What if...

[Holdontoyourhat]

What if Leopold and Loeb were never found out. Under those circumstances, the crime would have similarities to the JBR murder.

First, a well-articulated ransom note is received. It demands money in exchange for Bobby Franks. The author makes arrangements for future contact.

Some time later, a victim is found with unusual injuries.

I'd imagine the ransom note would be studied for any hint or clue as to its author. Bobby Franks' body would be studied for any clues. People in close social proximity would be questioned, and some suspected.

What were Bobby Franks injuries, and did they contradict a kidnapping for ransom?

[Voice of Reason]

From crimelibrary.com...

On Friday the 23rd, the coroner's inquest was held. Dr. Joseph Springer had conducted the autopsy. Bobby Franks had died of suffocation, perhaps when his kidnapper held his hand over the boy's mouth or when he had shoved something down the boy's throat. There were a number of wounds on the boy's body which suggested that he had fought with his captor.

There were small wounds on the right and left sides of his head, plus bleeding and bruises from a blunt instrument on Bobby's forehead. Some chemical had been poured on his face and his penis. While there was some dilation of the rectum, Springer said that Bobby had not been sexually abused.

[Holdontoyourhat]

From Crimelibrary.com

When the telephone rang, "George Johnson" told Ettelson, "I am sending a Yellow Cab for you. Get in and go to the drugstore at 1465 East Sixty-third Street." Ettelson handed the phone to Jacob and the message was repeated. In the trauma of the events, both men immediately forgot the address of the drugstore.

[Holdontoyourhat]

What if, as an investigator in the Bobby Franks murder, all you had was the autopsy, phone call, and ransom note.

Maybe you would be wondering about that autopsy, the acid, and why the doctor went out of his way to discuss his rectum. You might be impressed at the writing quality of the ransom note.

Crimelibrary.com:

Given that the ransom note was written by someone well educated, the police focused upon three teachers at the Harvard School where Bobby Franks attended. They were taken to the police station and grilled for hours while their apartments were searched. One of the teachers was released, but the other two were kept in custody.

[Rupert]

If they had not found out Leopold & Loeb, I don't think the parents would have come under suspicion like the R's. The key difference is that Bobby Franks was outside of his house to begin with and was found outside.
It was an outside job.

Note also, Bobby Franks was found in a ditch with no blankie. Coincidently, the daughter of one of the R's helpers was found in a ditch only two weeks prior to JonBenet.

[Holdontoyourhat]

Originally Posted by Rupert

If they had not found out Leopold & Loeb, I don't think the parents would have come under suspicion like the R's. The key difference is that Bobby Franks was outside of his house to begin with and was found outside.
It was an outside job.

Note also, Bobby Franks was found in a ditch with no blankie. Coincidently, the daughter of one of the R's helpers was found in a ditch only two weeks prior to JonBenet.

My point has nothing to do with whether or not the Franks would come under suspicion. My point is that given the autopsy report, the ransom note, and phone call, investigators were in a very similar situation as they are with JBR.

Both have a well-articulated RN, and both bodies were found the same day with suspicious injuries that contradict an apparent kidnap for ransom motive.

[IrishMist]

Originally Posted by Holdontoyourhat

Both have a well-articulated RN, and both bodies were found the same day with suspicious injuries that contradict an apparent kidnap for ransom motive.

But they did call and did try to still get the money...

[Holdontoyourhat]

Originally Posted by IrishMist

But they did call and did try to still get the money...

Neither Franks nor the R's complied with their respective RN's. So we don't really know if JBR's killer wasn't trying to 'still get the money.'

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by Holdontoyourhat

My point has nothing to do with whether or not the Franks would come under suspicion. My point is that given the autopsy report, the ransom note, and phone call, investigators were in a very similar situation as they are with JBR.

Both have a well-articulated RN, and both bodies were found the same day with suspicious injuries that contradict an apparent kidnap for ransom motive.

I totally agree the notes are well articulated and even more seem to be related. That's what keeps me open minded in this case. Given the kidnap crime movie references in the JonBenet note, it would not surprise me that the Leopold and Loeb note was also part of the perp's repertoire. That makes me wonder how JR or PR could bring all that up after such an emotional event. Like Smit said, it seems to come from a perp who was prepared before hand.

However, you never know. PR was a journalist major and many of the studies by students in journalism are crimes such as Leopold and Loeb. After all, "Crimes of the Century" are simply made famous by the journalists.

Of course all that makes me think of other journalists such as McSanta and Wolf.

It's possible that the perp was a student of journalism.

[Holdontoyourhat]

Originally Posted by Rupert

I totally agree the notes are well articulated and even more seem to be related. That's what keeps me open minded in this case. Given the kidnap crime movie references in the JonBenet note, it would not surprise me that the Leopold and Loeb note was also part of the perp's repertoire. That makes me wonder how JR or PR could bring all that up after such an emotional event. Like Smit said, it seems to come from a perp who was prepared before hand.

However, you never know. PR was a journalist major and many of the studies by students in journalism are crimes such as Leopold and Loeb. After all, "Crimes of the Century" are simply made famous by the journalists.

Of course all that makes me think of other journalists such as McSanta and Wolf.

It's possible that the perp was a student of journalism.

It's possible. But its even more possible that the perp's a male sociopathic killer. IOW there's more evidence of an intellectual sociopathic killer, like a Nathan Leopold or a Richard Loeb or a Ted Kaczynski.

While there is considerable precedent for intellectual criminal writings by male sociopaths, there's no precedent for filicidal parents who use a garrote and write politically charged ransom notes to themselves.

[narlacat]

>> Coincidently, the daughter of one of the R's helpers was found in a ditch only two weeks prior to JonBenet.[/quote]<<

Rupert
I've never heard about this, could you fill me in a bit?
Thanks.

[IrishMist]

Originally Posted by Holdontoyourhat

Neither Franks nor the R's complied with their respective RN's. So we don't really know if JBR's killer wasn't trying to 'still get the money.'

I'm not sure what you mean here. L & L still attempted to get the money, even though they knew their victim was dead.

As far as I know, no one ever attempted to collect on the $118,000.

[tipper]

Originally Posted by IrishMist

I'm not sure what you mean here. L & L still attempted to get the money, even though they knew their victim was dead.

As far as I know, no one ever attempted to collect on the $118,000.

Although there were a couple of hang-up calls that morning.

[ellen13]

Originally Posted by narlacat

>> Coincidently, the daughter of one of the R's helpers was found in a ditch only two weeks prior to JonBenet.

<<

Rupert
I've never heard about this, could you fill me in a bit?
Thanks.[/quote]
Narla, what it a young girl? This is total news to me too! Wow, there's so much I don't know.

[IrishMist]

Originally Posted by tipper

Although there were a couple of hang-up calls that morning.

I hadn't heard that, Tipper. Can you tell me where to look? Thanks

[tipper]

Originally Posted by IrishMist

I hadn't heard that, Tipper. Can you tell me where to look? Thanks

I
think this is from the 1998 interviews:

20 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, yeah. We one hang up call
21 in the eight to ten period while we were waiting
22 for the call.
23 MNK: Did anybody track that one?
24 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't know.
25 DAN SHULER: I believe that it was Linda
0656
1 that reported in one of her reports, said that
2 prior to Christmas, you were getting some hang up
3 calls.
4 JOHN RAMSEY: We may have.
5 PATSY RAMSEY: We may have. I can't
6 remember.
7 DAN SHULER: You don't remember?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
9 DAN SHULER: I wasn't sure.

[IrishMist]

Thanks, Tipper. I'll read the interviews again. Sometimes my eyes glaze over when I'm reading those interviews... and sometimes I just plain forget stuff

[capps]

Originally Posted by tipper

I
think this is from the 1998 interviews:

20 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, yeah. We one hang up call
21 in the eight to ten period while we were waiting
22 for the call.
23 MNK: Did anybody track that one?
24 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't know.
25 DAN SHULER: I believe that it was Linda
0656
1 that reported in one of her reports, said that
2 prior to Christmas, you were getting some hang up
3 calls.
4 JOHN RAMSEY: We may have.
5 PATSY RAMSEY: We may have. I can't
6 remember.
7 DAN SHULER: You don't remember?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
9 DAN SHULER: I wasn't sure.

It's statements like above that put me back on the fence with John and Patsy.

I can accept an answer of "I don't recall getting any hang up calls prior to Christmas."

But, "We may have." I don't remember."

That to me is unexcusable. Either they had hang up calls or they didn't.If it means maybe having some kind of heads up to the death of my daughter,I sure as hell would make myself remember.

These are things that make me feel that there is something amiss.They know something.

Didn't Patsy's sister say on a talk show (I believe),that Patsy knows who the killer is?

What the heck is going on?

[Brefie]

What's going on is a Ramsey is getting away with murder and they make it look like child's play, IMO.

[capps]

I don't think JR or PR killed JonBenet.
I'm not 100% convinced they are part of a cover up.

But I get the distinct feeling they know more then what they're saying.

I would love to know what,and why they feel they can't come out with it.

[Brefie]

I am not entirely convinvced a parent is to blame, either......but they know.

Boy, do they know.

[narlacat]

Originally Posted by capps

It's statements like above that put me back on the fence with John and Patsy.

I can accept an answer of "I don't recall getting any hang up calls prior to Christmas."

But, "We may have." I don't remember."

That to me is unexcusable. Either they had hang up calls or they didn't.If it means maybe having some kind of heads up to the death of my daughter,I sure as hell would make myself remember.

These are things that make me feel that there is something amiss.They know something.

Didn't Patsy's sister say on a talk show (I believe),that Patsy knows who the killer is?

What the heck is going on?

Pam Paugh said she knew who the killer was. But that doesn't necassarily mean she really knows. It could just mean she THINKS she knows who the killer is.

[Holdontoyourhat]

Originally Posted by tipper

Although there were a couple of hang-up calls that morning.

Suppose the perp called between 8-10, JR delivered 118K as 'instructed,' and the perp got away. Would the crime have taken the top ( I should say bottom) spot from L & L as 'crime of the century'?

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by narlacat

>> Coincidently, the daughter of one of the R's helpers was found in a ditch only two weeks prior to JonBenet.

<<

Rupert
I've never heard about this, could you fill me in a bit?
Thanks.[/quote]

Google out Lorain Lawrence (found in a ditch with a battered face and plywood covering her) and her mother Geraldine Vodicka ho used to work for the R's.

Coroner says that Lorain got drunk, fell in a ditch and battered her face, and somehow managed to cover herself with plywood. Well?

Maybe another baseball bat?

Also, interviews with Vodicka suggested that PR did not want to hire women prettier than herself. Guess why?

[sandraladeda]

Okay, I'll bite. Why?