WA WA - Elma - AsianFem 330UFWA, ~28, Gold Earring w/5 Blue Sapphires, Oct'88

[docwho3]

" . . .The victim was found in a remote wooded area, off a logging road north of Elma, WA on October 24, 1988. She was shot in the head. . ."
http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/330ufwa.html


" . . .A mushroom picker found her remains in the Elma woods in 1988. The young woman was shot in the head. Most of her bones are still in an evidence box in the Sheriff’s Office in Montesano. . ."
http://www.thedailyworld.com/article...ews/01news.txt

" . . . due to the fact that only half her skull was recovered. . . ."

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Grays Harbor, Washington John Doe (cont...)

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Grays Harbor, Washington John Doe (cont...)

[outofthedark]

The Doe Network:
Case File 330UFWA







Unidentified Native or Asian Female

• The victim was discovered on October 24, 1988 in Elma, Grays Harbor County, Washington.
• Estimated date of death is between 1982 - 1987
• Skeletal remains
• She was a victim of homicide

Vital Statistics

• Estimated age: 28 years old
• Approximate Height and Weight: 5'0"; 100 lbs.
• Distinguishing Characteristics: Dark brown hair. Healed fracture on left tibia.
• Dentals: #18 and #19 extracted, #20 DO amalgam.
• Clothing: She was wearing a Loren Scott blue shirt, Venezia brand black pants, white multi colored blouse with floral pattern, dark blue Woodbridge brand slip-ons size 6 1/2. Shoes were only worn a few days. Pearl with silver setting ring, size 6, sold by Avon during winter of 1981. Gold earring with 5 blue sapphires, french post style, possibly Asian manufacture.

Case History
The victim was found in a remote wooded area, off a logging road north of Elma, WA on October 24, 1988. She was shot in the head.



Investigators
If you have any information about this case please contact:
Grays Harbor Sheriffs Department
360-249-3711
You may remain anonymous when submitting information.

Agency Case Number:
88-2281

NCIC Number:
U-334293337
Please refer to this number when contacting any agency with information regarding this case.


Doe Network Case: http://doenetwork.us/cases/330ufwa.html


Regarding a name- should we call her "Elma"?

[docwho3]

Any Possible connection to David Gerard killings?

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/..._dna30ww.shtml

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...ective09m.html

His murders although known for violence were evidently varied as to methods, fire, run over somone, stab, hammer attack but I remembered one remark made by cold case man:
" . . . due to the fact that only half her skull was recovered. . . ."
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sho...&postcount=517

And I wondered why only half the skull was found. . . just animals action or violent attack besides having been shot or what?

Also I note another bone break on the body had been noted and wondered if thats a sign of past abuse or accident or what?
". . . Healed fracture on left tibia. . . ."
http://www.doenetwork.us/cases/330ufwa.html


And what became of that trophy box?
" . . . He was also jealous, possessive and secretive, Cochran said. When she peeked into a little metal box he'd forbidden her to open, she saw a newspaper article about a family that had been killed in a fire and pictures of women.. . ."
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...ective09m.html

[scandi]

I am sitting here in awe at what I have just read, including the Seattle Times article dated last February. Tenacity plus a lot of heart. I am so proud to know you and have you here as a member of Websleuths, Coldcaseman.

Taking a look at our Jane Doe from her clay sculpture, I can see it was a hard one to do. As an artist, I always look at the features individually as well as the work as a whole. The face has a general schematic to follow, and hers was quite different.

Two things struck me that were unusual about her face. Her eyes were quite small and close together. And the jaw of her face didn't match the eyes in that it was quite broad and angular if you were to look at the bones beneath it from which I can see it was constructed. Working with half a skull would be difficult, and depending on which part was left to work with and what was missing might give the answer to why I see what I do.

That is why I think she has been dubbed as Asian/Native American. The placement of the eyes so close prompts me to ask if this was a part of the skull that was missing. I think in real life she was much softer looking and though her eyes might have been close, think she had more flesh to round out her cheek to jaw line. I definately see her as Oriental, as I've never seen eyes look like that on an American Indian. The jaw line yes, not the eyes, and that is where the difference lies.

I was struck right away regarding the dissimilarity of her jewelry. The Avon ring means she ran in regular everyday circles of the working class who are happy to buy and wear it. When a cosmetic company starts selling jewelry, you know it is to augment the sale of their main source of income - the cosmetics. I think she bought it herself and liked it because she wore it.

Compare that to a 5 stone sapphire earing that is so unusual and special that it makes you wonder why there was such a dicotomy with her jewelry. And it makes me think it was a gift, a very special one. Back in the 80's was when women could wear one earing and it was kind on an 'in' thing, and often she would have 2 holes in one ear and 1 in the other. A mix and variety to make a statement for her individuality.

Where would that special earing come from. It might tell a lot about who she was involved with. Was she used to getting lovely gifts from people? It is out of cinque with wearing slip on shoes, even if they were new.

I hate to go on record with an assesment in my first post, as I could be wrong, but could she have been a prostitute from say, Olympia, who crossed her pimp and paid the price by being executed in the woods? Elma is what, half way to Aberdeen from Olympia - a half an hour ride in a car. A possibility, but I'd sure investigate the earing itself. A bad pic of it, and naturally would love to see the design and quality.

Hey Doc, thanks for the thread!


Scandi

[outofthedark]

I think she's Asian- she doesn't look Native to me

[scandi]

Oh good. That is what I see too! But if you covered her face from the tip of the nose up, you might think American Indian.

PS: Her mouth looks Asian to me and her nose with those big nostrils, don't know what to make of those. Eyes and expression, definately Asian.

What? Vietnamese? Korean? Not Chinese or Japanese, right?



Scandi

[coldcaseman]

Originally Posted by docwho3

Any Possible connection to David Gerard killings?

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/..._dna30ww.shtml

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...ective09m.html

His murders although known for violence were evidently varied as to methods, fire, run over somone, stab, hammer attack but I remembered one remark made by cold case man:
" . . . due to the fact that only half her skull was recovered. . . ."
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sho...&postcount=517

And I wondered why only half the skull was found. . . just animals action or violent attack besides having been shot or what?

Also I note another bone break on the body had been noted and wondered if thats a sign of past abuse or accident or what?
". . . Healed fracture on left tibia. . . ."
http://www.doenetwork.us/cases/330ufwa.html


And what became of that trophy box?
" . . . He was also jealous, possessive and secretive, Cochran said. When she peeked into a little metal box he'd forbidden her to open, she saw a newspaper article about a family that had been killed in a fire and pictures of women.. . ."
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...ective09m.html

Gerard hasn't been excluded as a suspect. Her jaw was broken peri mortem (at the time of death) and she was shot in the head. Animals scattered the body, and half of her skull was never recovered. The eyes are set close together on the clay sculpture, but it a guess based on whe remaining skull. A forensic anthropologist said she could either be Native American or South East Asian based on the shape of the skull. Fliers were sent to every tribe in the US (and there are a lot of them) and to the RCMP. She was found in a wooded area known for chantrelle mushrooms, and we have had many Asians picking mushrooms. She was 200 feet from the end of a logging road spur, five miles back into the woods from the nearest paved road. She may have been a prostitute, but she was wearing nearly new shoes, and was taken out into the middle of the woods. The box mentioned in the article that Gerard had was never located. He was only charged with the one murder. Other cases are still under investigation.

[scandi]

A mushroompicker can wander far without even noticing the time andlocation.
She follows the mushrooms. But she would not have been wearing virtually new shoes to go out and pick. You said logging spur road - dirt I assume. Is that a drivable road where she could have been driven to almost the end of, yanked out of the car and hit, then shot?

She certainly didn't expect to be there at that time with those shoes on. And as for picking mushrooms, would you go with jewelry on, esp a ring. I would think it would get in the way.

Chantrelles are only found on a certain spot in the slope of a hill, facing the correct side of light. Can't remember exactly, but they grow in a ring around a raised slope, like a hill.


Scandi

[coldcaseman]

Originally Posted by scandi

A mushroompicker can wander far without even noticing the time andlocation.
She follows the mushrooms. But she would not have been wearing virtually new shoes to go out and pick. You said logging spur road - dirt I assume. Is that a drivable road where she could have been driven to almost the end of, yanked out of the car and hit, then shot?

She certainly didn't expect to be there at that time with those shoes on. And as for picking mushrooms, would you go with jewelry on, esp a ring. I would think it would get in the way.

Chantrelles are only found on a certain spot in the slope of a hill, facing the correct side of light. Can't remember exactly, but they grow in a ring around a raised slope, like a hill.


Scandi

You could drive to the end of the road, it was gravel. The clothing and jewelry didn't fit a mushroom picker, but you never know. One theory is that a couple were out in the woods picking mushrooms, got into a fight, and the male kills his wife/girlfriend. The male moves away, and anyone who knew the couple might have thought both have moved. We have had many people from Cambodia, Laos, and Viet Nam living in Grays Harbor. Some move frequently following the employment opportunities. They will be here one day, and gone the next. The victims family may be in SE Asia and simply lost track of their loved one.

[scandi]

Interesting CCM, Vietnamese was my first thought about her, with her cheek and jaw areas a bit fuller so they would appear soft. She was a very femjinine girl who loved being a girl.

I think the guy who drove her out there was looking for a place way out of the way. She must have crossed him somehow, or wouldn't go along with what he wanted and it was important enough to get rid of her. He didn't even hide the body, right, it was so far off the beaten track. Those logging roads go on endlessly it seems. He didn't even grab her one valuable treasure, her earing. He exploded with a vengance, maybe hit her hard with the gun and then shot her when she was down on the ground, then split to erase it from his mind.

I don't know why I thought of Olympia, but it connects roadwise so easily, and that northern strip of motels north of Lacey might be a place where prostitutes might work. Or Aberdeen, although it might be a longer drive from there. It's been a while since I was down that way, but it was in front of the exit to Elma I encountered that deer on the Hwy. I lived there back in '73 or '74.


Scandi

ETA: It is odd nobody came forward to say she was missing.

[docwho3]

Originally Posted by scandi

. . .But she would not have been wearing virtually new shoes to go out and pick. You said logging spur road - dirt I assume. Is that a drivable road where she could have been driven to almost the end of, yanked out of the car and hit, then shot?

She certainly didn't expect to be there at that time with those shoes on. And as for picking mushrooms, would you go with jewelry on, esp a ring. I would think it would get in the way. . .

What you say sounds reasonable to me. I wonder if whoever took her out there was unaware of the mushrooms growing there or if he thought that spot of mushrooms was unknown to others? I am torn between the 2 possibilities for now. If the spot was well known then I wonder if he (I assume a "he") was not local and did not know. If that spot was not well known as a mushroom spot then perhaps someone local and someone who had kept the secret of where the mushrooms grew (as some mushroom hunters will do), knew it would be a lonely spot where the body would be unlikely to be found.

Just musing out loud here:
This seems like a colder killing in some ways than the Gerard killings unless its one of his early ones, not the hot rage that needs lots of pounding and running over someone but a colder anger that says "I am through with you so I will take you out in the woods and hit you hard once and shoot you and then just drive away." Almost a simple execution from the sparse details known so far.

No signs of clothing around, torn or otherwise? It sounds like perhaps her body was clothed if they found almost new shoes. Was anyone able to track down the shoes to where they were sold?

Was her clothing casual as in jeans or was she dressed as if out on a date?

New dress shoes or new work shoes or new casual shoes?

Anyone seen running around in the area wearing a red fez?


Scandi: You are all most welcome for the thread. I am still thinking of also starting a thread on Gerard as a suspected serial killer. I bet that box is buried along the road somewhere near where his killings were or near where he lived. I can't see him giving that up.

[Becba]

Two of the victims with Gerards DNA were last seen in Aberdeen. Perhaps she is from there also.

[gardenmom]

Aslo wonder if she is from Alaska. Alaskan Indian? Eskimo, Aluet?

[outofthedark]

What? Vietnamese? Korean? Not Chinese or Japanese, right?

She could be of any of those backrounds

[coldcaseman]

Originally Posted by docwho3

What you say sounds reasonable to me. I wonder if whoever took her out there was unaware of the mushrooms growing there or if he thought that spot of mushrooms was unknown to others? I am torn between the 2 possibilities for now. If the spot was well known then I wonder if he (I assume a "he") was not local and did not know. If that spot was not well known as a mushroom spot then perhaps someone local and someone who had kept the secret of where the mushrooms grew (as some mushroom hunters will do), knew it would be a lonely spot where the body would be unlikely to be found.

Just musing out loud here:
This seems like a colder killing in some ways than the Gerard killings unless its one of his early ones, not the hot rage that needs lots of pounding and running over someone but a colder anger that says "I am through with you so I will take you out in the woods and hit you hard once and shoot you and then just drive away." Almost a simple execution from the sparse details known so far.

No signs of clothing around, torn or otherwise? It sounds like perhaps her body was clothed if they found almost new shoes. Was anyone able to track down the shoes to where they were sold?

Was her clothing casual as in jeans or was she dressed as if out on a date?

New dress shoes or new work shoes or new casual shoes?

Anyone seen running around in the area wearing a red fez?


Scandi: You are all most welcome for the thread. I am still thinking of also starting a thread on Gerard as a suspected serial killer. I bet that box is buried along the road somewhere near where his killings were or near where he lived. I can't see him giving that up.

A womans long sleeve shirt was found (inside out) hanging on a branch about 20 ft. from the body. She died with the rest of her clothing on, top with floral print, black jeans that were still zipped/buttoned. Clothing was casual, nothing fancy. Shoes were sold at K-Mart stores, and probably others. Slip on, thin heel, I would say work shoes. A forensic podiatrist estimated that she had only worn them three days. The whole area is frequented by mushroom, deer and, elk hunters. It's a remote area, and a long way to go to take a prostitute. There is an extensive logging road system, and one would need to know where they are going. The body was 200 feet from the end of the spur road, down a hill and through some brush. She was under several small logs that had either fallen or had been placed into a small pile. It is unknown if she crawled under the pile in an attempt to hide, or was murdered and logs were stacked over the body. She wasn't dumped there, it's too far to carry a body through difficult terrain, and evidence at the scene tells me she was murdered where she was found.

[scandi]

Good Morning,

I agree CCM that is too far to take a prostitute out for a pleasure ride, but if you had intentions on killing her from the start and wanted to find an out of the way place this would be a perfect one. It was! She laid there for at least one year, maybe 6, right, before her body was discovered.

If the perp was from say that Aberdeen to Olympia area in general he would know about logging roads. I lived in Lincoln County for years and they wind like snakes through the hills that overlook the ocean, and beyond to the inland.

One other thing about picking Chantrelles. There is a very specific season for them, and it is short. And like I said the land has to have a certain slope and the site has to face a certain direction or they don't grow there. Do you know if this was one of these perfect sites to find Chantrelles?

So far I'm thinking execution style to silence her about something she knew. He could have hung the shirt on the tree, right? He could have pulled it off her as she started to run once she realized it was now or never to get away from him. I bet she knew the whole ride there what was going to happen.

The only way I could see it as a serial killing is if there were other similar crimes and this was his MO. CCM, Do you think he hit her over the head with the gun first, cracking the skull, and then the bullet finished the seperation of the skull. As she decomposed, then an animal could have picked it up and taken it away? How do you think this went down from seeing the site?

Scandi

[coldcaseman]

Originally Posted by scandi

Good Morning,

I agree CCM that is too far to take a prostitute out for a pleasure ride, but if you had intentions on killing her from the start and wanted to find an out of the way place this would be a perfect one. It was! She laid there for at least one year, maybe 6, right, before her body was discovered.

If the perp was from say that Aberdeen to Olympia area in general he would know about logging roads. I lived in Lincoln County for years and they wind like snakes through the hills that overlook the ocean, and beyond to the inland.

One other thing about picking Chantrelles. There is a very specific season for them, and it is short. And like I said the land has to have a certain slope and the site has to face a certain direction or they don't grow there. Do you know if this was one of these perfect sites to find Chantrelles?

So far I'm thinking execution style to silence her about something she knew. He could have hung the shirt on the tree, right? He could have pulled it off her as she started to run once she realized it was now or never to get away from him. I bet she knew the whole ride there what was going to happen.

The only way I could see it as a serial killing is if there were other similar crimes and this was his MO. CCM, Do you think he hit her over the head with the gun first, cracking the skull, and then the bullet finished the seperation of the skull. As she decomposed, then an animal could have picked it up and taken it away? How do you think this went down from seeing the site?

Scandi

The whole area is hilly, and there are alot of slopes where Chantrelles grow. The woman was dressed for spring, summer, or early fall. There was no coat found. I think she used the long sleeve shirt as a light jacket. Some serial killers will change methods of killing, their MO will evolve. The one thing that doesn't change is their signature, the ritual they follow. It could be a physical act or something they say. It's difficult to say if this was part of a series. Your theory of the sequence of events is plausible. Unlike Lyles case, there are details that I cannot discuss, but I firmly believe that if we identify her, we will find who murdered her.

[scandi]

I seem to think if they were a couple, living together in a relationship, there would be emotion showing through in the killing. For instance, if he had given her the lovely earing he might want to grab it and take it away with him. I think someone else gave it to her.

Why would he hang her shirt up on a tree branch? That's a hard one to figure. He must have been a neat freak. Once she was dead there would be no concern to cover her from the elements as in protecting the body by stacking small logs on her. And there would be no need to hide the body, as who would most likely ever go there!

K-Mart and Avon go together for a working girls budget, but the earing, unless she stole it, is out of whack with the rest. Was there any way to ID the maker of the earing? Was it hand made or stamped out of a machine? Was it beautifully put together or maybe made overseas for export to the USA - which I would think would be less quality in the stones and metal. If it is believed to have come from overseas, where did they make jewelry like this in the mid-80's?

I think that earing might hold the secret to her ID. Also, these oriental people are pretty tight knit groups and all know each other, right? Did anyone put the pic of her claymation sculpture in the Aberdeen or Olympia papers?

No bindings. What was the condition of her nails - broken? I don't even kinow if nails remain on a skeleton! Had she had a baby in the past? Was there anything else the killer did besides hang the shirt up? Or did he drop anything? Was the bullet recovered inside the skull and since you think she was shot right there, was a casing recovered? Was there anything in her pockets of the pants or shirt?

Questions galore! LOL Scandi

[coldcaseman]

No fingernails were recovered. The earring is Asian or European manufacture. There were no markings on it, and a pair would be worth several hundred dollars. The Avon ring, that sold for about $25, was sold during the winter of 1981. I tried contacting Avon representatives for sales of the rings with no luck.

[coldcaseman]

There did not appear to be any indications that she had ever given birth. I should clarify that the shirt wasn't hung on a limb, but was hanging over it, and was turned completely inside out. Fliers were sent to local papers, as well as several Asian language newspapers.

[wannabesleuthkk]

1. her skull was disturbed by animals presummably,part of skull missing.
how was the rest of the skeleton? fairly intact? spread about?
2. was her body/skeleton lying flat on back or curled up like fetal?
3. any cutting marks on bones or mandible? signs of injury from trunks falling on her post mortem?
4. what's the weather like in summer there. no need for jacket right? so spring or fall was more likely? To me it seems she was there with him a few minutes, somewhat relaxed enough to shed shirt and got too warm. i know it sounds sexist but a man would have thrown it on the ground and not cared to toss it over branch. If she placed it over branch she may have been comfortable for at least a few. He may have led her there under the guise of picking shrooms, she took off jacket to get to work and smack.
5. are we only seeing a pic of the one earring because that's all you found?or did you in fact find both.?
6. was there anything found near her in print? like a note, news clip, scrap of paper in empty wallet.
7. any tattoos?
8. what kind of fracture was it on tibia? simple, compound? any metal pins or repair incidating how or if she was treated by doctor or did it just look like it healed natural. if it wasn't a bad break, she may have not even seen doctor.
9. what textile factories are in nearby towns?
10. Remember the killer Robinson out of Kansas? He found his vics thru classifieds? got any mailorder bride magazines around there where one could find a vietnamese or phillipino woman wanting to come to beautiful america?
11. is hunting allowed in these woods? if so when does deer season start? do you have turkey around there? what else does one shoot to kill in those woods?
12. can you tell us anymore about the 'mushroom picker' that found her?
13. was DNA obtainable and sent in w/dental to NCIC?
14. was approx age determined by skull seams or other method?
I believe she is Asian, IMO Phillipino. She grew up with male dominated society. She would have been more submissive, less likely to fight back i think. If she perhaps never mind.
i can't think of anything else now.
guess it's good nite for me.
kk

[wannabesleuthkk]

i just re-read that and realized it was like a PM to CCM.
Forgive me fellow sleuths for not addressing ya'll but being my first look at this, all these queries are for CCM.
no offense.
i wanted to share my thoughts with all of you but it sounded like a private chat with the bossman.
hope you understand. it's late.
nite nite
kk

[wannabesleuthkk]

where was the entry wound?
was she looking at him when he shot her?
kk

[Becba]

She had on sapphire earrings. He did not take them. Nor her pearl ring. These were likely not very expensive but he could have taken them. The missing earring is likely where the rest of the skull is. Either he knew he or he killed her and lefther body there as a dumping ground.

[wannabesleuthkk]

Here's a map incase anyone likes to see the terrain like I do...

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Elma,+...95966,0.340233

try that
kk