PA PA - Karen, 11, & Michael, 10: Missing Kids of Susan Reinert, Ardmore, 22 June 1979 - Page 6

GbreadMan · #**126** 06-24-2011, 12:27 PM

For the past two years I've researched the material that's available online, including Google satellite to view the surrounding geography. However, I am also a fan of native plants, and the leaves on the ground and the shrubs in the understory may assist in finding the location.

The leaves on the ground are probably northern red oak, quercus rubra. Pin oak is very closely related (and more common to the pine barrens), but I would say the lobes are not sharp enough for pin oak. There are also more points to each lobe, implying northern red oak. While pine-barren soil is acidic, northern red oak is uncommon in that region due to its propensity for higher terrain similar to that in southeast Pa.

It would take red oak decades if not a century or two of undisturbed growth in order to establish itself. Therefore this is an area which does not see much in the way of forest clearcuts for farming or industry, implying an established, "old gentry" area, or a well-established park or campus.

The shrub is difficult to identify (simple-leaf shrubs are a dime a dozen), but it looks like a type of invasive amur honeysuckle which would be found in an acidic, semi-suburban, upland location such as around southeast Pa, where invasive plants have become commonplace. They were also used as hedges for several decades until they were declared an invasive species.

The amur honeysuckle is leafed out, meaning this picture was taken in warm weather...yet there are no flowers or fruit. This implies the picture was taken in summertime, after the flowers fell off the tree in late spring, but before fruit was set in early fall/September. This gives a time window of June through August.

The picture also has metallic debris in front of the stone...some sort of rusty metal chair in the foreground. This may indicate a dumping site or location where people such as children frequently "hang out" (urban or suburban woodlands). The chair could've been a part of an old go-cart, or some sort of industrial widget.

My theory has been that Smith dumped the children in Valley Forge; I had suspected this before reading the book, but toward the end of the book he mentioned that he wanted it to be called the "Valley Forge murders", not the Main Line murders which was the name the media started propagating.

Valley Forge would also pose a problem for a state murder investigation; how do you inspect several hundred acres of federally protected land with potentially thousands of unmarked graves of colonial soldiers? Ground-penetrating radar did not exist. A secluded, upland woody spot in Valley Forge was the perfect place to dump a couple more bodies in an area full of them. Smith could then sit back and laugh while the feds and staties fought for years over bureaucracy and search warrants. A road map of Valley Forge from 1979 may help locate locations the car could be parked, and the bodies discreetly carried and dumped.

The ash caught in the rear section of the car bumper may also be significant. The northern end of valley forge was at one time an industrial site, and would have contained old ash pits scattered around the property. If ash samples from the car still exist, their composition could be cross-referenced with those still on the property.

I do not live around the area, and have not had a chance to drive down and look around. However, if their bodies are still around, they would be located in a secluded section of park or back-woods, relatively uphill about 10-15 feet or higher in elevation from water sources. An upland, semi-suburban protected area such as a federal park would also keep large scavengers away from digging up the bodies. I hope someone can use this insight to find something helpful.

Dan

Deeds · #**127** 08-24-2011, 09:41 AM

Unknown Boy, shown bound and gagged in photo

Submitted Unknown Boy, shown bound and gagged in photo-Taj Narbonne? - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

Johnny Gosch website under UNKNOWN BOY..

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Photos of bound/gagged unident. boys surface

strawberry · #**128** 10-15-2011, 10:50 PM

I thought of this case today. I went to the Academy of Natural Sciences in Philly. We got a pin for the Butterfly Room and it was like the Philadelpia Pin Karen had. This story tugs at me. I read the book and am from the area. So so sad.

nodnarb481 · #**129** 01-05-2012, 04:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GbreadMan

For the past two years I've researched the material that's available online, including Google satellite to view the surrounding geography. However, I am also a fan of native plants, and the leaves on the ground and the shrubs in the understory may assist in finding the location.

The leaves on the ground are probably northern red oak, quercus rubra. Pin oak is very closely related (and more common to the pine barrens), but I would say the lobes are not sharp enough for pin oak. There are also more points to each lobe, implying northern red oak. While pine-barren soil is acidic, northern red oak is uncommon in that region due to its propensity for higher terrain similar to that in southeast Pa.

It would take red oak decades if not a century or two of undisturbed growth in order to establish itself. Therefore this is an area which does not see much in the way of forest clearcuts for farming or industry, implying an established, "old gentry" area, or a well-established park or campus.

The shrub is difficult to identify (simple-leaf shrubs are a dime a dozen), but it looks like a type of invasive amur honeysuckle which would be found in an acidic, semi-suburban, upland location such as around southeast Pa, where invasive plants have become commonplace. They were also used as hedges for several decades until they were declared an invasive species.

The amur honeysuckle is leafed out, meaning this picture was taken in warm weather...yet there are no flowers or fruit. This implies the picture was taken in summertime, after the flowers fell off the tree in late spring, but before fruit was set in early fall/September. This gives a time window of June through August.

The picture also has metallic debris in front of the stone...some sort of rusty metal chair in the foreground. This may indicate a dumping site or location where people such as children frequently "hang out" (urban or suburban woodlands). The chair could've been a part of an old go-cart, or some sort of industrial widget.

My theory has been that Smith dumped the children in Valley Forge; I had suspected this before reading the book, but toward the end of the book he mentioned that he wanted it to be called the "Valley Forge murders", not the Main Line murders which was the name the media started propagating.

Valley Forge would also pose a problem for a state murder investigation; how do you inspect several hundred acres of federally protected land with potentially thousands of unmarked graves of colonial soldiers? Ground-penetrating radar did not exist. A secluded, upland woody spot in Valley Forge was the perfect place to dump a couple more bodies in an area full of them. Smith could then sit back and laugh while the feds and staties fought for years over bureaucracy and search warrants. A road map of Valley Forge from 1979 may help locate locations the car could be parked, and the bodies discreetly carried and dumped.

The ash caught in the rear section of the car bumper may also be significant. The northern end of valley forge was at one time an industrial site, and would have contained old ash pits scattered around the property. If ash samples from the car still exist, their composition could be cross-referenced with those still on the property.

I do not live around the area, and have not had a chance to drive down and look around. However, if their bodies are still around, they would be located in a secluded section of park or back-woods, relatively uphill about 10-15 feet or higher in elevation from water sources. An upland, semi-suburban protected area such as a federal park would also keep large scavengers away from digging up the bodies. I hope someone can use this insight to find something helpful.

Dan

THANK YOU! for this incredibly insightful post. I disagree with Smith being the murderer. Through my research I have had an overwhelming feeling that he was framed in all of this. But being that both him and bradfield are dead now, I guess it doesn't make much difference as far as solving the case of the the missing kids goes.

However, Your post is DIRECTLY in line with my thought process. Valley forge has always made sense to me. More specifically, Wayne's Woods. This is a section of Valley forge that is UPHILL like you said, very heavily wooded, and very undisturbed.

Now get this: This section of the park is closed off. Completely undisturbed with a fence around it and no trespassing signs. Why? Because it is a site of buried soldiers. At one corner of the woods you can see a sign that reads "Burial site of unknown soldiers." The unknown soldiers grave sites are marked by upright stones. Exactly like in the picture. It seems like its almost too easy to not be cracked at this point. A secluded part of a national park that is filled with grave sites marked by up right stones? No-brainer. I do not have knowledge on when that part of the park was officially fenced off but combining your speculations with mine, I have an OVERWHELMING urge to go investigate myself.

Lets keep this thread alive.

Fin · #**130** 02-22-2012, 11:50 AM

Neither Michael nor Karen are listed as MP on Namus.

vallejo_dave · #**131** 03-02-2012, 10:01 PM

Thank You Gbreadman for your excellent post. The children were last seen entering the hatchback on Friday night in Ardmore. The car was then found on Sunday in Harrisburg, with Susan's body in it. Somewhere in the books I read that either Bill Bradfield or Jay Smith were quoted as saying " the kids could easily have been gotten rid of-take them to the woods down by Fayetteville." Ardmore is on the Mainline, and route 30 can be taken from there all the way to Chambersburg, where it intersects I-81. (passing thru Michieux State Forest and Caledonia State park, and the town of Fayetteville). Turn right on I-81 (N), you will come to the Fayette St exit for Shippensburg. Getting off here, the first side road to the right is "Woods Road". I believe the children could be buried in this general area. The vegetation is very similar to the photo, and Carlisle/Harrisburg is a quick trip up 81 north. Plus, there are roads paralleling I-81 that would make it convenient for someone looking for a burial site.

Red oak and honeysuckle are prevalent here, as it is on the west slope of South Mountain. On the east side, you have more rhododendron and pines. Many small streams flow here and the elevation gradually rises up the slopes of South Mountain. It is a big hiking area, and is dotted with many amish farms. Micheaux Forest also borders this side. I feel that if the area were leafletted with photos of the stone, someone might recognize it. Many people on foot and riding in buggies. I have seen a few likely spots myself.

As you know, Jay Smith was a Colonel in the Reserves in Carlisle. IMO, he would have been familiar enough with this area to direct someone here with the children. I hope we can find the site.

vallejo_dave · #**132** 03-05-2012, 07:13 PM

I would like to say that after reading all the material, I believe it is a very good possibility that the children are buried in one of 2 areas:

either along the East side of I-81 North between the Scotland and Newville exits, or along Route 30 West in Michieux State Forest or Caledonia State Park near Fayetteville.

Both areas have easy back access to the Host Inn area of Harrisburg. Take Route 30 East to I-83 North near Lancaster, or take I-81 North to Carlisle and access I-283 and I-83. I would appreciate any feedback on this. There are other state parks, and a few religious retreats in this area. (Pine Grove Furnace, Mt Alto, etc).

vallejo_dave · #**133** 05-10-2012, 09:40 PM

Another possibility---Rt 11 south out of Carlisle goes to intersection of rt 233 near Newville. Take rt 233 east and you will see signs for Pine Grove and Caledonia (which is adjacent to Fayetteville). You will also pass a place called Mt Asbury Retreat. There may be some stone markers there similar to the one in question.

Marilynilpa · #**134** 05-28-2012, 04:50 PM

I have been spending a quiet afternoon reading through this thread. I can't imagine why I haven't read about this tragic case before.

I live in SW Pa and plan to do a good amount of camping throughout Pa in the next couple of months. I will definitely carry a picure of the stone marker (or whatever it is) with me in case I see something that looks similar.

Now I'm off to search news archives to read up more about this case.