Ted Ammon case/Ramsey case

[candy]

Our wonderful sask and Sassy at Cybersleuths have been among the few covering this important case in the criminal cases section. Now, there has been indictment of Danny Pelosi. I can't say how I know this, but the state has concluded that Mr. Ammon was "stun gunned" by a Taser. When these pictures are admitted into evidence, the public will see that the marks of a real Taser do not look anything like the pig testing marks by the Ramseys.

[Barbara]

Originally Posted by candy

I can't say how I know this, but the state has concluded that Mr. Ammon was "stun gunned" by a Taser. [/b]

It's not a secret. Here in NYC, it is on the front page of the New York Daily News.

As far as the "taser", the RST has already backpedaled on this issue stating originally that Steve Tuttle was lying, now they are just saying that it must be some "other" stun gun.

[Ivy]

These are photos taken of the body of Gerald Boggs. The Air Taser stun gun marks on his body photographed at autopsy didn't look anything like the marks on JonBenet. Smit claimed they did, but he conveniently referred to the exhumation photo, and not the photo taken at autopsy. The Rs had no choice but to backpedal.

Autopsy photos:

http://gemart.8m.com/ramsey/boggspics.jpg

Courtesy of http://gemart.8m.com/ramsey/

IMO

[BlueCrab]

The jury is still out when it comes to the stun gun question. The ugly injury on JonBenet's face, near the right ear, is similar to Bogg's ugly injury at about the same place on his face. And it was verified that Bogg's injury was from a stun gun.

The little twin rectangular burn marks, measuring about 1 3/8" apart, on JonBenet's back are similar in shape and measurements to the marks left on the test pig. Of course, the marks will be different in appearance because the skin on JonBenet is a lot thinner and pliable than the tough skin on a pig.

Just because a stun gun may have been used on JonBenet does not eliminate a Ramsey as the perpetrator. Ten-year-old boys are capable of inflicting a lot of injury to another person. And the weapon would have gone out of the door in the middle of the night with the second boy.

JMO

[Shylock]

Originally Posted by BlueCrab

The jury is still out when it comes to the stun gun question. The ugly injury on JonBenet's face, near the right ear, is similar to Bogg's ugly injury at about the same place on his face. And it was verified that Bogg's injury was from a stun gun.

As Ivy pointed out, your time frame in not correct, BlueCrab. The mark on JonBenet's face ONLY resembles the mark on Bogg's face AFTER his body was rotting in the ground for a year. Up until that point it was nothing but a little redness and looked nothing like the mark that was on JB's face.

[candy]

LOL. It isn't out in New York what caused the marks specifically yet.

[Barbara]

Originally Posted by candy

LOL. It isn't out in New York what caused the marks specifically yet.

Just what is the LOL for? Forgive me, I just don't get the humor.

As far as what is out in NY or not, so what? If it isn't out yet, it will be leaked soon enough. Was this info given to remind us that you have "secret", or "inside" information? Wow. That makes you a "player" and an "insider" in these cases and as such, entitles us, according to your standards to know all your personal information.

So, with that said, we all still await all your family history, names, DOB, mortgage records, education level, income, and of course, the family skeletons in your closet....you know, all the things YOU say we are entitled to know about Spade, Fleet, etc.

Not that all your info is that secret, but some are respectful enough not to post it on the forums. So we again ask that you share all the info YOU claim the public has a right to know.

I'll understand if you don't respond to the request...............again and again

[BlueCrab]

Shylock,

There are a lot of variables that go into comparing stun gun injuries between two people. The most significant of these variables is the length of time the gun is held against the skin with the trigger pulled. The longer the hit, the more severe the burn.

For example (and these are just my personal seat-of-the-pants estimates to help explain a point), the typical 50,000 volt hand-held stun gun should not leave a visible injury on the skin if the hit is for only about one second or less.

If held against the skin for two to five seconds there should be a visible minor burn injury.

If held against the skin for five to ten seconds it would likely resemble the injury to Gerald Boggs, as it appeared during the autopsy.

If held against the skin for 10 to 30 seconds, as might occur when torture is being inflicted, the resulting burn injury would be severe and resemble the injury on JonBenet's face, as it appeared during the autopsy.

JMO

[Shylock]

Originally Posted by BlueCrab

If held against the skin for five to ten seconds it would likely resemble the injury to Gerald Boggs, as it appeared during the autopsy.

The type of stun gun used on Boggs was totally different then the Taser. The one used on Boggs had FOUR hard metal protruding electrodes. There is a photo on the net of the actual stun gun pressed up against his face so you can see how the marks match up. The one prong was jabbed HARD into his temple. The prong broke blood vessels beneath his skin. Over a year's time the blood under his skin turned extremely dark, which is the black area you now see in the post-exhumation photos.

So the visual injury to Boggs has nothing to do with the amount of time he was zapped by electricity. You could have made the same mark on his face if you had jabbed him extremely hard with a writing pen.

[BlueCrab]

Originally Posted by Shylock

The type of stun gun used on Boggs was totally different then the Taser. The one used on Boggs had FOUR hard metal protruding electrodes. There is a photo on the net of the actual stun gun pressed up against his face so you can see how the marks match up. The one prong was jabbed HARD into his temple. The prong broke blood vessels beneath his skin. Over a year's time the blood under his skin turned extremely dark, which is the black area you now see in the post-exhumation photos.

So the visual injury to Boggs has nothing to do with the amount of time he was zapped by electricity. You could have made the same mark on his face if you had jabbed him extremely hard with a writing pen.

The autopsy picture of the mark on Boggs face appeared to be a rather large round reddened injury which, after 8 months, turned ugly black but kept its shape. The reddened mark was definitely from a stun gun burn.

A similar round mark is on JonBenet's face but in worse shape when compared to Bogg's mark in his autopsy picture. Therefore, if a stun gun was used, it's reasonable to assume the stun gun hit on JonBenet's face was for a longer period of time than the stun gun hit on Bogg's face. The prolonged hit on JonBenet's face apparently burned her skin black instead of just reddening it.

JMO

[Shylock]

Originally Posted by BlueCrab

A similar round mark is on JonBenet's face but in worse shape when compared to Bogg's mark in his autopsy picture. Therefore, if a stun gun was used, it's reasonable to assume the stun gun hit on JonBenet's face was for a longer period of time than the stun gun hit on Bogg's face. The prolonged hit on JonBenet's face apparently burned her skin black instead of just reddening it.

The only problem with your theory BC, is that a stun gun needs at least TWO prongs to function. There is only ONE mark on JonBenet's face. The RST originally claimed there was two marks, but the second mark turned out to be nothing but dried mucus which was easily seen on the photos that Smit released to the public.
Once the second mark turned out to be fantasy, the Skank tried to spread the myth that the second mark could not be seen because it was on top of the duct tape. Of course there is NO burn or melt mark on the piece of tape, and the stun gun wouldn't even have functioned through the tape which makes a great electrical insulator.

Whatever that dark mark is on the side of her face, it wasn't caused by a stun gun.

[BlueCrab]

Originally Posted by Shylock

The only problem with your theory BC, is that a stun gun needs at least TWO prongs to function. There is only ONE mark on JonBenet's face. The RST originally claimed there was two marks, but the second mark turned out to be nothing but dried mucus which was easily seen on the photos that Smit released to the public.
Once the second mark turned out to be fantasy, the Skank tried to spread the myth that the second mark could not be seen because it was on top of the duct tape. Of course there is NO burn or melt mark on the piece of tape, and the stun gun wouldn't even have functioned through the tape which makes a great electrical insulator.

Whatever that dark mark is on the side of her face, it wasn't caused by a stun gun.

Shylock,

But there is a second mark on JonBenet's face where the other prong touched her -- it's white and just not nearly as pronounced as the ugly dark mark. As I mentioned earlier, there are a lot of variables to consider when viewing an injury and trying to determine whether or not it's from a stun gun.

One of these variables is the pressure of each individual prong of the stun gun against the skin, and another is the conductivity of the skin at each point where the prongs touch the skin. When the conditions are not the same at the tip of each prong, then the injuries they respectively cause will not look the same. Electricity takes the easiest path.

Also, I didn't see the second mark on Bogg's face either. A four-pronged stun gun (the second set of two prongs is a back-up on some stun guns) doesn't answer that question. The distances between the prongs of all stun guns range from about one inch to two inches apart.

However, the twin rectangular marks on JonBenet's back is the strongest evidence that a stun gun was likely used on her. Those two little marks match a Taser stun gun almost to a tee.

JMO

[Shylock]

Originally Posted by BlueCrab

But there is a second mark on JonBenet's face where the other prong touched her -- it's white and just not nearly as pronounced as the ugly dark mark.

That white mark you speak of is actually dried mucus which light is reflecting off of. There is an autopsy photo floating around which clearly shows this, hence the RST lies about the second mark being on top of the tape.

Unless you are speaking about another small mark on her jaw, which is way too far apart from the large dark mark to have been the second mark from a stun gun.

If I get a chance later I'll see if I can find the photo on the net which shows the mark is actually mucus.

[LovelyPigeon]

Ivy, the marks on Boggs face made by a stun gun look very similar to the marks on JonBenét's face at her autopsy.

See the mark on Bogg's earlobe? http://gemart.8m.com/ramsey/boggspics.jpg

That's the other mark of the pair. It's very much like the other (and smaller) mark of the pair on JonBenét's face, and very much like both marks of the pair on JonBenét's back.

Not all stun gun marks look exactly alike.

[Ivy]

LP, the point is that the black marks on Boggs's face show the discoloration of the marks that occurred while he was buried. The photo was taken at his exhumation, not at his original autopsy. The second photo was taken at autopsy, and it's plain to see that the marks do not resemble the marks on JonBenet.

imo

[LovelyPigeon]

The mark on his ear lobe is the 2nd mark of the pair of marks made by the stun gun. It is shape and size very similar to the pair of marks on JonBenét's back.

I have a photo taken during the after-exhumation examination where the stun gun is held up to the ear and cheek to show how the probes match up to the marks.

I don't know of a close-up photo of Bogg's ear at autopsy. We only have the close-up at the exam done after exhumation. But the "marks" shown in close-up at his autopsy are from a single probe. The other probe made the mark on his ear.

I think you may be referring to the coloration of the marks. I think factors, like livor mortis, may affect color of marks caused before death and also remaining after death.

[Shylock]

Originally Posted by LovelyPigeon

The mark on his ear lobe is the 2nd mark of the pair of marks made by the stun gun. It is shape and size very similar to the pair of marks on JonBenét's back.

I have a photo taken during the after-exhumation examination where the stun gun is held up to the ear and cheek to show how the probes match up to the marks.

I'm afraid what you posted is pretty confusing, LP. If you have seen the photo of Boggs where the stun gun is held up to his ear and cheek, then you know that stun gun model has FOUR ROUNDED probes. Not two rectangular probes like the Taser. Because of this the marks on Boggs look NOTHING like the ones on JonBenet's back. How could they?

[LovelyPigeon]

Here's the photo
http://www.geocities.com/lovelypigeon/boggs.html

Sorry if my post is unclear.

[why_nutt]

Originally Posted by LovelyPigeon

The mark on his ear lobe is the 2nd mark of the pair of marks made by the stun gun. It is shape and size very similar to the pair of marks on JonBenét's back.

I have a photo taken during the after-exhumation examination where the stun gun is held up to the ear and cheek to show how the probes match up to the marks.

I don't know of a close-up photo of Bogg's ear at autopsy. We only have the close-up at the exam done after exhumation. But the "marks" shown in close-up at his autopsy are from a single probe. The other probe made the mark on his ear.

I think you may be referring to the coloration of the marks. I think factors, like livor mortis, may affect color of marks caused before death and also remaining after death.

I have the photo you mention, of the stun gun overlaid over the marks, and the photo makes no sense as shown.

The stun gun involved has four probes. Let us call them, from left to right, 1 2 3 4.

Probes 1 and 4 are the actual probes which do damage.
Probes 2 and 3 are simply test probes, meant to test whether the stun gun's battery is working and has a sufficient charge to operate probes 1 and 4.

If you look at the probes, you will see that probes 2 and 4 face each other. That is useless for stunning a person. The stun gun involved in the Boggs case was a Muscleman, and as you can see for yourself:

http://www.blowgunsnw.com/stungun.htm

Test the unit by pushing the safety switch into the "ON" position and depressing the trigger for no more than a second. An arc of electricity between the inside metal test probes and a loud "zapping" sound will indicate proper function.

Touch the attacker with the outside metal contact probes while depressing the trigger.

The picture of the Boggs marks shows marks next to probes 1 and 3. Probes 2 and 4 are shown to leave no marks at all. According to how the stun gun operates, this should be impossible. I must say, if I were a juror being shown this evidence today, I would not say the stun gun presented was the one which inflicted damage.

One other oddity: From whatever source this picture originates, whoever drew in the arrows does not illustrate anything in particular. The leftmost arrow points to nothing but Boggs's ear, no marks, no probe. Why?

http://s92053900.onlinehome.us/boggs.jpg

[LovelyPigeon]

The inside metal probes are "test probes" which give off an arc of electricity, which is both described and illustrated in the photo.

The outside metal probes deliver an electrical stun.

It's not necessary to have all 4 probes touching skin in order to deliver a stun, but it is possible for all 4 to be close enough to deliver electricity and leave a mark.

I believe the arrows on the photo show the line up with where the 4 probes touched the face and ear. The marks made by the "outside" probes are not as prominent as the ones made by the inside probes.

I don't know who drew the arrows. I've always thought that photo was prosecution exhibit, marked for demonstation.

I don't if the stun gun was applied onto (then alive) Bogg's skin or just held very close to it when the marks were made.

[BlueCrab]

I don't think the stun gun used on Boggs' was a Muscleman brand either. One of the two main probes (the outer ones) doesn't even come close to one of the two marks on Bogg's face.

The two back-up inner probes on a Muscleman are used for testing and making a crackling noise to scare the aggressor into not attacking. The two outer probes do the shocking. However, I guess it's possible the inner probes could surface burn the skin on the irregular-shaped part of Bogg's face and ear.

In any event, the second mark on JonBenet's face is very faint but is there. And the two marks on her back are pretty conclusive to me that they are probably from a stun gun. The brand of stun gun is irrelevant.

JMO

[why_nutt]

Originally Posted by LovelyPigeon

The inside metal probes are "test probes" which give off an arc of electricity, which is both described and illustrated in the photo.

The outside metal probes deliver an electrical stun.

It's not necessary to have all 4 probes touching skin in order to deliver a stun, but it is possible for all 4 to be close enough to deliver electricity and leave a mark.

I believe the arrows on the photo show the line up with where the 4 probes touched the face and ear. The marks made by the "outside" probes are not as prominent as the ones made by the inside probes.

You are demonstrating a lack of understanding.

The inside probes do not make marks. They do not fire when the stun gun is being used against a person's skin. The inside probes have one purpose and one purpose only; to be fired when the stun gun is touching nothing, so a person can check whether a charge is present or whether the gun is not firing for whatever reason (obviously, just pressing an uncharged stun gun against an aggressor is useless). So, contrary to what you say, "the marks made by the 'outside' probes" must be more prominent than "the ones made by the inside probes," because there cannot be marks made by the inside probes. Do you understand now?

[LovelyPigeon]

If the outside probes are not touching skin, the inside probes could make marks because they are eliciting electricity.

I would assume that a malfunction could even allow all 4 probes to elicit electric shock at the same time.

I don't have a stun gun, nor access to one, so I can't test middle probes to see if they will stun and/or leave a mark on skin...but I'm willing to have you try. :-)

Do you know if the configuration of the stun gun you are referring to now is the same as it was when manufactored before Boggs' death?

And what is the source that a Muscleman brand was used on Boggs?

[LovelyPigeon]

Pelosi says he bought but never used stun gun
In a call from jail, suspect in Ammon slaying says he bought weapon to get rid of raccoons

RIVERHEAD, N.Y., March 23 - Two and a half years after the financier R. Theodore Ammon was found bludgeoned to death in his Hamptons home, the Long Island electrician who married Mr. Ammon's widow was charged Tuesday with second-degree murder in the killing.
The electrician, Daniel Pelosi, surrendered Tuesday morning to the Suffolk County district attorney's office, a day after a county grand jury charged him in a sealed indictment. The charge was disclosed at his arraignment in Suffolk County Court, where Mr. Pelosi, wearing an olive suit and handcuffs, pleaded not guilty.
Despite the protests of his lawyers, Mr. Pelosi, 40, was ordered held without bail in the county jail. He faces up to life in prison if convicted of second-degree murder, prosecutors said.
Prosecutors previewed their case during the arraignment, saying that Mr. Pelosi had implicated himself and others in the killings. The Suffolk district attorney, Thomas Spota, would not provide further details, saying that the grand jury is still investigating Mr. Ammon's death.
Mr. Ammon, 52, a venture capitalist and chairman of Jazz at Lincoln Center, was found beaten to death in a bedroom of his ivy-covered East Hampton home on Oct. 22, 2001. Intrigue surrounding his murder, his $80 million estate and Mr. Pelosi's relationship with Mr. Ammon's widow, Generosa, provided abundant fodder for news reports and gossip.
In court on Tuesday, Assistant District Attorney Janet Albertson said Mr. Ammon had been beaten in the head with a blunt object more than 30 times. She said that Mr. Ammon had also been shocked on his back and neck by an electric stun gun, and that Mr. Pelosi had bought several stun guns before the killing. --->>

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/03/24/nyregion/24ammon.html


Pelosi says he bought but never used stun gun
In a call from jail, suspect in Ammon slaying says he bought weapon to get rid of raccoons

http://www.newsday.com/news/local/lo...news-headlines

[LovelyPigeon]

candy, is the stun gun confirmed to be an air Taser?

If so, were the darts fired?

If so, did the tagged darts identify the original purchaser?