Surprising amount of Maddie's hair in car trunk

[BrendaStar]

'Surprising amount' of Madeleine McCann's hair found in hire car, say police
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle2429822.ece

All I can say is wow!

[colomom]

Read this also, they are discussing it on the Mirror board.

All I can say is....ugh. :sick:

Every day I feel more and more sorry for our girl.

[Betsy]

Two thoughts....

1. It keeps being said that the car was rented by the McCanns 25 days after Maddie "disappeared". That would be May 28th, right? But has it ever been said how long they rented it for? Because on May 29th is when they flew to Italy to visit with the Pope. Did they only need a car to get to the airport? Or did they rent it long-term? How long were they in Italy? Did they come straight back to Portugal, or do more travelling? Why pay for a car if you're going to be out of the country? Did they drive the car to the airport that day? Was it parked at the airport while they were gone? Did someone know this, and used the car while they were gone?

2. This may mean nothing, but I've read that the McCanns spent the day of Maddie's 4th birthday walking along the beach. I think I personally would spend the day paralyzed in bed, but maybe not if....if I knew that being on the beach was actually as close to my child as I could possibly get, i.e. if she were in the ocean somewhere....

Just some random thoughts...

[KR2tonenow]

Originally Posted by Betsy

Two thoughts....

1. It keeps being said that the car was rented by the McCanns 25 days after Maddie "disappeared". That would be May 28th, right? But has it ever been said how long they rented it for? Because on May 29th is when they flew to Italy to visit with the Pope. Did they only need a car to get to the airport? Or did they rent it long-term? How long were they in Italy? Did they come straight back to Portugal, or do more travelling? Why pay for a car if you're going to be out of the country? Did they drive the car to the airport that day? Was it parked at the airport while they were gone? Did someone know this, and used the car while they were gone?

2. This may mean nothing, but I've read that the McCanns spent the day of Maddie's 4th birthday walking along the beach. I think I personally would spend the day paralyzed in bed, but maybe not if....if I knew that being on the beach was actually as close to my child as I could possibly get, i.e. if she were in the ocean somewhere....

Just some random thoughts...

I find it interesting that they visited the Pope on May 29th, after they left the rental car in Portugal.

Maybe they needed to be purged of their sins.

[CaliKid]

If Madeleine were dead, would her hair be falling out?

[BrendaStar]

I was fence sitting until I read about this. There is no way a large amount of her hair could have gotten into the trunk of the rental car without her being in it, is there? Combined with the bodily fluids, my hinkey meter is going up. I just don't know how this can be explained away if it actually is true and not tabloid gossip.

[BrendaStar]

If Madeleine were dead, would her hair be falling out?

No, but it could have gotten caught on something in the rental's trunk.

[Betsy]

Originally Posted by BrendaStar

If Madeleine were dead, would her hair be falling out?

No, but it could have gotten caught on something in the rental's trunk.

So it would be interesting to know if the hair follicles were still attached....I would venture to say yes, if they know 100% that the hair is Maddie's. If the bulbs are still attached, the hair was pulled out. Yes, children pull each other's hair out, this I know. But not in the trunk of a car, in the wheel well...

[Texana]

Originally Posted by Betsy

So it would be interesting to know if the hair follicles were still attached....I would venture to say yes, if they know 100% that the hair is Maddie's. If the bulbs are still attached, the hair was pulled out. Yes, children pull each other's hair out, this I know. But not in the trunk of a car, in the wheel well...

I think they have to be, in order to do the DNA analysis and know whose hair it is. That was a big issue in the Laci Peterson trial, the hair found on the pliars in Scott's boat didn't have the follicle so they couldn't for certain say it was Laci's--just of a type that could be hers and definitely not Scott's. They can do some typing obviously even without the follicle but not the positive match.

[ThoughtFox]

Originally Posted by BrendaStar

'Surprising amount' of Madeleine McCann's hair found in hire car, say police
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle2429822.ece

All I can say is wow!

omg - This news just makes me sick! It's just too sad!

I was thinking that if decomposition had started, the hair might have come out accidentally - ugh. :mad:

It's interesting that on page two of that article the writer calls the father's blog entry yesterday "emotional," since many people felt it sounded stilted and much too calm.

[sherri79]

Originally Posted by Betsy

So it would be interesting to know if the hair follicles were still attached....I would venture to say yes, if they know 100% that the hair is Maddie's. If the bulbs are still attached, the hair was pulled out. Yes, children pull each other's hair out, this I know. But not in the trunk of a car, in the wheel well...

i would agree with you. my understanding is we have 2 types of dna. Nuclear and mitochondrial DNA . nuclear would be from both parents and tell them 100% if it was maddie. mitochondrial is paced down from the mother and would match her or maddie. again my understanding is hair can only be tested for mitochondrial DNA and you need the follicle for nuclear.

[goddess]

Then why does the article say that the prosecutor has not enough evidence to actually charge the parents? I am getting confuddled with all the conflicting stories I am reading.

[Betsy]

Originally Posted by sherri79

i would agree with you. my understanding is we have 2 types of dna. Nuclear and mitochondrial DNA . nuclear would be from both parents and tell them 100% if it was maddie. mitochondrial is paced down from the mother and would match her or maddie. again my understanding is hair can only be tested for mitochondrial DNA and you need the follicle for nuclear.

This is what I understand also (from the Peterson trial). And with the other little ones being in the car as well, finding hair with no follicle can't be considered very reliable evidence.

But if the DNA from the follicle is a match to the DNA from the blood, found in the car that the McCanns deny driving until Maddie had been missing for 25 days, well......IF that's the case, of course....

[sherri79]

Originally Posted by Betsy

This is what I understand also (from the Peterson trial). And with the other little ones being in the car as well, finding hair with no follicle can't be considered very reliable evidence.

But if the DNA from the follicle is a match to the DNA from the blood, found in the car that the McCanns deny driving until Maddie had been missing for 25 days, well......IF that's the case, of course....

from the Danielle van Dam case i also learned that even with mitochondrial dna you can tell it from mom's if it has been color treated. the problem i would see in this case would be how do you tell it from a sibling without a follicle.

[AfterMidnight]

Originally Posted by BrendaStar

'Surprising amount' of Madeleine McCann's hair found in hire car, say police
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle2429822.ece

All I can say is wow!

Did you guys read the entire article? The press says a lot more and the police backpedal:

But police today denied that there had been any perfect match, or one strong enough to stand up in court.

The police are ENCOURAGING this case to be tried in the press. In my opinion that speaks very badly for the Portugeese Le. For shame!

[hcc2007]

Thanks for explaining the difference between mitochondrial and nuclear dna in hair testing.

My question is, if a "surprising amount" means clumps of hair, then wouldn't the parents have cleaned it up after doing the deed? Or maybe "surprising amount" to a detective is actually so small that the average person wouldn't notice it? It's all rather confusing.

More generally, I believe that death by parents happens way more often to children than death by strangers. Especially given the really slim time slice the abductor had to work with, given the constant checking (as reported by the "Tapas 9"). That would make the prior likelihoods favor the parents as culprits.

On the other hand, if Portugal is the hotbed of pedophilia that some describe it, that would increase the chances of stalking and careful planning by someone who knew the family's habits.

[AfterMidnight]

Originally Posted by BrendaStar

I was fence sitting until I read about this. There is no way a large amount of her hair could have gotten into the trunk of the rental car without her being in it, is there? Combined with the bodily fluids, my hinkey meter is going up. I just don't know how this can be explained away if it actually is true and not tabloid gossip.

Your "hinky meter" should be going up. That's exactly what the police want to happen through their feeding these innuendoes to the "press". Read the entire articles. The police are backpedalling faster than the presses are printing. Something really wrong with that.

[BloodshotEye]

The PJ was quoted in one of the news sources (think it was from yesterday's news), as stating that a particularly detailed account of the DNA, complete with % reliability, was absolutely false.

Given that, the McCanns have repeatedly indicated that they are not able to discuss the case/questions they have been asked, do to the legal restrictions imposed by law - I found it curious, but fascinating, that so much information has been reported in the news.

So I am left with the impression, that one of two things is happening:
1. The JP has watched helplessly, as case info was leaked to the press. They don't know how to stop the leak; so the best they can do, is quash the info by creating doubt about the reliability of it.
Seriously, it is not too difficult for an investigative reporter to follow behind the JP, and question the very people that were questioned by the JP. E.g., the wait staff at the Tappas Bar, hotel staff, securing room info and room layouts from staff. There are plenty of opportunities for case information to be intercepted. And yes, there will be some inaccuracies in the information reported. But a lot of it is pretty accurate. I'm guessing about 80% accuracy.

or...
2. Much of the case details that we have read, and upon which we are basing our various theories and speculation, is more of the same. Theories posed by news sources, who maybe have some public information - yet speculate on the rest.

For now, I put my money on scenario #1.

[Texana]

Bloodshoteye,

I agree with your accuracy assessment for #1. And some information, of course, has been leaked by the McCann supporters--the misunderstood "plea bargain" deal, etc.

[guineveer]

Originally Posted by BrendaStar

'Surprising amount' of Madeleine McCann's hair found in hire car, say police
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle2429822.ece

All I can say is wow!

Actually what it says is: "a source close to the investigation told The Times that forensics experts had found a surprising amount of Madeleine's hair in the hired Renault Scenic"

It also says... "Detectives had expected to find some of Madeleine's genetic material, skin flakes or hair in the car because it had been used to carry the family's belongings, including her clothes and toys"

and this: "the amount of hair came as a surprise, the source said, although detectives were not confident that they could prove beyond doubt their suspicions that Madeleine's body was ever in the car."

And about the DNA matches? "police today denied that there had been any perfect match, or one strong enough to stand up in court."

(Bolding all mine.)

Interesting article! I suggest everyone read the entire thing, before jumping onto sensational headlines or paragraph headers. ;)

[BethyC]

We must learn to not believe everything we read about this case....much has been proven to be otherwise.

[AfterMidnight]

Originally Posted by guineveer

Actually what it says is: "a source close to the investigation told The Times that forensics experts had found a surprising amount of Madeleine's hair in the hired Renault Scenic"

It also says... "Detectives had expected to find some of Madeleine's genetic material, skin flakes or hair in the car because it had been used to carry the family's belongings, including her clothes and toys"

and this: "the amount of hair came as a surprise, the source said, although detectives were not confident that they could prove beyond doubt their suspicions that Madeleine's body was ever in the car."

And about the DNA matches? "police today denied that there had been any perfect match, or one strong enough to stand up in court."

(Bolding all mine.)

Interesting article! I suggest everyone read the entire thing, before jumping onto sensational headlines or paragraph headers. ;)

Well, guineveer, you appear to have confused this thread with the FACTS. You go, girl :blowkiss:

[missmuffit]

Originally Posted by Betsy

Two thoughts....

1. It keeps being said that the car was rented by the McCanns 25 days after Maddie "disappeared". That would be May 28th, right? But has it ever been said how long they rented it for? Because on May 29th is when they flew to Italy to visit with the Pope. Did they only need a car to get to the airport? Or did they rent it long-term? How long were they in Italy? Did they come straight back to Portugal, or do more travelling? Why pay for a car if you're going to be out of the country? Did they drive the car to the airport that day? Was it parked at the airport while they were gone? Did someone know this, and used the car while they were gone?

2. This may mean nothing, but I've read that the McCanns spent the day of Maddie's 4th birthday walking along the beach. I think I personally would spend the day paralyzed in bed, but maybe not if....if I knew that being on the beach was actually as close to my child as I could possibly get, i.e. if she were in the ocean somewhere....

Just some random thoughts...

I belive it was last night, (9/10) on Greta that it was stated that the McCann's did indeed rent or hire the car a day prior to them flying to Rome, however it was done in this manner for friends and family to have access to a car while the parents were out of the area. So from my take on that info, a whole heck of a lot of people had access to the car then just Gerry and Kate.

[txsvicki]

Dr. Perper and another expert were on Nancy Grace tonite saying that hair could come out easily from a deceased person. Maybe in clumps after being dead awhile they maybe from moving the body. There's must be something to it if there is lots of hair in clumbs and the cadaver dog hitting on a scent. I would think that the dog was dual trained and looking for Maddie's scent just as Dobber was looking for Lacey's scent as a cadaver.

[missmuffit]

Originally Posted by txsvicki

Dr. Perper and another expert were on Nancy Grace tonite saying that hair could come out easily from a deceased person. Maybe in clumps after being dead awhile they maybe from moving the body. There's must be something to it if there is lots of hair in clumbs and the cadaver dog hitting on a scent. I would think that the dog was dual trained and looking for Maddie's scent just as Dobber was looking for Lacey's scent as a cadaver.

To add on to what Txsvicki stated, ( Greta, 9/11 ) Dr. Baden also said that the forensics specialists should also be able to tell if the clumps of hair were from someone who was alive at the time that they came out or if the hair had fallen out after death had occured. From what I was able to gather by what he said was that the folicle changes after death, he went on to explain just what the change is however I missed part of the explanation.