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JonBenet Ramsey What really happened to 6 year old JonBenet? Someone is getting away with murder. All information posted on this site is gained through published documentation on this case. It is strictly opinion only.


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Old 08-18-2005, 10:26 AM
Nehemiah Nehemiah is offline
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Head injury vs. strangulation ***WARNING! AUTOPSY PHOTOS!***

http://thewebsafe.tripod.com/0317200...ndiscovery.htm

transcript by listener on 3/18/2000

Narrator Lyn Cannon
Guest Forensic pathologist Dr. Werner Spitz
From handwriting analysis to the autopsy, the lastest twist in what the evidence may reveal about this gruesome crime.

Six year old JonBenet Ramsey is back in the news this week. The girl's parents, John and Patsy Ramsey, are out with a new book that proclaimed their innocence, and offers a psychological profile about who they think killed their daughter. The case has stumped authorities for 3 yrs. One of the most basic questions that has gone unanswered,--- what weapons were used in the murder?

THE WEAPON:

LC: From the day the body was found, investigators knew that Jon Benet Ramsey, suffered a severe blow to the head, as well as strangulatiion with a cord. But which came first? Determining that could tell a great deal about the motive and the killer. Investigators speculate strangulation first could mean a sex crime. If the blow came first, it might point to a kidnapper or a crime of rage. Dr.Warner Spitz has conducted more than 50,000 autopsies. In 1997, he was consulted by the Boulder police investigating the murder. He says he reviewed more than 100 autopsy photos which have never been released to the public.

You believe JBR was hit on the head first, and then strangled.

Dr. WS: Yes.

LC: But in reports published this week, a former detective, who also worked on the case, claimed the head wound did not bleed enough to be the first injury, but Spitz says, he can prove his case, and it's believed the Boulder police agree.

Dr.WS: Because there was hemmoraging in the brain.

LC: There was hemmoraging in the brain?

Dr.WS: There was hemmoraging in the scalp, in the skin,in other words,

LC: Spitz says those hemmorages would not have formed if JB was already dead of strangulation when she suffered the head injury.

Dr.WS: She did have a circulation....she did have blood clots, she did have heart beat, she did breathe, for awhile, after the head injury.

LC:Let me say that the noose, made of cord similar to this, was not tied around her neck after death. He believes that she was dying of the head injury while she was strangled. His evidence,...a tell tale pattern of hemmoraging on the internal surface of her eye lids. Petechial or penpoint hemmorages.

Dr.WS: When strangulation occurs, there is a point where the blood vessels to the neck get obstructed. The blood still flows into the head, but it doesn't flow out.

LC: That's because veins, which have lower blood pressure, are shut off first. Arteries, with higher blood pressure, keep flowing longer.

Dr.WS: ........?..there is increased pressure above the knees, and tiny little blood vessels in the eyes and around the eyes, may break.

LC: Jon Benet eyes did show this pattern of hemmoraging, indicating, Spitz says, that her heart was still beating when the noose was applied. And there's always then another question: was Jon Benet sexually assaulted, and when? Experts disagree, but Spitz's review tells him that Jon Benet had no history of sexual abuse. But a splinter found during the autopsy tells him she was sexually assaulted at the time of her death, perhaps with the artist's paintbrush tied to the cord around her neck.

Dr.WS: I believe that this..?.pressure occurred at the time that she died, or just before, or during.

LC: But Spitz thinks the sexual assault was an attempt to disguise the crime scene, to make it look like a sex crime.

Dr.WS: I believe that the injury to the head was first, knocked her out. I think everything else here was staging.

LC: Spitz maintains the blow to the head was the central element of the murder, and he carefully studied JB's fatal scull fracture.

Dr.WS: ...? it was perfectly rectangular. That piece of bone that was knocked out, remained attached on a hinge,and was bendable.

LC: The size and shape of the fracture was so distinctive, Spitz decided to conduct his own tests, reenacting the injury.

Dr.WS: You could do it on syrofoam, you could do it on cardboard, you could do it on bone. I did it on all three.

LC: Published reports this week, speculate a baseball bat, found outside the house, might be the murder weapon. Spitz's tests lead him to a weapon inside the house.

Dr.WS: I would certainly believe that the flashlight is the instrument of death.

LC: What makes you so sure that it's compatible. How do you know?

Dr.WS: Because it fits right into the ....?.. It doesn't fit into the defect where it leaves some area to play with. It fits perfectly.

LC: Not any flashlight, but a specific type police reportedly found in the Ramsey home.

Dr.WS: The flashlight was raised above the head of the perpetrater and,a hand down,...with this portion , this wide, breaking the bone.

LC: So who did it? Here...forensic pathology comes up short. The autopsy tells Spitz only what was done, not by whom.....



There has been lots of speculation about which occurred first--the head injury or the strangulation. Here we have Dr. Spitz saying that he reviewed over 100 autopsy photos that were never released to the public. I don't think I realized that.

Just a reminder to me that so much of what we think we know about this case, we do not because we haven't been privvy to all the information.
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Old 08-18-2005, 01:13 PM
Rupert Rupert is offline
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Strangle Bash The Child

Wow! Thanks Nehemiah for starting such a good thread and with a report that somehow I have never come across. Awesome!

If we agree with Spitz, then it must have been a premeditated, accurately directed blow to the head with a maglight and then immediate strangulation following. If it fits the maglight left in the kitchen (which was wiped absolutely clean of prints inside and out), then we have planted evidence. The Ramsays said they didn't recognize that maglight. Thus Strangle Bash The Child and seriously folks that's what Leopold & Loeb intended to do with Bobby Franks. See Hal Higdon The Crime of the Century (court case).

It may be that the perp wanted to so confuse, perplex, and puzzle the cops & FBI, that the strangle/bash was indeed done together.
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Old 08-18-2005, 04:05 PM
BlueCrab BlueCrab is offline
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I personally don't trust much of what Werner Spitz has to say about the JonBenet case. His remarks seem to come in from left field.

For instance, Spitz contradicts himself about the petechial hemorrhages on JonBenet's eyelids by saying she was alive when the ligature was pulled tight around her neck, causing the petechial hemorrhages, but then says she died from the blow on the head. JonBenet was alive when that ligature around the neck was pulled so tight that it sunk into her skin, which Spitz admits, so common sense says the ligature ended JonBenet's life by strangulation.

If the hit on the head had killed JonBenet then there would have been no petechial hemorrhages on the eyelids nor any other place. Dead people cannot produce petechial hemorrhages. The heart has to be pumping.

JonBenet died by asphyxia as a result of the strangulation. The bash on the head was delivered after death. That's why there was no blood -- the heart wasn't pumping.

Also, but a little off topic to help explain why I don't trust Spitz, the marks on JonBenet which the coroner and other forensic experts agree are consistent with stun gun injuries, Spitz says were likely caused by stones lying on the basement floor or by snaps on an article of clothing. He failed to produce the whereabouts of the crime scene stones or the snaps.

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Old 08-18-2005, 06:29 PM
Nehemiah Nehemiah is offline
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Dr.WS: She did have a circulation....she did have blood clots, she did have heart beat, she did breathe, for awhile, after the head injury.

LC:Let me say that the noose, made of cord similar to this, was not tied around her neck after death. He believes that she was dying of the head injury while she was strangled. His evidence,...a tell tale pattern of hemmoraging on the internal surface of her eye lids. Petechial or penpoint hemmorages.


He says that she did breathe for awhile after the head injury and that the strangulation took place while she was still alive...yet dying. Dr. Spitz has performed over 50,000 autopsies...that's a lot. Not that he has to be 100% right because of his experience, but he has something that we do not--over 100 autopsy photos and extensive experience on his side.

I guess each has to decide for him/herself what to believe, and I am taking his report to be accurate.
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Old 08-18-2005, 07:56 PM
capps capps is offline
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This may be a silly question ... but does it really matter which happened first? Obviously,one or the other caused death,and it still doesn't prove who did it.
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Old 08-18-2005, 08:09 PM
tipper tipper is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by capps
This may be a silly question ... but does it really matter which happened first? Obviously,one or the other caused death,and it still doesn't prove who did it.
Yes and no. If the blow was after the garrote that certainly takes away from the idea that Patsy hit her in a fit of rage and all else was coverup.

Without a confession we'll probably never know who did it.

I think the BDI theory is as much a house of cards as the JAR flew in from GA, killed his sister, and then flew back before anyone noticed he was gone theory.
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Old 08-18-2005, 08:28 PM
capps capps is offline
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If the blow was after the garrote that certainly takes away from the idea that Patsy hit her in a fit of rage and all else was coverup.

Tipper,

You're right,that would be one of the reasons they would need to know.

I guess it was a silly question lol.
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Old 08-18-2005, 08:49 PM
tipper tipper is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by capps
If the blow was after the garrote that certainly takes away from the idea that Patsy hit her in a fit of rage and all else was coverup.

Tipper,

You're right,that would be one of the reasons they would need to know.

I guess it was a silly question lol.
Not silly since as you said earlier the BIG question is who, not in what order.
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Old 08-18-2005, 10:29 PM
Charlie Charlie is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueCrab
I personally don't trust much of what Werner Spitz has to say about the JonBenet case. His remarks seem to come in from left field.
BlueCrab
The hardest part of this case for me personally is knowing what expert to believe...Dr Spitz says one thing, Dr cyril wecht says another...what came first is soo bloody subjective. If anyone has absolute recall on what doctors particpated in the JBR case and what thier analysis was, concerning the timeline of the head blow and strangulation could u please post it, that way we can all see who says what, and how many different opinions there are.

Arg so frustratring all these doctors with years and years experience all contradicting each other.
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Old 08-19-2005, 02:51 AM
Rupert Rupert is offline
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Red, Red Wine

Charlie, I feel the same way and would like to get onto the straight and narrow where everything falls into place. There's a lot of fuzziness because people just keep discounting evidence to fit their own theory. I think imagination is important and to speculate what might have happened. Test it with the facts and a consistency. If it doesn't fit, loosen up and let it roll. Open up to other possibilities. I like the red wine my wife makes.

I guess I'm dug in just as deep as Bluecrab about my own theory. If IDI, the perp was asking us to listen carefully. "Follow our instructions to the letter" means JB will be dead. "Follow our instructions to the letter" comes from Leopold & Loeb. I credit Jameson for that. Thus "follow our instructions to the letter" SBTC means that the child is strangled and bashed.

However, IF IF IF (hello Camper), the RN relates to L&L and thus the movie: "Rope", I find it a weird coincidence that PR mentioned Lazarus just like in that movie. Just another coincidence.

Fellow Pierot's (and proud to be) I toast you with this good wine!
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Old 08-19-2005, 07:39 AM
BlueCrab BlueCrab is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rupert

I like the red wine my wife makes.

Fellow Pierot's (and proud to be) I toast you with this good wine!

Rupert,

Thanks for waiting until you completed posting before finishing off the rest of that good wife-made red wine. Who is Pierot? Ross?
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Old 08-19-2005, 09:38 AM
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Hmmm

Hmmm, whut does she make the wine out of? DO you grow yer own grapes?

Thank you Nehemiah, I would like to see a picture of Werner Spitz, I am suspecting he is of German heritage, which makes him automatically a perfectionist, as opposed to a loose canon type.

IF IF the blow did come first, that presents a very complex situation. The blow was as I recall to the side of her head. SO IF IF our perp had her lying on the bed, was she facing her perp or not? Her bed on the left side as we look at her bed, had a narrow space between it and the wall. Am I remembering incorrectly on that, er, huh?

SO, sleuthing in my hed, would tell me that our perp was between the two beds and closer to the nightstand. Here comes a good question, 'which side of her head' had the BLOW? ALL of my sleuthing here is based on the 'attack' happening in her bedroom, which may or may not be correct.

Then we are left with WS and his loose stones er snaps.

Burp.


Ahh that cleared my head a bit. Remember waaaaay back when a psychic entered the Ramsey home escorted by ??? escapes my memory. BUT, the point is that the psychic had purportedly NEVER been in the R home before. The psychic said that a childs yellow rain slicker could be found in the front closet, and it was tied to the crime. NOW then, a rain slicker could have snaps on it, I think I have a breakthrough here, hmmm.

Well, I donut remember the psychics name, and I donut remember who was with her (think it was a her - ain't most psychics?) Plus I just plain don't know what happened with the psychics thoughts when told to the BPD, I am guessing that they just stood around and laffed, I donut know.

Anyone remember all of this stuff?

OOPS forgot something, editing to add, as I recall a childs 'yellow rain slicker' was found in that very closet.


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Old 08-19-2005, 10:49 AM
Rupert Rupert is offline
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Pierot

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueCrab
Rupert,

Thanks for waiting until you completed posting before finishing off the rest of that good wife-made red wine. Who is Pierot? Ross?
Pierot: French inspector of Agatha Christie? Murder on the Orient Express? I hope I got that right.

Off for weekend holiday at last. It's been a stressful work summer and this mystery sleuth thing with you guys is interesting and helps me escape/relax. I'm catching Camper's humor. I only had two glasses and barbecued at 11pm.
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Old 08-19-2005, 11:24 AM
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Hmmm

Well would you believe it I had yet another thought, driven by Nehemiahs great thread here.


Quote:

Dr.WS: I would certainly believe that the flashlight is the instrument of death.

LC: What makes you so sure that it's compatible. How do you know?

Dr.WS: Because it fits right into the ....?.. It doesn't fit into the defect where it leaves some area to play with. It fits perfectly.

LC: Not any flashlight, but a specific type police reportedly found in the Ramsey home.

Dr.WS: The flashlight was raised above the head of the perpetrater and,a hand down,...with this portion , this wide, breaking the bone.


WAS JonBenet struck while sitting up, lying down, from the back or from the front. IF IF WS said the flashlight fit perfectly with NO PLAY, HOW did the flashlight fit in the skull that would answer my questions here?

In answering my own questions here, I believe the blow was vertical on the side of her head, correct me IF IF I err. If that is so, then she may have been struck by a person standing up - who was either much taller than she, OR to think indelicately - she could have been doing something 'for' the perp, when she was struck alongside the head.

Anyone still have pictures of the flashlight that is a popular one used by pilots, and that the Ramseys owned but did not know where 'their' flashlight was, OR where it was typically kept?

Pictures again of the head trauma, would be enlightening, can someone pull them up again? Thanks.

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Old 08-19-2005, 11:46 AM
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I too believe JonBenet was struck in the head with the flashlight...in a fit of rage. The swelling from the blow caused the cord to burrow into her neck. The cord was not intentionaly tied tight as was the cord around her wrist.

So there goes the AE scenario....JonBenet was accidently hit over the head and the rest was staging.

If she was strangled first...my belief was that Burke strangled her with his Nintendo64 controller.

Camper...JonBenet's head wound was on the right side of her head...from the orbital region all the way to the back of her head. The bone on the back of her head was shattered. The flashlight is just the right length for this head injury especially since the bone shattered....which would be hard to do with a baseball bat.
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Old 08-19-2005, 11:58 AM
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Hmmm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toltec
I too believe JonBenet was struck in the head with the flashlight...in a fit of rage. The swelling from the blow caused the cord to burrow into her neck. The cord was not intentionaly tied tight as was the cord around her wrist.

So there goes the AE scenario....JonBenet was accidently hit over the head and the rest was staging.

If she was strangled first...my belief was that Burke strangled her with his Nintendo64 controller.

Camper...JonBenet's head wound was on the right side of her head...from the orbital region all the way to the back of her head. The bone on the back of her head was shattered. The flashlight is just the right length for this head injury especially since the bone shattered....which would be hard to do with a baseball bat.


Thank you for the remembrance about the head wound. HOW DID the flashlight fit, was she then struck from the back of the head or from the front?

IF IF JonBenet was struck from behind then WHERE would this place the flashlight wielder TO HAVE ACCIDENTALLY hit her, wouldn't the perp person have been behind her to be strangling her with a Nintendo cord? IF IF this was NOT the case, and the strangler person were in front of JonBenet, there should have been many many dna scratch samples from the attacker under her fingernails, huh?

There was a heighth difference in both children.

IF IF she was struck face on, it would hardly seem an accident.

SO which way was the flashlight striking surface facing?

Is a Nintendo cord NOT covered with rubber, therefore not allowing it to hold a tight knot?

IF IF the Nintendo cord was used for major damage, HOW do we explain the EA device. Who made it?


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Old 08-19-2005, 02:59 PM
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http://zyberzoom.com/JonBenet.html

photo's of her skull.

looks to me as if she was ducking when struck
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Old 08-19-2005, 04:12 PM
Nehemiah Nehemiah is offline
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Werner U. Spitz, MD

Consultant Forensic Pathology and Toxicology Medical Examiner, Macomb County, Michigan Professor of Pathology, Wayne State University School of Medicine Adjunct Professor of Toxicology, University of Windsor, Canada

Dr. Spitz received his medical training at the Geneva University Medical School in Switzerland and the Hebrew University, Hadassa Medical School in Jerusalem, Israel. He is certified by the American Board of Pathology in Anatomic and Forensic Pathology. Dr. Spitz served as chief medical examiner of Wayne County (Detroit, Michigan) for 16 years and retired from this position in October, 1988. Other positions Dr. Spitz held were deputy chief medical examiner of the state of Maryland, associate professor of forensic pathology at Johns Hopkins University and lecturer in the department of forensic pathology at the Free University in Berlin, Germany.He is author of 90 scientific publications, author and editor of the authoritative and celebrated textbook, Medicolegal Investigations of Death. The expanded and updated third edition is now available. He has served on various committees investigating the assassination of President John F. Kennedy and Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.,including the House Committee on Assassinations. Dr. Spitz has served as an expert in many cases receiving national attention, the California Night Stalker murder trail, Mary Jo Koepeckne, the Franke murder trial in Oregon and the “Preppy Murder Trial” in New York City are but a few. He has lectured and given expert testimonyworldwide. Dr. Spitz served as an expert commentator for network television during the O.J. Simpson trial and JonBenet Ramsey case.

www.med.wayne.edu/cme/Medical%20Legal%2004.pdf
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Old 08-19-2005, 04:32 PM
Nehemiah Nehemiah is offline
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Until I started this thread, I never looked into Dr. Spitz' qualifications or his assessment of the murder. I found this interesting once again even though we've posted endlessly about a stun gun or not.


...More than any other evidence, detective Lou Smit believes that small marks left on JonBenet’s face and back, prove that an intruder killed JonBenet.

“The killer had a stun gun. I am sure the killer had a stun gun,” he says.
But the Boulder police are relying on another opinion, that of Dr. Werner Spitz. He thinks that pebbles or rocks on the floor caused the marks. Spitz has worked as a forensic pathologist in Michigan for nearly 50 years.

“A stun gun. Stun gun injury is an electrical burn, and these do not look like electrical burns,” he says. Spitz believes the large, dark mark on JonBenet’s face was left by a snap on a piece of clothing...


http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/...in523887.shtml

And then we have Patsy saying this in a police interview:

THOMAS HANEY: Okay. Anything else

2 on the bed?

3 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, this looks

4 like a little -- the little pot holder square

5 she was making. This multi-colored thing here.

6 This black thing I can't (INAUDIBLE). Oh,

7 that's sort of looks like it might be the little

8 velvet dress (INAUDIBLE). Little silver snaps.

9 TRIP DeMUTH: When did she last

10 wear that?

11 PATSY RAMSEY: She wore that to the

12 Whites on the 25th.

13 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay. The evening of

14 the 25th?
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Old 08-19-2005, 05:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rupert
Pierot: French inspector of Agatha Christie? Murder on the Orient Express? I hope I got that right.

Off for weekend holiday at last. It's been a stressful work summer and this mystery sleuth thing with you guys is interesting and helps me escape/relax. I'm catching Camper's humor. I only had two glasses and barbecued at 11pm.
Rupert,
I loved the Pierot mysteries,I used to watch them all the time on PBS ... of course while having a nice glass of Pinot Grigio,it may not have been wife made,like yours,but my son lives in the Sonoma/Napa valley,(wine country),and always brings some home .... so close enough!

Enjoy your holiday week end ... there is a tornado watch here for us ... yikes!

Back on topic ... for sure, Dr. Spitz is no slouch,but then again neither is Dr. Meyer ... that's what makes this case so difficult.Except for poor JonBenet being dead,I don't think there's anything else that any one agrees on.

Makes one reach for another glass of fine wine.
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Old 08-19-2005, 11:22 PM
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Hmmm

Just a quickie before bedtime here. I looked at the photos of the head injury, that was one horrific blow!

The rope was imbedded so deeply.

I had a random thought just as I was looking and thinking, could she have been on a skateboard with the rope around her neck and the long end of the rope being held by 'someone' who purposefully whirled her into a cement wall in the basement?

No blood, but perhaps some hair could have been found imbedded in 'the/a' wall in the basement. This really does not hold water, because why the coverup IF IF it was as simple as all that.

Good night all.



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Old 08-20-2005, 09:26 AM
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Maglite as a possible murder weapon

I am not sure what the facts relating to the Maglite are

Can anyone tell me it the following is accurate please?

It was found on the benchtop in the kitchen
It has not been positively identified as having been owned by John Ramsey
There were no fingerprints on it
There were no fibres on it
There was no blood on it
There was no hair on it
There was no DNA on it

Is there anything else that is known about it?
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Old 08-20-2005, 02:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aussiesheila
I am not sure what the facts relating to the Maglite are

Can anyone tell me it the following is accurate please?

It was found on the benchtop in the kitchen
It has not been positively identified as having been owned by John Ramsey
There were no fingerprints on it
There were no fibres on it
There was no blood on it
There was no hair on it
There was no DNA on it

Is there anything else that is known about it?

aussiesheila,

The 3-cell black MagLite was found sitting upright on the kitchen counter. It belonged to the Ramseys and was normally kept in a drawer in the wet bar area (just a few steps away from where it was found). The Ramseys could not immediately identify the light because they were shown a photo of it after the crime lab had processed it for fingerprints, and the chemicals used in the processing turned the aluminum surface of the light a mottled color.

Here's some miscellaneous info about the flashlight:

o It measured 12 1/3" long.

o It weighed 2 pounds.

o No fingerprints were found on the light nor its batteries.

o The retail price of the MagLite was about $25 and had been given to John as a gift from John Andrew.

o The anodized aluminum casing was not damaged.


IMO the Maglite was not the murder weapon because a 12" long object could not have produced the velocity needed to crush JonBenet's skull and split it in two. Only a baseball bat could have produced that kind of velocity.

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Old 08-20-2005, 05:27 PM
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Camper Camper is offline
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Hmmm

BlueCrab,
Lots of good information on the flashlight, thank you. Patsy was on a softball team, so a friend of an acquaintance told me not long ago. DID Burke or anyone else play softball? Someone had to have a 'hearty' and a strong wielded swing to one to deliver such damage. I just spent a fair amount of time looking at the damaged skull link.

One of the three victims shown on that link, had been strangled by a scarf, and had a similar mark to one on JonBenets neck.

The large round dark spot on her face is certainly a puzzle.

Lets remember the fireplace tools as well that were in the home. If I remember correctly one was found just outside the basement room, on the floor, where her body was found.



Quote:
Here's some miscellaneous info about the flashlight:

o It measured 12 1/3" long.

o It weighed 2 pounds.

o No fingerprints were found on the light nor its batteries.

o The retail price of the MagLite was about $25 and had been given to John as a gift from John Andrew.

o The anodized aluminum casing was not damaged.


IMO the Maglite was not the murder weapon because a 12" long object could not have produced the velocity needed to crush JonBenet's skull and split it in two. Only a baseball bat could have produced that kind of velocity.

BlueCrab
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Old 08-20-2005, 09:02 PM
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6 This black thing I can't (INAUDIBLE). Oh,

7 that's sort of looks like it might be the little

8 velvet dress (INAUDIBLE). Little silver snaps.

9 TRIP DeMUTH: When did she last

10 wear that?

11 PATSY RAMSEY: She wore that to the

12 Whites on the 25th.

13 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay. The evening of

14 the 25th?[/quote]

Great catch Nehemiah! ...little silver snaps. Sure beats a stun gun! JonBenet was initially rendered unconcious in her bedroom and my belief is that the blow to the head felled her to the floor. The cord was cut on her bed but I do not know if it was placed on JonBenet in her bedroom. The little snaps from her velvet dress most likely would have caused the marks on her face.

Remember when the monster David Westerfield took Danielle from her bed? He didn't need a stun gun to immobilize her because he punched her in the face and knocked her two front teeth out before carrying her out the Van Damm home.

Patsy claims that JonBenet wore the velvet dress Christmas day but in reality she wore it Christmas Eve.
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