Separating FACT from fiction

[JMO8778]

Originally Posted by DeeDee249

Some of the sites have diagrams of the basement rooms. I saw where the light switches for the wineceller were IN the room, just inside the doorway but much lower on the wall than usual. Switches are placed at standard heights from the floor, but this was not the case with the one in this room. So someone unfamiliar might feel around in the dark for a light switch, but they'd never find it. It was down around knee height. I totally believe FW. And some of us believe she wasn't in there then anyway. I think when JR went down after FW he moved her in there from where she was hidden. Maybe in the unplugged freezer. Maybe she was in the wineceller, but hidden behind some of the debris in the room. But she couldn't have been where she was later found, because IMO even if FW couldn't turn on a light in that room, there would be SOME light spilling in from the room just outside. Enough to see a white blanket, even if you couldn't see the body inside. He wasn't stumbling around in a pitch-black basement, after all. He would have put some lights on.

there are also diagrams in PMPT,the book.I believe FW as well.It was said she had an odor about her body,so maybe that was from the freezer or from someplace else.In DOI,JR seems to be trying to account for something when he says checked the large walk-in refridgerator.

[Ames]

Originally Posted by DeeDee249

Some of the sites have diagrams of the basement rooms. I saw where the light switches for the wineceller were IN the room, just inside the doorway but much lower on the wall than usual. Switches are placed at standard heights from the floor, but this was not the case with the one in this room. So someone unfamiliar might feel around in the dark for a light switch, but they'd never find it. It was down around knee height. I totally believe FW. And some of us believe she wasn't in there then anyway. I think when JR went down after FW he moved her in there from where she was hidden. Maybe in the unplugged freezer. Maybe she was in the wineceller, but hidden behind some of the debris in the room. But she couldn't have been where she was later found, because IMO even if FW couldn't turn on a light in that room, there would be SOME light spilling in from the room just outside. Enough to see a white blanket, even if you couldn't see the body inside. He wasn't stumbling around in a pitch-black basement, after all. He would have put some lights on.

I agree...I believe that John moved her, to where she could be found more easily. He had no idea that he was going to be asked to search the house. He saw that the police obviously weren't going to find her, and wanted to get it over with....so, he moved her out to the middle of the room, so she could be found faster. Funny how, when asked to search the house to see if anything was out of place...that he heads straight to the basement. She disappeared from HER ROOM....so, why didn't he search there first?

[Ames]

Originally Posted by JMO8778

there are also diagrams in PMPT,the book.I believe FW as well.It was said she had an odor about her body,so maybe that was from the freezer or from someplace else.In DOI,JR seems to be trying to account for something when he says checked the large walk-in refridgerator.

Probably his recent fingerprints on the handle.

[JMO8778]

Originally Posted by Ames

Probably his recent fingerprints on the handle.

that makes me wonder if they'd thought about putting her in there...and esp.if she was still alive then? so it could look like she wandered into it and couldn't get out,thereby suffocating to death? ..would have to be bf the head blow occured though,to be believable.

[Ames]

Originally Posted by JMO8778

that makes me wonder if they'd thought about putting her in there...and esp.if she was still alive then? so it could look like she wandered into it and couldn't get out,thereby suffocating to death? ..would have to be bf the head blow occured though,to be believable.

Could be, I kinda tend to think that she was hid there though...after all of the other staging. I think that she was placed in there probably after the garotting, and paintbrush insertion...and then when John realized that the Keystone cops were not going to find her body....and hours and minutes were ticking on by....he went down there, when he went to go and check on "his mail"...and moved her body out in the open.

[JMO8778]

Originally Posted by Ames

Could be, I kinda tend to think that she was hid there though...after all of the other staging. I think that she was placed in there probably after the garotting, and paintbrush insertion...and then when John realized that the Keystone cops were not going to find her body....and hours and minutes were ticking on by....he went down there, when he went to go and check on "his mail"...and moved her body out in the open.

could be,but I don't know if he's talking about the same thing..it was said there was a freezer in the basement..he says he ck'ed a walk in fridge..so I wonder if that was in the butler's kitchen.

[Ames]

Originally Posted by JMO8778

could be,but I don't know if he's talking about the same thing..it was said there was a freezer in the basement..he says he ck'ed a walk in fridge..so I wonder if that was in the butler's kitchen.

LOL...who knows WHAT he is talking about??? I personally have never seen or heard of a walk in fridge before....but, maybe they make them. I remember reading that, and I thought that he meant he checked the freezer, because he said that they were always afraid that one of the kids might get locked in there, when they were playing around in the basement.

[coloradokares]

Originally Posted by Ames

LOL...who knows WHAT he is talking about??? I personally have never seen or heard of a walk in fridge before....but, maybe they make them. I remember reading that, and I thought that he meant he checked the freezer, because he said that they were always afraid that one of the kids might get locked in there, when they were playing around in the basement.

Lots of homes in that area could have a "walk in fridge" you literally walk in them as a small refrigerated room why a family of four needed one they were huge on entertaining ?

[JMO8778]

Originally Posted by coloradokares

Lots of homes in that area could have a "walk in fridge" you literally walk in them as a small refrigerated room why a family of four needed one they were huge on entertaining ?

I'm guessing that's it,the butler kitchen was just for that.

[Ames]

Originally Posted by JMO8778

I'm guessing that's it,the butler kitchen was just for that.

Oh okay. All this time I thought that he was talking about checking the freezer in the basement, because he said that he was always afraid that they would get trapped in there. I guess they could get trapped just as easily in a walk in fridge. I would LOVE to have one of those....cool!!

[DeeDee249]

The "odor about her" was an odor of decay first mentioned by LA. She noticed it as soon as she was brought up from the basement. In one of her earlier statements, she mentions that JBR was obviously dead, as she was in full rigor with arms straight over her head with no support. She was white, her lips were blue and there was an odor of decay.
It was about approximately 12 hours from JBR's death to the time LA saw JR coming up from the basement holding her straight up, using the generally accepted time of death of around midnight. Decomposition starts in less than half an hour, and that odor begins in as little as 3-4 hours with a body indoors, even in a cool basement.

[JMO8778]

Thx,Dee,I didn't know that.I thought perhaps the cool would keep her from decomposing to that degree.

[Ames]

Originally Posted by JMO8778

Thx,Dee,I didn't know that.I thought perhaps the cool would keep her from decomposing to that degree.

So did I.

[DeeDee249]

Yes, to a degree. Decomposition starts INSIDE a corpse first. Nearly always in the intestine area, where bacteria are plentiful. That starts to take place as soon as oxygen replenishment in the cells stops with the cessation of breathing. Anaerobic bacteria begin activity immediatele. I didn't mean the type of decomposition you were thinking of. Yes, in a cool basement it would take a few days at least.
But the type that would cause the "odor of decay" that LA detected would certainly have begun by 12 hours after death.
The autopsy noted "autolysis" in a few areas. Autolysis is self-digestion by an organ- it occurs when the organ is denied nutrients, glucose etc. which in life is delivered by the blood. With death, blood stops circulating right away. And the blood remaining in the vessels is depleted of oxygen.

[luvl8829]

[anne11]

I read that the basement was too warm and that a window was often left open to cool it off, even in winter. The higher temprature would advance decay and bad odeur (sp?).

[DeeDee249]

Originally Posted by anne11

I read that the basement was too warm and that a window was often left open to cool it off, even in winter. The higher temprature would advance decay and bad odeur (sp?).

Yes, but in this case it wasn't so warm that it would be a factor. The window that was left open was in the room where the boiler/furnace was, and it was that room which got too warm; I think the wineceller was cooler. There WAS an "odor of decay" on JBR when she was brought up, according to Det. Arndt.
She had been dead about 12 hours at that point, according to the autopsy, as suggested by the stage of rigor mortis apparent. After death, the bacteria already present in the intestines causes that part of the body to begin to decompose first. There will be a definite greenish color to the abdomen visible over that area if the body has begun that stage of decomposition, and in warmer surroundings that should have begun after 12 hours, especially since there was another 7-8 hours in the living room exposed at room temperature before she went to the morgue. There was no mention of her abdomen being discolored, but the autopsy mentions "soft green fecal material" in the lower digestive tract. I base my opinion about the temperature of the wineceller on the fact that there was no mention of discoloration of the abdomen. The coroner arrived around 8pm, after that she was taken to the morgue and the refrigeration would delay further decomposition.

[JMO8778]

Deedee,is there any reason why decomposition as such would not occur,or at least,not in a timely manner,(other than being exposed to cold temps).i.e.-could it be delayed for other reasons? I'm reminded of the incorrupt bodies of the saints,although,IMO,there is no earthly explanation for that.Just thought I'd ask,(I'm not implying JB was a saint,of course,she was an innocent child).

[DeeDee249]

Originally Posted by JMO8778

Deedee,is there any reason why decomposition as such would not occur,or at least,not in a timely manner,(other than being exposed to cold temps).i.e.-could it be delayed for other reasons? I'm reminded of the incorrupt bodies of the saints,although,IMO,there is no earthly explanation for that.Just thought I'd ask,(I'm not implying JB was a saint,of course,she was an innocent child).

Interesting you brought that point up. I was just discussing that very thing. I'll PM you.

[anne11]

Please could someone tell me where the "chronic" abuse was mentioned, I've forgotten where I read it.

[SuperDave]

Originally Posted by anne11

Please could someone tell me where the "chronic" abuse was mentioned, I've forgotten where I read it.

No sweat, anne11. It's mentioned on pages 557 and 560 of "Perfect Murder, Perfect Town," the beginning of chapter 24 in Thomas's book, the Ann Bardach "Vanity Fair" article, in a 2006 FOXNews interview, in Wendy Murphy's book "And Justice For Some), in Haney's interview with Patsy, just to name a few.

[anne11]

Thank you SuperDave

[SuperDave]

Originally Posted by anne11

Thank you SuperDave

My pleasure.

[It's Not the Nanny]

I'm so completely and utterly new to this forum.....found my way here via Caylee Anthony.....and remember years ago being intrigued by the death of JBR.


In recent months, it was celebrated all over the news that the new DNA testing proved the Ramsey's had nothing to do with it.

Can someone catch me up on why that isn't true (obviously, or you wouldn't all be still discussing this). I completely believed the media reports and finally cleared the R's in my head once that report had come out.

I've closely been following the Caylee case and found a link here and was in awe that so many STILL don't believe the parents of JBR had nothing to do with this ... why?? What in the new DNA testing and the Boulder police clearing of them isn't putting you all at ease?

[DeeDee249]

Originally Posted by It's Not the Nanny

I'm so completely and utterly new to this forum.....found my way here via Caylee Anthony.....and remember years ago being intrigued by the death of JBR.


In recent months, it was celebrated all over the news that the new DNA testing proved the Ramsey's had nothing to do with it.

Can someone catch me up on why that isn't true (obviously, or you wouldn't all be still discussing this). I completely believed the media reports and finally cleared the R's in my head once that report had come out.

I've closely been following the Caylee case and found a link here and was in awe that so many STILL don't believe the parents of JBR had nothing to do with this ... why?? What in the new DNA testing and the Boulder police clearing of them isn't putting you all at ease?

There is WAY too much for us to catch you up on. I can suggest reading 1 or 2 books. They are a quick read. Read "JonBenet & The City of Boulder" by Steve Thomas (available in paperback online and also in bookstores) and rent the DVD of "Perfect Murder, Perfect Town". It is not too long, and will give you a very good feel for the characters and house. I got mine on Netflix, but I am sure you'd find it elsewhere. Go to the website :
http://www.acandyrose.com
There is TONS of info there, including interviews with the Ramseys, photos of the house, the autopsy report, etc.