers were on the body. They WERE on the body. And paint tote.
Well, they said during an interview that there was a report that 'said' fibers from their clothes were found. The report itself hasn't been sighted by anyone on this forum nor by the investigaters that did the interviews. So, we have only evidence of four (4) fibers found on the tape that have been given in evidence and found to be 'consistent' with the fibers from the jacket PR wore (that they didn't ask for until 12 months later). Nothing on the tote or in the cord for that matter.
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  #490  
Old 06-15-2010, 08:16 PM
WHITEFANG WHITEFANG is offline
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Originally Posted by DeeDee249 View Post
Patsy was "allowed to be uncertain" about a lot of things. Part of the defense plan was no doubt to have the interviews take place so long after the crime that saying "I don't remember" would almost be a given.
But as far as Patsy's jacket - let me tell you something. Every woman knows what she has in her closet and we know exactly whether a garment should be washed or dry cleaned.
Not Patsy, IMO. Her domestic help took care of those kinds of things.

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Patsy saying she didn't know is Patsy's way of covering her a$$ as far as the fabric content.
Come on now.

Quote:
If the fibers were wool, she can say they weren't from her jacket because she washed her jacket. If the fibers were acrylic, she can say they weren't from her jacket because she dry cleaned the jacket. Bottom line- it WAS her jacket the fibers were tested against and found to match, regardless of what the jacket was made of. And regardless of how many of these jackets exist in the universe, planet, country, state and city of Boulder, THOSE jackets were not worn the day JB died and in the house she died in. But the one owned by Patsy meets both those criteria.
A zillion other products, made of the same fibers, may have found their way to her hair or neck as her hair was caught in the garrote and dug into her little neck. Could have been from the intruder's scarf, or his sweater, or his wife's sweater.

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  #491  
Old 06-15-2010, 08:16 PM
DeeDee249 DeeDee249 is offline
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Well- that is 4 fibers that DO match Patsy's jacket found in a place exclusive to the crime (should be even more telling to those who believe the tape wasn't from the home).
As far as the other places- I believe LE when they say these fibers were also found in the garrote knot and paint tote.
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  #492  
Old 06-15-2010, 08:21 PM
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* •Handwriting samples were given by John (December 26, 28, January 5, 1997); Patsy (December 28, January 4, 1997, February 28, April 12, May 20), and Burke (December 28).
* Police questioned them both on December 27 and John again on December 28. Officers were with the Ramseys 24 hours a day from 6 a.m. December 26, the day JonBenet's body was found, through 2 p.m. December 29, when the Ramseys left for the funeral in Atlanta.
* Police questioned Burke Ramsey on December 26. The conversation was tape-recorded without either parent present and without parental consent. A police psychologist interviewed Burke on January 6. Burke was interviewed again, over three days, in May 1998.
* After the Ramseys returned from JonBenet's funeral in Atlanta, their attorneys offered to make them available for a joint interview January 18, 1997. The police declined this offer and stated in writing that such an interview would not "be helpful" because "the time for interviewing John and Patsy as witnesses who could provide critical information that would be helpful in the initial stages of our investigation has passed."
* The police countered with an offer that the Ramseys come to the police station at 6 p.m. on a Friday night and subject themselves to an open-ended interrogation. That suggestion was rejected, in part because of the written statement above.
* Patsy and John gave hair and blood samples, as well as fingerprints, immediately when the police requested them; so did all other members of the family. In February 1997, both Patsy and John voluntarily gave pubic hair samples.
* Early in the investigation, the Ramseys offered to let the police search both of their houses, John's office, their cars and his airplane hangar, without a search warrant.
* On April 11, 1997, John and Patsy Ramsey, with their attorneys, met with Peter Hofstrom of the DA's office and Tom Wickman of the Boulder Police Department. This meeting was held at Mr. Hofstrom's and Detective Wickman's request. An apology was given for the way the family had been treated. The Ramseys were asked to give additional interviews and continue their previous cooperation. John accepted their apology and agreed to move forward. No conditions were placed on the manner in which the interviews would be conducted.
* On April 12, 1997, the Ramseys agreed to let authorities search their house again without a warrant; agreed to destructive testing of walls located at their home; agreed to identify Patsy Ramsey's prior writings; and agreed to make themselves available for separate interviews on April 23. The Ramseys also agreed to answer any questions put to them. On April 22, the Boulder police canceled the interviews.
* The Ramseys agreed to be interrogated by the Boulder police and district attorney's office on April 30, 1997. These interviews lasted two hours (John) and six hours (Patsy).
* They were interrogated by the district attorney's office for three full days each in June 1998. No additional interviews were requested.
* They signed more than 100 releases for information requested by the police, ranging from medical records to credit card records and even videotape rental records. The Ramseys provided all evidence and information requested by the police.
* Burke Ramsey, John Andrew Ramsey and Melinda Ramsey Long all were subpoenaed and testified before the grand jury.
* John and Patsy Ramsey offered to testify before the grand jury, but were never subpoenaed. The Ramseys asked to meet with the governor and his advisory council. The request went unanswered.

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Old 06-15-2010, 08:45 PM
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Or an enormous corroboration.


Or not.
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  #494  
Old 06-15-2010, 11:11 PM
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Or not.
Either way, I think it bears examination.
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Old 06-16-2010, 02:02 AM
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Well- that is 4 fibers that DO match Patsy's jacket found in a place exclusive to the crime (should be even more telling to those who believe the tape wasn't from the home).
As far as the other places- I believe LE when they say these fibers were also found in the garrote knot and paint tote.
You know, it wouldn't surprise me in the least if she gave them a different sweater to the one she was wearing that day, just to see what would happen! Like Fang says, it wouldn't make the slightest bit of difference, they would still have been found guilty LOL.
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Old 06-16-2010, 11:20 AM
DeeDee249 DeeDee249 is offline
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You know, it wouldn't surprise me in the least if she gave them a different sweater to the one she was wearing that day, just to see what would happen! Like Fang says, it wouldn't make the slightest bit of difference, they would still have been found guilty LOL.
I don't think so, I really don't. The defense would always have the right to examine the evidence. Suffice it to say that whatever jacket she gave them was a match, and so was worn during the time the crime occurred. Photos prove what she was wearing that day, and investigators would have known if this was a different jacket. If it was the IDENTICAL, but different, jacket, there is simply no reason for Patsy to have done this, with the exception of her having destroyed the original. As was said, her jacket was not the only jacket in existence like it, but the chances of ANOTHER identical jacket having been worn by an intruder (especially a SFF or military one, as you seem to favor) in the same place and on the same day a Patsy is not in the realm of a reasonable person's possibility.
Before you point out that there is always a possibility that some murderous, foreign military person did wear the same thing that day, as it was festive enough for the holiday, let me say that the chances of such a person also happening to be in the R home at the same time Patsy was also wearing the same thing sounds pretty silly, doesn't it?
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Old 06-16-2010, 06:44 PM
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I don't think so, I really don't. The defense would always have the right to examine the evidence. Suffice it to say that whatever jacket she gave them was a match, and so was worn during the time the crime occurred. Photos prove what she was wearing that day, and investigators would have known if this was a different jacket. If it was the IDENTICAL, but different, jacket, there is simply no reason for Patsy to have done this, with the exception of her having destroyed the original. As was said, her jacket was not the only jacket in existence like it, but the chances of ANOTHER identical jacket having been worn by an intruder (especially a SFF or military one, as you seem to favor) in the same place and on the same day a Patsy is not in the realm of a reasonable person's possibility.
Before you point out that there is always a possibility that some murderous, foreign military person did wear the same thing that day, as it was festive enough for the holiday, let me say that the chances of such a person also happening to be in the R home at the same time Patsy was also wearing the same thing sounds pretty silly, doesn't it?
Just re-reading the interview and the section about the jacket/coat/sweater, I don't think the LE had the faintest idea which jacket she wore that day and if the one she gave them was the correct one. Think of this for a minute, it's 12 months later when they ask for it. You have several red/grey/black jacket/coat/sweaters in your closet. You chose the one you think was the one you were wearing that day and give it to the investigators. They find fibers 'consistent' with that jacket at the crime scene and on the body. It goes to court. The defence asks the LE to establish if that was the jacket/coat/sweater she was wearing that day. They say, "well, that's what she told us". LOL. What a joke. So she says, "oh, I made a mistake, that was PW's jacket I gave them by mistake, they are so much alike and I must have brought it home from her house by accident". Poof!! No more fiber evidence.
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Old 06-16-2010, 09:48 PM
WHITEFANG WHITEFANG is offline
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Just re-reading the interview and the section about the jacket/coat/sweater, I don't think the LE had the faintest idea which jacket she wore that day and if the one she gave them was the correct one. Think of this for a minute, it's 12 months later when they ask for it. You have several red/grey/black jacket/coat/sweaters in your closet. You chose the one you think was the one you were wearing that day and give it to the investigators. They find fibers 'consistent' with that jacket at the crime scene and on the body. It goes to court. The defence asks the LE to establish if that was the jacket/coat/sweater she was wearing that day. They say, "well, that's what she told us". LOL. What a joke. So she says, "oh, I made a mistake, that was PW's jacket I gave them by mistake, they are so much alike and I must have brought it home from her house by accident". Poof!! No more fiber evidence.
Exactly the kind of fellas I would want to take my poly. You?
How many BPD does it take to .....? Where's Our Gang's Spanky and Alfalfa, Clouseau, Agent Smart when you need them?

These boys didn't even attempt a chain of custody? How could they? Why didn't their lawyers tell Pat to clean out and burn the contents of her closet, since they were nothing but conniving thugs? Why didn't they stage a towering inferno to consume their house, if their survival instincts led them to kill their child in the first place? That they would turn over "evidence" that could show they were present, even involved directly, during her murder, voluntarily, when they could avoid doing so simply and without raising suspicion, proves? they're guilty? I guess.
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Old 06-16-2010, 10:05 PM
DeeDee249 DeeDee249 is offline
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Just re-reading the interview and the section about the jacket/coat/sweater, I don't think the LE had the faintest idea which jacket she wore that day and if the one she gave them was the correct one. Think of this for a minute, it's 12 months later when they ask for it. You have several red/grey/black jacket/coat/sweaters in your closet. You chose the one you think was the one you were wearing that day and give it to the investigators. They find fibers 'consistent' with that jacket at the crime scene and on the body. It goes to court. The defence asks the LE to establish if that was the jacket/coat/sweater she was wearing that day. They say, "well, that's what she told us". LOL. What a joke. So she says, "oh, I made a mistake, that was PW's jacket I gave them by mistake, they are so much alike and I must have brought it home from her house by accident". Poof!! No more fiber evidence.
Except PW didn't have the SAME jacket. She had a similar one, which PW has not mentioned not being able to find or having been lent to Patsy. Besides, there is no need for Patsy to guess which jacket she wore. There are photos to show it.
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Old 06-17-2010, 12:35 AM
WHITEFANG WHITEFANG is offline
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Except PW didn't have the SAME jacket. She had a similar one, which PW has not mentioned not being able to find or having been lent to Patsy. Besides, there is no need for Patsy to guess which jacket she wore. There are photos to show it.


She could have destroyed it.
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