Sounds

OP's entire defense rests on one condition: The only screaming that anybody head was OP's, and it occurred AFTER the gunshots. If RS made any sounds OP is guilty of premeditated murder.

Here are the sounds according to OP:

• Bathroom window opening,
• Somebody in the bathroom,
• OP yelling to RS to call police,
• OP yelling to intruder to leave,
• 4 gun shots,
• OP yelling to RS to call police,
• OP screaming out of balcony for help,
• Cricket bat hitting bathroom door.

For OP's defense to work only the last two sounds could have been heard by any of the four ear-witnesses.


Here are the sounds according to witnesses:

• woman screaming in fear,
• man and woman arguing,
• gun shots,
• Man screaming help,
• woman screaming for help,
• OP saying everything is fine,
• OP crying over phone

For OP's story to make sense, the witnesses must be mistaken about:

• woman screaming in fear,
• man and woman arguing,
• gun shots,
• Man screaming help,
• woman screaming for help,
• OP saying everything is fine,
• OP crying over phone

Finally, for OP's version to be believable, a remarkable coincidence must HAVE occured:

The ear witnesses must have made two mistakes:

1) they must have mistaken the cricket bat hitting the door for gunshots, and
2) they must have mistaken OPs screams for help with a woman's.

What's remarkable about this is the witnesses must have mistakenly heard sounds (4 gunshots) that actually were made prior to the witnesses mistakenly hearing them!

What are the odds?

That's like saying the witnesses thought they saw Britney Spears walking down the street, but it was actually Lindsay Lohan. And coincidentally Britney Spears just walked down the street 3 minutes before.

Is that a reasonable coincidence?

In other words, OP unloaded four gun shots, but according to OP all the witnesses who claimed to hear those gunshots were mistaken. They really didn't hear gunshots, even though just moments before there were actual gunshots to be heard.

Now combine that with a woman being shot dead who according to OP didn't make one sound. But the same witnesses who didn't hear the four gunshots that actually happened also were mistaken about hearing a woman screaming.

Four witnesses, all mistaken about two things:

• Hearing gunshots that actually did occur, and
• hearing a woman screaming the same night a woman is shot to death in OP's house.

But that's not all...

ALL four witnesses ALL made the exact same mistakes! All didn't really hear the gunshots that actually occurred, and all heard a woman scream the night a woman was found shot to death in OP's house.

In summary, for OP's defense to work, this is what had to happen:

1. RS goes to pee, doesn't speak or call out
2. OP kill her, shooting gun four times,
3. Nobody hears gunshots,
4. Everybody hears OP scream and thinks it's a woman,
5. OP hits door with cricket bat,
6. Everybody thinks bat hitting door is the same sound, the 4 gunshots, that occurred when OP actually did kill RS.

Is this reasonable? Nobody heard the actual gun shots that really occurred, but thought they heard them?

:bump:

Welcome, nastasya!

This is a good discussion topic. We need some links, though.



:welcome5:

ETA:
Witness cries at Pistorius trial, says she remembers terrified screams
Published March 04, 2014Associated Press

Death screams or cry for help from Pistorius?
Werner Swart | 10 March, 2014 09:16

Oscar Pistorius murder trial: Witness tells of 'bloodcurdling screams'
By Robyn Dixon
March 3, 2014, 1:37 p.m.

Pistorius Trial Day 1 Live Transcript
(Michell Burger's testimony begins near bottom of p. 2)

Pistorius Trial Day 2 Live Transcript
M. Burger, Mrs. VanDer Merwe, Mr. Johnson

Pistorius Trial Day 3 Live Transcipt
Mr. Johnson

Pistorius Trial Day 4 Live Transcript
Mr. Johnson, Mr. Stipp

Also, I have wondered if there aren't more "ear witnesses" to come? Per one witness - I think it was the doctor - there were a lot of lights on at the house next door to OP's house. We have heard nothing from anyone who lives there.

I have also wondered why the Prosecutor has not specifically asked any of the ear witnesses if they heard dogs barking that night. Absence of any barking by OP's dogs who were out in his yard would be relevant, I think.

According to OP's explanation of events:

• Ear-witnesses mistakenly heard a woman scream, and coincidentally a woman was killed moments earlier, but the witnesses never heard the woman.
• Ear-witnesses mistakenly heard 4 gunshots, and coincidentally the woman was killed by 4 gunshots, but the witnesses never heard the gunshots, and
• Ear-witnesses mistakenly thought the time they heard the screams and the gunshots was outside of the 2 minute window when OP screamed out the balcony and bashed the door with the cricket bat.

To believe OP's defense, you would have to believe that the ear-witnesses mis-heard sounds that describe exactly what actually happened, but didn't actually hear the actual sounds of RS being killed, AND heard these sounds after RS was killed, but mistakenly said they heard the sounds at the exact time OP said he killed RS.

OP claims the witnesses heard different sounds (OP screaming and using the cricket bat) AND they heard those sounds immediately after the real sounds of a woman being killed that they didn't hear.

OP's entire defense is that he killed a woman then 4 witnesses heard HIM screaming like a woman who was in an argument then was shot and killed.

AlwaysShocked said:

Also, I have wondered if there aren't more "ear witnesses" to come? Per one witness - I think it was the doctor - there were a lot of lights on at the house next door to OP's house. We have heard nothing from anyone who lives there.

I have also wondered why the Prosecutor has not specifically asked any of the ear witnesses if they heard dogs barking that night. Absence of any barking by OP's dogs who were out in his yard would be relevant, I think.

Click to expand...

That's a good point about the dogs. I've been curious about how they behaved through all of the commotion. It must have been terribly disturbing for them. You'd think Roux would have made a point of establishing that the dogs were barking because it might have interfered with the ear witnesses hearing. Surely that's yet to come.

nastasya said:

According to OP's explanation of events:

• Ear-witnesses mistakenly heard a woman scream, and coincidentally a woman was killed moments earlier, but the witnesses never heard the woman.
• Ear-witnesses mistakenly heard 4 gunshots, and coincidentally the woman was killed by 4 gunshots, but the witnesses never heard the gunshots, and
• Ear-witnesses mistakenly thought the time they heard the screams and the gunshots was outside of the 2 minute window when OP screamed out the balcony and bashed the door with the cricket bat.

To believe OP's defense, you would have to believe that the ear-witnesses mis-heard sounds that describe exactly what actually happened, but didn't actually hear the actual sounds of RS being killed, AND heard these sounds after RS was killed, but mistakenly said they heard the sounds at the exact time OP said he killed RS.

OP claims the witnesses heard different sounds (OP screaming and using the cricket bat) AND they heard those sounds immediately after the real sounds of a woman being killed that they didn't hear.

OP's entire defense is that he killed a woman then 4 witnesses heard HIM screaming like a woman who was in an argument then was shot and killed.

Click to expand...

I'd say you hit that old nail squarely on the head.

I'm wondering what OP's gardener might have heard? I think Col Van Rensburg said Friday he lived in a building just off to the right of the house, within the garden?

Not only that but in court there were only two bat marks on the door. So the ear witnesses heard two cricket bat hits but thought it was 4. Also one neighbor heard loud arguing. Were OPs calls for help confused with loud arguing?

nastasya said:

OP's entire defense rests on one condition: The only screaming that anybody head was OP's, and it occurred AFTER the gunshots. If RS made any sounds OP is guilty of premeditated murder.

Here are the sounds according to OP:

• Bathroom window opening,
• Somebody in the bathroom,
• OP yelling to RS to call police,
• OP yelling to intruder to leave,
• 4 gun shots,
• OP yelling to RS to call police,
• OP screaming out of balcony for help,
• Cricket bat hitting bathroom door.

For OP's defense to work only the last two sounds could have been heard by any of the four ear-witnesses.


Here are the sounds according to witnesses:

• woman screaming in fear,
• man and woman arguing,
• gun shots,
• Man screaming help,
• woman screaming for help,
• OP saying everything is fine,
• OP crying over phone

For OP's story to make sense, the witnesses must be mistaken about:

• woman screaming in fear,
• man and woman arguing,
• gun shots,
• Man screaming help,
• woman screaming for help,
• OP saying everything is fine,
• OP crying over phone

Finally, for OP's version to be believable, a remarkable coincidence must HAVE occured:

The ear witnesses must have made two mistakes:

1) they must have mistaken the cricket bat hitting the door for gunshots, and
2) they must have mistaken OPs screams for help with a woman's.

What's remarkable about this is the witnesses must have mistakenly heard sounds (4 gunshots) that actually were made prior to the witnesses mistakenly hearing them!

What are the odds?

That's like saying the witnesses thought they saw Britney Spears walking down the street, but it was actually Lindsay Lohan. And coincidentally Britney Spears just walked down the street 3 minutes before.

Is that a reasonable coincidence?

In other words, OP unloaded four gun shots, but according to OP all the witnesses who claimed to hear those gunshots were mistaken. They really didn't hear gunshots, even though just moments before there were actual gunshots to be heard.

Now combine that with a woman being shot dead who according to OP didn't make one sound. But the same witnesses who didn't hear the four gunshots that actually happened also were mistaken about hearing a woman screaming.

Four witnesses, all mistaken about two things:

• Hearing gunshots that actually did occur, and
• hearing a woman screaming the same night a woman is shot to death in OP's house.

But that's not all...

ALL four witnesses ALL made the exact same mistakes! All didn't really hear the gunshots that actually occurred, and all heard a woman scream the night a woman was found shot to death in OP's house.

In summary, for OP's defense to work, this is what had to happen:

1. RS goes to pee, doesn't speak or call out
2. OP kill her, shooting gun four times,
3. Nobody hears gunshots,
4. Everybody hears OP scream and thinks it's a woman,
5. OP hits door with cricket bat,
6. Everybody thinks bat hitting door is the same sound, the 4 gunshots, that occurred when OP actually did kill RS.

Is this reasonable? Nobody heard the actual gun shots that really occurred, but thought they heard them?

Click to expand...

:goodpost:

According to OP's explanation of events:

• Ear-witnesses mistakenly heard a woman scream, and coincidentally a woman was killed moments earlier, but the witnesses never heard the woman.
• Ear-witnesses mistakenly heard 4 gunshots, and coincidentally the woman was killed by 4 gunshots, but the witnesses never heard the gunshots, and
• Ear-witnesses mistakenly thought the time they heard the screams and the gunshots was outside of the 2 minute window when OP screamed out the balcony and bashed the door with the cricket bat.

To believe OP's defense, you would have to believe that the ear-witnesses mis-heard sounds that describe exactly what actually happened, but didn't actually hear the actual sounds of RS being killed, AND heard these sounds after RS was killed, but mistakenly said they heard the sounds at the exact time OP said he killed RS.

OP claims the witnesses heard different sounds (OP screaming and using the cricket bat) AND they heard those sounds immediately after the real sounds of a woman being killed that they didn't hear.

OP's entire defense is that he killed a woman then 4 witnesses heard HIM screaming like a woman who was in an argument then was shot and killed.

Click to expand...

I wish this were a jury trial and you were the foreperson.

Great post!


Roux is an excellent defense attorney. He's good and spending a ton of effort trying to confuse the issues in an attempt to cast doubt. <insert a little smoke & a few mirrors> You'd be Roux's nightmare juror.


:welcome: nastasya! Glad you joined us here in the discussion.

TorisMom003 said:

BBM

The bolded part is an assumption, not a fact. How exactly was there screaming that followed the gunshots?

Click to expand...

It's not an assumption - it is the only logical inference that can be drawn from the evidence.

Oscar was screaming after the gunshots, according to his bail affidavit and his plea statement. Unless it is somehow proven conclusively that it wasn't Oscar screaming then his version is all we have. What would have been good evidence for the State is if they had someone who was familiar with Reeva's voice and had heard her scream and could definitively testify that it was Reeva screaming after the first shots that Stipp heard around 3:10 a.m. - but that would seem to be an impossibility since Reeva would have been completely incapacitated after the shots.

More than 1 witness heard fighting and woman screaming. The doctor heard INTERMIXED female and male voice fighting and woman's blood curdling screams! And they all heard the gun shots - at the same time!

minor4th said:

Here's the problem with that though - what Burger heard were the sounds of the cricket bat breaking the door and not the gunshots - she did not hear the gunshots that Stipp heard; she was only awakened by the screaming that followed the gunshots.
I believe the state has said there were only 2 or 3 strikes by the cricket bat. In Burger's first statements to police in March 2013, she did not say she heard 4 shots (bang, pause, bang, bang, bang) - in her March 2013 she only heard "2 or 3" "shots." The 4 shots and sequence was an addition to her statement that appeared for the first time when she took the stand to testify.

The State has made no allegation that OP used the cricket bat before the gunshots, and in fact their own experts have concluded that the 4 gunshots happened before the cricket bat hit the door.

Click to expand...

that is an illogical leap into the realms of fantasy.

the State has testified to only 2 cricket bat whacks.. = 2 cricket bat sounds.

Mrs Burger has testified to hearing 4 shots.. it was her husband, Mr Johnson who believes he heard 4, or possibly 5.. he wasn't counting the shots , his concentration was on where they came from. Mrs Burger WAS counting the shots..

to leap into Mrs Burger only hearing cricket bat sounds. that means that cricket bat sounds are louder than gunshot sounds. this is illogical. the cricket bat is made of willow, the door panel is made of Meranti wood a sound absorbent wood, its not like oak on mahogany.

Then the illogical leap is made that Oscar managed to whack the bat exactly the same times as he fired. = 4.. then he managed to do that in exactly the same sequence as the gunfire..

Roux is indeed trying to find 2 more bat marks on the door. no luck as yet.. but then, he has to find 2 more DOOR MARKS on the bat.. you see?? as the bat stands today. its got the 2 gouges in it where it hit the door. no more.. no less.

What Mrs Burger heard was the 4 gunshots, because she also heard, you left this bit out, the bloodcurdling scream. ( Reeva's hip shot) then that tiny little pause, then Reevas head shot, the missed ricocheting shot , then the arm shot. 4 shots. neither Mrs Burger nor Mr Johnson heard the cricket bat, infact no one has testified to hearing the bat sounds..

and its a rational assumption to make , that no one heard the cricket bat sounds.. it makes a dull thud , wood on wood, its ENTIRELY and COMPLETELY different to gunshot. it has no reverberation, no aftersound at all. To South Africans the idea that those two sounds, gunfire,/cricket bat make the same sound, is illogical. they just don't.

I do need to repeat that fact..no witness , not one, at any time has testified to hearing the cricket bat sounds.. Roux has suggested they heard it, but the witnesses rejected the idea as ludicrous.. because they know from a lifetime of hearing both sorts of sounds, that it isn't rational to make that claim..

Mrs Burger was adamant. in the face of all the suggestions put to her, it couldn't make her fit what she heard into the suggested scenario.

Mr Johnson didn't even consider the possibility of his mistaking gunshot for cricket bat stuff.

Dr Stipp simply agreed that Roux was entitled to make this suggestion, but he carried on stating it was gunshot.

the sound of the cricket bat whacks were not alluded to by any ear witness .. up until now. could there be a witness to that?? well. closer in, next door to Oscar, maybe and perhaps.. hasn't happened as yet. Because the bat was struck on the door, twice..no argument there.. but that sound, the cricket bat sound has no way of travelling with the same impact as a gunshot.

curiousjo said:

More than 1 witness heard fighting and woman screaming. The doctor heard INTERMIXED female and male voice fighting and woman's blood curdling screams! And they all heard the gun shots - at the same time!

Click to expand...

No they didn't all hear gun shots. They all heard a set of sounds around 3:17, but only Stipp heard the gunshots at 3:10 - ish.

I hate to belabor this but the doctors two written statements on 2-15-13 and 3-18-13 never mentioned hearing male and female intermingled screams. His statements only describe one voice screaming, and he thought is was a female.

Only now a year later, after much media exposure and knowing the State's theory has he come up with this new version of both man and woman screaming intermingled.

if the irrational theory of people mistaking cricketbat sounds for gunfire.. then.. since there is indisputably 4 gunshots fired.. ( 4 casings, Oscar agrees to this ) then 2 marks of the cricketbat on the door.. ( and , consequently, 2 marks of the door gouges on the cricket bat..

that makes.. um. 4 + 2 = 6 sounds in total.


if Roux's suggestion can be taken seriously.. Mrs Burger, Mr Johnson and Dr Stipp.. all at the same time, and unconnected to each other..had to have heard 6 sounds. ( its even too big a stretch for me to suggest that Oscar was holding the bat in one hand, the gun in the other, firing and whacking simultaneously at the same speed and in the same sequence , so I think that theory can be reasonably discarded)

If Mrs Burger head 4 sounds.. Dr Stipp heard 4 sounds. Mr Johnson heard 4 sounds and possibly one more.

then they, if Roux's theory has rationality, they could only hear 2 cricket bat sounds ( because there are only 2 cricket bat dings in the door ) and 2 ( hip shot, head shot) of the 4 gunfire sounds.. hearing these ( 2 totally different sounds) close together, they then mistook them all for gunfire. They all have to make the same mistake , at the same time.

they all then , apparently, go deaf to the remaining 2 gunshots ( misfire and arm shot)

at the same time, all together, all unknown to each other.

minor4th said:

No they didn't all hear gun shots. They all heard a set of sounds around 3:17, but only Stipp heard the gunshots at 3:10 - ish.

I hate to belabor this but the doctors two written statements on 2-15-13 and 3-18-13 never mentioned hearing male and female intermingled screams. His statements only describe one voice screaming, and he thought is was a female.

Only now a year later, after much media exposure and knowing the State's theory has he come up with this new version of both man and woman screaming intermingled.

Click to expand...

It seems that Christo Menelaou confirms noises earlier (3:08).
http://drum.co.za/celebs/hes-heartbroken/

It remains to be seen if that is introduced as testimony (evidence)

It seems clear to me that the gun shots were at around 3:08 to 3:14 and that the noises Burger(s) heard at 3:17 were the same "second set" of noises that Stipp heard... cricket bat on door.


The State has conceded that cricket bat came AFTER shots. They have to because all the evidence shows that.
With clear evidence of two sets of noises, the second set must be the cricket bat noises.

minor4th said:

No they didn't all hear gun shots. They all heard a set of sounds around 3:17, but only Stipp heard the gunshots at 3:10 - ish.

I hate to belabor this but the doctors two written statements on 2-15-13 and 3-18-13 never mentioned hearing male and female intermingled screams. His statements only describe one voice screaming, and he thought is was a female.

Only now a year later, after much media exposure and knowing the State's theory has he come up with this new version of both man and woman screaming intermingled.

Click to expand...

I , myself , hate to belabor it also but this is simply incorrect.. the confusion comes because Roux theory and suggestions are being confused with the witness testimony .

those 3 witnesses, Burger, Johnson and Stipp all testified , firmly and unarguably that it was screaming , arguing then gunshots that woke them up. Stipp heard distinctly a man and a womans voice , AND shooting intermingled. all at the same time.

the part I have bolded is such an extreme leap into unfounded and baseless accusation and just plain aspersion casting, with nothing ,nothing nothing to back such a wild accusation up..

I mean..to make that accusation, do you have any record of meetings in a dark cupboard with Dr Stipp and the prosecutor?? any recordings?? any notes taken ?? anything?? does even ROUX make this claim?? has Dr Stipp done this kind of thing before?? lets have some reality, please.. its not too much to ask.

Rumpole said:

It seems that Christo Menelaou confirms noises earlier (3:08).
http://drum.co.za/celebs/hes-heartbroken/

It remains to be seen if that is introduced as testimony (evidence)

It seems clear to me that the gun shots were at around 3:08 to 3:14 and that the noises Burger(s) heard at 3:17 were the same "second set" of noises that Stipp heard... cricket bat on door.


The State has conceded that cricket bat came AFTER shots. They have to because all the evidence shows that.
With clear evidence of two sets of noises, the second set must be the cricket bat noises.

Click to expand...

if it seems clear that the gun shots were around 3.08 to 3.14... how does that tie in with Oscar ringing Johan Standar at 3.20am??

that's a hell of a long time to faff around , don't you think?? he had time for a smoke and an aspirin . hells bells, he would have had time to mop the floor.

or his call to netcare?? 3.21am? ( that call hasn't been testified to as yet... no one can find the record of it. ) . Roux says he used another phone.

no one has testified they heard the cricket bat at all. (gentle reminder)

no one.. not one person, has testified or made a statement or alluded or hinted or plain downright stated they heard a cricket bat. .

Logically, the only person who heard a cricket bat was Oscar. logically, we can assume he heard it, because he was swinging it at the door. Logically, we can assume he did this from the evidence of the bat marks on the door, and the door gouges on the bat. 2 marks = 2 bat whacks.

logically. we can take it on board that Oscar heard 2 cricket bat sounds.

but no one else heard them. not surprising at all.