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JonBenet Ramsey What really happened to 6 year old JonBenet? Someone is getting away with murder. All information posted on this site is gained through published documentation on this case. It is strictly opinion only.


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  #1  
Old 07-07-2006, 11:16 PM
shiloh shiloh is offline
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Analysis of a different sort

I had a small book on handwriting analysis when I was a teenager. I don't remember very much about it, except that it said that sharply pointed letters to the left indicated a cruel person, and that the way I wrote certain letters indicated that I am creative (which is true), and that the way a friend wrote certain letters indicated that she was very traditionally minded, which was also true.

For whatever it's worth, I thought this was interesting. It's an analysis of the handwriting characteristics of the ransom note.

http://www.trialrun.com/id4u/profile...t_ramsey2.html
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  #2  
Old 07-07-2006, 11:42 PM
Holdontoyourhat Holdontoyourhat is offline
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Interesting read, but most of the peculiarites in the handwriting can actually be attributed to the writer struggling to form the characters of the English alphabet.

IOW, not all the distortions can be attributed to personality. Many are likely due to tendencies carried over from the writer's native language.
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  #3  
Old 07-07-2006, 11:44 PM
shiloh shiloh is offline
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Oh, that's right. It was a small foreign faction that was responsible for this. I'm sorry, I forgot.
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  #4  
Old 07-07-2006, 11:48 PM
Holdontoyourhat Holdontoyourhat is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiloh
Oh, that's right. It was a small foreign faction that was responsible for this. I'm sorry, I forgot.
That's OK, everybody's made that mistake.
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  #5  
Old 07-07-2006, 11:50 PM
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LinasK LinasK is offline
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Thumbs down

Quote:
Originally Posted by Holdontoyourhat
Interesting read, but most of the peculiarites in the handwriting can actually be attributed to the writer struggling to form the characters of the English alphabet.

IOW, not all the distortions can be attributed to personality. Many are likely due to tendencies carried over from the writer's native language.
Sorry HOH, I'm not buying it. Most foreign languages with the exception of (Asian language families-symbolic- like Chinese, Japanese and Korean, Slavic languages families like Russian, or middle-Eastern languages- Hebrew, Arabic, Aramaic), use the same Roman alphabet that we do.

And FWIW, my mother-in-law also does handwriting analysis for a hobby, and had told me that there is a distinctive characteristic called a criminal's claw. She also told me that my handwriting displayed creative characteristics.
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  #6  
Old 07-08-2006, 12:45 AM
shiloh shiloh is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Holdontoyourhat
Interesting read, but most of the peculiarites in the handwriting can actually be attributed to the writer struggling to form the characters of the English alphabet.

IOW, not all the distortions can be attributed to personality. Many are likely due to tendencies carried over from the writer's native language.
I didn't see your theory posted on the theories thread. I'd be interested in reading it when you have the time.
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  #7  
Old 07-08-2006, 08:10 AM
Paradox Paradox is offline
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People with split personality syndrome can exhibit different handwriting styles when in different personalities.
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  #8  
Old 07-08-2006, 08:10 AM
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Welllll

Quote:
Originally Posted by Holdontoyourhat
Interesting read, but most of the peculiarites in the handwriting can actually be attributed to the writer struggling to form the characters of the English alphabet.

IOW, not all the distortions can be attributed to personality. Many are likely due to tendencies carried over from the writer's native language.


HOH, I can believe the struggling part, since Patsy was ambidextrous, an artist and most likely the foreign faction, 'in person'.

Big question WHY would a foreign faction even write a rambling ransom note? Why would just a foreign 'person' who was not part of a 'faction' write a long ransom note? WHY would the killer even mention that he was part of a foreign faction, why bother?

Why didn't the killer write the note ? (misnomer here, a note is typically short and sweet, AND to the point) on home made papyrus OR a plain brown grocery bag?

Sounds like a young inexperienced, or old inexperienced person in writing ransom letters/notes for a foreign faction.

There were no foreign discrepancies in sentence structure that I perceived anyway. That might be the hardest part of writing a 'literate note, I'd give the killer/note writer* an A for sentence structure.

*Possibility exists that the killer and writer of the note most likely not the same person. Thats just one of my theoretical thoughts.

.
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  #9  
Old 07-08-2006, 09:39 AM
UKGuy UKGuy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Camper
HOH, I can believe the struggling part, since Patsy was ambidextrous, an artist and most likely the foreign faction, 'in person'.

Big question WHY would a foreign faction even write a rambling ransom note? Why would just a foreign 'person' who was not part of a 'faction' write a long ransom note? WHY would the killer even mention that he was part of a foreign faction, why bother?

Why didn't the killer write the note ? (misnomer here, a note is typically short and sweet, AND to the point) on home made papyrus OR a plain brown grocery bag?

Sounds like a young inexperienced, or old inexperienced person in writing ransom letters/notes for a foreign faction.

There were no foreign discrepancies in sentence structure that I perceived anyway. That might be the hardest part of writing a 'literate note, I'd give the killer/note writer* an A for sentence structure.

*Possibility exists that the killer and writer of the note most likely not the same person. Thats just one of my theoretical thoughts.

.
Camper,

I tend to agree with you.

Quote:
*Possibility exists that the killer and writer of the note most likely not the same person.
I reckon John and Patsy were engaged in some form of conspiracy to which Burke was added later, in an attempt to make their statements consistent.

There are some simple inferences that can be made with respect to both the ransom note and the staging, some of which you have made relating to the ransom note, e.g. sentence structure, syntax, its length.

I think this rules out Burke as the author, he may be bright and/or enjoyed a good education, but at 9 or 10-years old, that ransom note is not Burke speaking.

The intent , planning, and time it would take to write such a ransom note indicates how serious the author was in wishing to influence peoples perceptions.

The killer probably never wrote the note because the kidnapping scenario was not the killers preferred staging, the ransom note was likely authored by the same person who wanted to see JonBenet dressed in her Barbie Gown as befitting a girl abducted sleeping from her bed.

A prior staging, getting the sequence correct is difficult, was probably done by Patsy, and unless the forensic evidence is bogus, she is linked directly with this aspect, this staging is less of an abduction, and more evocative of a lust murder.

Due to the mixed clothing on JonBenet you can infer a further prior staging, with less degree of confidence, say an initial stage, where JonBenet was redressed so to remove incriminating forensic evidence?

So knowing that although JonBenet's corpse was discovered in the wine-cellar, its very likely she was not murdered there, but elsewhere in the house, all these elements , e.g. ransom note, prior staging, wine-cellar staging, suggest a change of plan, its possible that the foreign faction never managed to complete their staging, and the prior staging features, sexual assault were promoted to portray this homicide as the work of an intruder.

The framework or schema of stagings may be incorrect in detail or sequence, but the general thrust that there was some form of coverup and conspiracy, seems to me undeniable.

.
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  #10  
Old 07-08-2006, 10:46 AM
shiloh shiloh is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UKGuy
Due to the mixed clothing on JonBenet you can infer a further prior staging, with less degree of confidence, say an initial stage, where JonBenet was redressed so to remove incriminating forensic evidence?

So knowing that although JonBenet's corpse was discovered in the wine-cellar, its very likely she was not murdered there, but elsewhere in the house, all these elements , e.g. ransom note, prior staging, wine-cellar staging, suggest a change of plan, its possible that the foreign faction never managed to complete their staging, and the prior staging features, sexual assault were promoted to portray this homicide as the work of an intruder.


.
I remember hearing a number of years ago that Patsy said that JBR was wearing different clothing when she was put to bed from what she was wearing when she was found the next morning, but then she denied ever making this statement. My supposition is that this is something she said to one of the officers that morning.

I agree with you that she probably wasn't killed in the wine cellar. The fact that her arms were over her head indicates to me that she was either dragged there by one person, or there was a second person helping to move her while holding onto her ankles.

I disagree that the sexual assault was staging. The autopsy report indicates to me that she was killed during the sexual assault, and was already dying from the strangulation at the time she was bludgeoned.
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  #11  
Old 07-08-2006, 11:03 AM
Holdontoyourhat Holdontoyourhat is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LinasK
Sorry HOH, I'm not buying it. Most foreign languages with the exception of (Asian language families-symbolic- like Chinese, Japanese and Korean, Slavic languages families like Russian, or middle-Eastern languages- Hebrew, Arabic, Aramaic), use the same Roman alphabet that we do.

And FWIW, my mother-in-law also does handwriting analysis for a hobby, and had told me that there is a distinctive characteristic called a criminal's claw. She also told me that my handwriting displayed creative characteristics.
'Most foreign languages with the exception of Chinese,' is like saying 'most coffee with the exception of Columbian'.
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  #12  
Old 07-08-2006, 11:59 AM
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"That's OK, everybody's made that mistake."

I'll make the glib remarks, thanks!

"So knowing that although JonBenet's corpse was discovered in the wine-cellar, its very likely she was not murdered there, but elsewhere in the house, all these elements , e.g. ransom note, prior staging, wine-cellar staging, suggest a change of plan, its possible that the foreign faction never managed to complete their staging, and the prior staging features, sexual assault were promoted to portray this homicide as the work of an intruder."

Crime scenes are not inconsistent. And this one was: a jumbled, confused mess of conflicting motives and contradictory m.o.'s
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  #13  
Old 07-08-2006, 12:08 PM
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Hmmm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Holdontoyourhat
'Most foreign languages with the exception of Chinese,' is like saying 'most coffee with the exception of Columbian'.


HOH, hee hee. Humorous and thoughtful rebut. You would need some test tubes and lab equipment to test them coffees out. Some of them beans might have Juans fingerprints onem.

.
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  #14  
Old 07-09-2006, 02:55 PM
Eagle1 Eagle1 is offline
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Handwriting Analysis

In handwriting analysis, what might a criminal's claw look like?
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Old 07-09-2006, 06:55 PM
shiloh shiloh is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eagle1
In handwriting analysis, what might a criminal's claw look like?
I was curious about that too. I searched for that phrase on the internet, but there weren't any hits.

Here's some information from the linked article. Maybe it's referring to something like this:

"Tics suggest anger, hostility, irritability and frustration, depending on their relative strength when compared to other writing strokes."

"Loops or circle, letters ("g" and "y" top's and bottom's of loops, "o's", "a's) that have a squared or angled look suggest a lack of sensitivity to others' feelings and may indicate a harsh, crude, and/or brutal individual or someone with a lack of empathy and a critical attitude, when found in combination with other indications of dangerousness."

"Angled circle letters also imply internal tension or frustration. Again the angularity grows with the level of anxiety and anger."

It also refers to the weapon-shape of many of the letters in the note.
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  #16  
Old 07-10-2006, 12:08 PM
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I have to admit, that "criminal's claw" business has me stumped.
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  #17  
Old 07-10-2006, 02:52 PM
curious1 curious1 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperDave
I have to admit, that "criminal's claw" business has me stumped.
We may have to remove the 'Super' from your name.
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  #18  
Old 07-10-2006, 03:36 PM
rashomon rashomon is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Holdontoyourhat
Interesting read, but most of the peculiarites in the handwriting can actually be attributed to the writer struggling to form the characters of the English alphabet.

IOW, not all the distortions can be attributed to personality. Many are likely due to tendencies carried over from the writer's native language.
But Holdontoyourhat, keep in mind that not even the Ramseys themselves ever said that there was a 'small foreign faction' at work here after Lou Smit outlined his lone pedophile killer scenario.
The Ramseys placed three red herrings in their staging (political terrorists/ kidnapping for money/ sexual predator) hoping that at least one would be swallowed.
And avid Ramsey advocates obviously swallowed all three red herrings without getting any stomachache from the inherent contradictions.
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Old 07-10-2006, 07:31 PM
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Originally Posted by curious1
We may have to remove the 'Super' from your name.
Funny. But "Doing-My-BestDave was too long a title! Lol Seriously, even I don't know everything.

Maybe they don't get indigestion, rashomon, but I sure do!
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  #20  
Old 07-11-2006, 09:23 PM
Holdontoyourhat Holdontoyourhat is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LinasK
Sorry HOH, I'm not buying it. Most foreign languages with the exception of (Asian language families-symbolic- like Chinese, Japanese and Korean, Slavic languages families like Russian, or middle-Eastern languages- Hebrew, Arabic, Aramaic), use the same Roman alphabet that we do.
Please clarify your post for me, if you wouldn't mind.
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  #21  
Old 07-11-2006, 09:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Holdontoyourhat
Interesting read, but most of the peculiarites in the handwriting can actually be attributed to the writer struggling to form the characters of the English alphabet.

IOW, not all the distortions can be attributed to personality. Many are likely due to tendencies carried over from the writer's native language.

But the language/grammatical structures showed no grammatical carry-overs from a foreign language. Very hard to do even for fluent English speakers, there is almost always a certain phrasing, if not an outright English grammatical error, that betrays the native language.

Linguistic experts can pick out those traces. (So can any good ESL teacher in a city with students from many backgrounds, I can pick out several myself, and that with average experience.)

So where are the other traces of a non-English speaker? If forming the English letters are so difficult, there will be heavy evidence of a non-English native language speaker/writer. You cannot have it both ways, if the physical effort is so conscious, the language would be even more so.

Please don't make me drag out all the language buzzwords, technical terms, and research theories. I have my ESL certification, but it was painful enough to learn all the "technical stuff" without making anyone else endure it as well. (phoneme, anyone?)
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  #22  
Old 07-11-2006, 09:52 PM
Holdontoyourhat Holdontoyourhat is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Texana
But the language/grammatical structures showed no grammatical carry-overs from a foreign language. Very hard to do even for fluent English speakers, there is almost always a certain phrasing, if not an outright English grammatical error, that betrays the native language.

Linguistic experts can pick out those traces. (So can any good ESL teacher in a city with students from many backgrounds, I can pick out several myself, and that with average experience.)

So where are the other traces of a non-English speaker? If forming the English letters are so difficult, there will be heavy evidence of a non-English native language speaker/writer. You cannot have it both ways, if the physical effort is so conscious, the language would be even more so.

Please don't make me drag out all the language buzzwords, technical terms, and research theories. I have my ESL certification, but it was painful enough to learn all the "technical stuff" without making anyone else endure it as well. (phoneme, anyone?)
The perp may have spoken English since childhood, but doesn't write it. Many foreign people speak English but don't write very well. I never said the perp was a non-English speaker. The perp's English writing is appalling, though.
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Old 07-11-2006, 10:05 PM
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Hmmm

Texana, I just bought two copies of the book in your signature line. Will read one on my flight to DC this weekend.

If you would like to PM me with info on your connection and interest in this book I would appreciate it.

.
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  #24  
Old 07-11-2006, 10:22 PM
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LinasK LinasK is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Holdontoyourhat
Please clarify your post for me, if you wouldn't mind.
Unless you're going to suggest that the perp's native written language was one of the ones that use foreign characters such as the ones I suggested (Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Russian, Hebrew, Arabic, Aramaic, or such...), pretty much all other foreign languages that I can think of use the same Roman alphabet characters that we do, even French in which the spoken language is nothing like the written language!
I am a former linguist and Speech-Language Pathologist, so go ahead and use the word phoneme Texana!
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  #25  
Old 07-12-2006, 12:43 AM
Holdontoyourhat Holdontoyourhat is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LinasK
Unless you're going to suggest that the perp's native written language was one of the ones that use foreign characters such as the ones I suggested (Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Russian, Hebrew, Arabic, Aramaic, or such...), pretty much all other foreign languages that I can think of use the same Roman alphabet characters that we do, even French in which the spoken language is nothing like the written language!
I am going to suggest the perp's native written language is 'one of the ones.'

Its worth noting that 5 of 6 countries on the State Dept's list of states that sponsor terrorism are 'one of the ones'.

Country Designation Date </FONT>

Cuba

March 1, 1982

Iran

January 19, 1984

Libya

December 29, 1979

North Korea

January 20, 1988

Sudan

August 12, 1993

Syria

December 29, 1979

Last edited by Holdontoyourhat; 07-12-2006 at 09:47 AM.
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