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FLDS Raids and Related Items Discussion about the raids on the polygamist sect's Texas compound and the issues arising from and surrounding their beliefs and practices


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  #251  
Old 04-11-2008, 04:56 PM
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LinasK LinasK is offline
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Originally Posted by gamegirl View Post
I've been trying to bite my tongue as I read so many of the comments that are basically saying it's all the fault of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints that there are children being sexually abused by members of the FLDS sect.

The tragedy of the situation is that children are being abused and regardless of the religion, the abuse needs to be stopped. Texas law enforcement is on the road to doing something about today's situation and hopefully they will be on top of tomorrow's situation and next month's situation. As long as there are human beings on this earth, there are going to be abused children. We can argue all day about who is to blame but it really comes down to the abuser is responsible. It doesn't matter if the abuser is FLDS, a Catholic priest, a Mormon bishop, a father/brother/uncle, agnotic or athiest. It takes a certain evil spirit to commit crimes against children and it certainly isn't limited to one group of people.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has no more legal authority to "correct" or "prevent" the teachings of the FLDS sects than the non-Mormon residents of Utah.

Keeping silent about something you know is wrong is the same as condoning it,
Noone has said it's all the fault of the Mormon church, sex abuse isn't even confined to the Mormon church- see my post about Catholic priests, it's not even confined to religion- I was molested myself by a relative. But when the problem is this pervasive and widespread- 400 children in one compound alone- the churches do have a duty to do something about it.
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  #252  
Old 04-11-2008, 05:00 PM
gamegirl gamegirl is offline
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So EVERY church needs to be doing something about it, not just the Mormons.
  #253  
Old 04-11-2008, 05:01 PM
WhitneyLea WhitneyLea is offline
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Originally Posted by LinasK View Post
Noone has said it's all the fault of the Mormon church, sex abuse isn't even confined to the Mormon church- see my post about Catholic priests, it's not even confined to religion- I was molested myself by a relative. But when the problem is this pervasive and widespread- 400 children in one compound alone- the churches do have a duty to do something about it.
True - but the Mormon church had no more ability to "do" anything about this situation than the Methodist, Baptist, or Catholic churches would have ... they have not had any ties to the FLDS for at least a couple hundred years, and I can guarantee that nothing the Mormon church says will affect what the FLDS practices. The only church that could have done something to prevent and STOP this abuse is the FLDS. And they obviously have not, which is why Texas had to step in.
  #254  
Old 04-11-2008, 05:30 PM
SuziQ SuziQ is offline
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If any church, especially a big mainstream one, got involved with chastising another churches practice, it could backfire bigtime. And I would bet there would be a public outcry that the "big bully church" is picking on the small church and trying to tell them what to do. I think in this instance the LDS church can accomplish more by doing what they've always done. By helping anyone, including polygamists, that asks for their help. Rather than grandstanding and making non binding public statements regarding the situation, and starting a war of words that won't help anyone.
  #255  
Old 04-11-2008, 05:46 PM
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Leila Leila is offline
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Originally Posted by WhitneyLea View Post
True - but the Mormon church had no more ability to "do" anything about this situation than the Methodist, Baptist, or Catholic churches would have ... they have not had any ties to the FLDS for at least a couple hundred years, and I can guarantee that nothing the Mormon church says will affect what the FLDS practices. The only church that could have done something to prevent and STOP this abuse is the FLDS. And they obviously have not, which is why Texas had to step in.
Arizona, Utah, South Dakota, and any other states that have FLDS communities have to take a cue from Texas and step in. If they all work together, maybe they can bring a halt to the crimes being perpetrated.

When the mothers of children who had been killed by drunk drivers came together from all states to form Mothers Against Drunk Drivers, that's when we saw laws being changed and laws being made stronger, to combat the issue of drunk driving.

This is the same concept. All states who have FLDS communities must work together.
  #256  
Old 04-11-2008, 05:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Leila View Post
Arizona, Utah, South Dakota, and any other states that have FLDS communities have to take a cue from Texas and step in. If they all work together, maybe they can bring a halt to the crimes being perpetrated.

When the mothers of children who had been killed by drunk drivers came together from all states to form Mothers Against Drunk Drivers, that's when we saw laws being changed and laws being made stronger, to combat the issue of drunk driving.

This is the same concept. All states who have FLDS communities must work together.
  #257  
Old 04-11-2008, 06:00 PM
trixie trixie is offline
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I guess a 16 year old girl with a cell phone is more powerful than one of the largest wealthiest churches on the planet because she brought it alllll down in Texas. (And Thank GOD for Texas authorities who did the right thing. Texans should be proud!) That being said, to the poster who misunderstood what I said a couple of pages back, I don't hold the Mormon church responsible for what was happening in thet compound. I hold them responsible for being as big and mighty and powerful as they are WITH people in high places who could help and affect change, and yet did nothing. And you cannot tell me they didn't know what was going on. The Warren Jeffs trial was when, last year? EVERYBODY knew what was going on there after that. No, it's not the Mormon churches fault, IMO, it's their fault they didn't see a need and see people in trouble, some of which are related to LDS members, and CHOSE to NOT STEP UP. There are many churches out there who do charitable works for anybody in need, not just their own members. Maybe the Mormons should take a cue from them. FLDS is not LDS. Does that mean the LDS doesn't have the moral obligation to help those children?
  #258  
Old 04-11-2008, 06:07 PM
Pepper Pepper is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leila View Post
If you look up the word bigamy in the encyclopedia, it's part of polygamy, with both meaning plural marriages. The difference seems to be in the legal aspects. If one were to obtain a marriage license and wed one person, and then while still married to that person, obtain another marriage license and wed another person, the person who is legally married to two people at the same time is a bigamist and can be prosecuted and sent to jail/prison.

Polygamy seems to be multiple marriages through a church, without a legal marriage license to marry. Certainly those girls in Texas who are younger than the legal age to marry - 16, cannot be considered married.
Technically:

Bigamy = Bi = two
Polygamy = Poly = many (or more than two)

You can't be prosecuted for either bigamy (two spouses) or polygamy (more than two spouses) unless you obtained marriage licenses and were legally married to more than one at the same time without previously dissolving your prior marriage(s). Since most of these polygamy cases are "spiritual" and not "legal" there is no grounds for legal prosecution, and to do such would be a monumental waste of time and money.
  #259  
Old 04-11-2008, 06:09 PM
sherri79 sherri79 is offline
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i understand the need to blame. we have children that are hurt. hell i want someone to hate and be angry at. of course i hate the men that rape the children but they are a lost cause. i want to blame someone that can change things.

i want to blame the police in Texas. they knew children lived there and they knew this cult hurt children. they say they had to wait for a legal reason to act. screw the law kids are hurt. i understand we need laws so we do not live in fear of police knocking on my door tomorrow and taking my kids just because they feel like it. there is a disconnect between my heart and head. my head knows that police should follow the law or they are no more than a street gang. my heart screams that children suffered every day that the police waited for proof to act.

i want to blame the LDS. the 2 groups are related. they both started as the same group. my head knows that before Mormons became Mormons they can be traced back to other offshoots of the christian faith. my head knows Jews practiced polygamy at one time. my heart does not care. i want to blame them because they share a past and i have hope they can change the future.

i want to blame anyone that practices polygamy or defends it. i know there is a difference between what adults do and child brides. i still want to blame them.

this case is hard for me. i have spent years suffering abuse. what is logical and what i feel do not always match up.

should the LDS step up and combat the abuse of children? hell yes! so should every religious group. while we are at it so should those that believe in nothing at all or something not covered by the other groups. before we blame the LDS for not stopping child abuse in a community they had ties to a hundred years ago remember we can not stop abuse going on in our own neighborhoods. pull up your local map and see how many men that have raped children are living in your town under the title RSO. people in general fail our children more often than any predator in the darkest jungle.
  #260  
Old 04-11-2008, 06:13 PM
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thefragile7393 thefragile7393 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhitneyLea View Post
True - but the Mormon church had no more ability to "do" anything about this situation than the Methodist, Baptist, or Catholic churches would have ... they have not had any ties to the FLDS for at least a couple hundred years, and I can guarantee that nothing the Mormon church says will affect what the FLDS practices. The only church that could have done something to prevent and STOP this abuse is the FLDS. And they obviously have not, which is why Texas had to step in.
For Trixie and others:
Do you know anything about how the FLDS operates? More than likely any LDS members with FLDS family couldn't have had any CONTACT with them, these people were so shut off from the outside world and not allowed to contact anyone not in their own FLDS family. The FLDS shut themselves off from everyone! They (as a group) didn't WANT outsiders help, and Warren Jeffs and his cronies ruled with an iron fist. Outsiders in CO City, for example, are followed and questioned by the local PD (FLDS members of course) and then escorted out of town. Little hard to help people when you have these creeps preventing that! "Underneath the Banner of Heaven" might be a good place to start to learn more.
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  #261  
Old 04-11-2008, 06:24 PM
Trino Trino is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pepper View Post
Technically:

Bigamy = Bi = two
Polygamy = Poly = many (or more than two)

You can't be prosecuted for either bigamy (two spouses) or polygamy (more than two spouses) unless you obtained marriage licenses and were legally married to more than one at the same time without previously dissolving your prior marriage(s). Since most of these polygamy cases are "spiritual" and not "legal" there is no grounds for legal prosecution, and to do such would be a monumental waste of time and money.
And, of course, these "marriages" were w/o valid state licenses. The men, then, won't be prosecuted for anything except underage relationships and/or child abuse. Wonder how long this will put them away.

Let me just ask...
If you were an adult female with FLDS, had lived a life under the circumstances these women lived, and had a child or several children, how would you ever achieve a normal life in the mainstream world? Most likely, these women have no education, no job skills. What will they do? God forbid that they return to this cult or to their "husbands."
  #262  
Old 04-11-2008, 06:28 PM
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barb0301 barb0301 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pepper View Post
Technically:

Bigamy = Bi = two
Polygamy = Poly = many (or more than two)

You can't be prosecuted for either bigamy (two spouses) or polygamy (more than two spouses) unless you obtained marriage licenses and were legally married to more than one at the same time without previously dissolving your prior marriage(s). Since most of these polygamy cases are "spiritual" and not "legal" there is no grounds for legal prosecution, and to do such would be a monumental waste of time and money.
TX is a state that recognizes common law marriages, meaning you do not have to obtain marriage licenses. I posted the whole statute in post #73 of this thread, but here is a small excerpt:

(B) lives with that person in this state under
the appearance of being married.

(b) For purposes of this section, "under the appearance of
being married" means holding out that the parties are married with
cohabitation and an intent to be married by either party.
  #263  
Old 04-11-2008, 06:58 PM
golfmom golfmom is offline
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Oh Barb, I missed your previous post. Texas law has some real teeth then to be able to go after this group based on it's recognition of common law marriage.
  #264  
Old 04-11-2008, 07:18 PM
Pepper Pepper is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barb0301 View Post
TX is a state that recognizes common law marriages, meaning you do not have to obtain marriage licenses. I posted the whole statute in post #73 of this thread, but here is a small excerpt:

(B) lives with that person in this state under
the appearance of being married.

(b) For purposes of this section, "under the appearance of
being married" means holding out that the parties are married with
cohabitation and an intent to be married by either party.
Yes, but I would wager money that if they tried to prosecute for polygamy under these guidelines, it would be tossed out of court in a heartbeat. Consenting adults can do what they want in their living arrangements. It would be like banning oral sex between husband and wife. Unconstitutional!! Texas should not waste resources going after anyone on these grounds. There's plenty of "meat" without resorting to iffy cases.
  #265  
Old 04-11-2008, 07:43 PM
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But Pepper, that's exactly the loophole that the polygamist keep sliding through in Utah and Arizona. Texas recognizes these "spiritual marriages" and therefore can prosecute for polygamy in addition to the child abuse.

And, personally, I think that they should. This isn't freedom of religion ...
  #266  
Old 04-11-2008, 08:41 PM
SuziQ SuziQ is offline
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http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=3059496

(snip)

A judge has ordered all the children stay in the San Angelo area until after a hearing next week.
Child services workers say the children may be put in foster homes after that hearing, but the cultural adjustment would require intense counseling. Some former members of the FLDS Church say girls are told leaving the compound could consign them to eternal damnation, and they are sheltered to the point they don't trust their own judgment.
  #267  
Old 04-11-2008, 09:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by golfmom View Post
But Pepper, that's exactly the loophole that the polygamist keep sliding through in Utah and Arizona. Texas recognizes these "spiritual marriages" and therefore can prosecute for polygamy in addition to the child abuse.

And, personally, I think that they should. This isn't freedom of religion ...
I don't like it either, but if it is going to be money wasted, then let them spend it on something they are likely to win - like child rape or physical abuse.
  #268  
Old 04-11-2008, 09:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Trino View Post
And, of course, these "marriages" were w/o valid state licenses. The men, then, won't be prosecuted for anything except underage relationships and/or child abuse. Wonder how long this will put them away.

Let me just ask...
If you were an adult female with FLDS, had lived a life under the circumstances these women lived, and had a child or several children, how would you ever achieve a normal life in the mainstream world? Most likely, these women have no education, no job skills. What will they do? God forbid that they return to this cult or to their "husbands."
Several people have brought up the difficulty that the women face. But think about it. There are thousands of women in the US who have had children when they were young. Many didn't finish high school and also have few job skills. Many of them had their kids with some loser guy who is now out of the picture. What do they do? They deal with it. The FLDS women actually have some advantages over the average young single mom, in that they know how to sew, how to prepare nourishing meals from bulk foods, and the kids are not used to 'needing' the latest x-box gadget. Someone posted earlier that Child Protective services in Ca, for instance, handles the removal of 400 kids from abusive homes per day. There are programs in place to assist these moms. Child Support from the deadbeat dad is one example. I think they are going to make it.
  #269  
Old 04-11-2008, 09:19 PM
golfmom golfmom is offline
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I guess we'll just have to disagree. I don't view it as a waste of money, enforcing the law. And, I have a big problem with Utah and Arizona's lax treatment of the polygamists.
  #270  
Old 04-11-2008, 09:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pepper View Post
Yes, but I would wager money that if they tried to prosecute for polygamy under these guidelines, it would be tossed out of court in a heartbeat. Consenting adults can do what they want in their living arrangements. It would be like banning oral sex between husband and wife. Unconstitutional!! Texas should not waste resources going after anyone on these grounds. There's plenty of "meat" without resorting to iffy cases.
TX is already prosecuting another "religious" figure for bigamy. I posted a link in an earlier post on here. Whether or not they end up finally prosecuting, it is a way to find probably cause for warrants now, make arrests and bring charges. Then those that are arrested will have to post bond and go by the rules of the bond, which usually require not leaving the state.


http://www.reporternews.com/news/200...awkins_arrest/

http://www.reporternews.com/news/200...-trial-bigamy/

And no, it's not unconstitutional. Where in the Constitution does it guarantee you the right to have multiple marriage partners?

Last edited by barb0301; 04-11-2008 at 09:39 PM. Reason: edited to add links
  #271  
Old 04-11-2008, 09:32 PM
Trino Trino is offline
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Originally Posted by Truly View Post
Several people have brought up the difficulty that the women face. But think about it. There are thousands of women in the US who have had children when they were young. Many didn't finish high school and also have few job skills. Many of them had their kids with some loser guy who is now out of the picture. What do they do? They deal with it. The FLDS women actually have some advantages over the average young single mom, in that they know how to sew, how to prepare nourishing meals from bulk foods, and the kids are not used to 'needing' the latest x-box gadget. Someone posted earlier that Child Protective services in Ca, for instance, handles the removal of 400 kids from abusive homes per day. There are programs in place to assist these moms. Child Support from the deadbeat dad is one example. I think they are going to make it.
Most of these women have less than a sixth grade education. That's a lot of time to make up. Child support? The dads are going to be in jail for a long time.
  #272  
Old 04-11-2008, 09:33 PM
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Originally Posted by golfmom View Post
But Pepper, that's exactly the loophole that the polygamist keep sliding through in Utah and Arizona. Texas recognizes these "spiritual marriages" and therefore can prosecute for polygamy in addition to the child abuse.

And, personally, I think that they should. This isn't freedom of religion ...


You are absolutely right, it is not freedom of religion. I am going to guess that all of the adult women were raped when they were children. I don't know what the statute of limitations is in Texas on child rape, but there should be no need to even address polygamy between adults.
  #273  
Old 04-11-2008, 09:35 PM
golfmom golfmom is offline
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Long article, but I thought this tidbit was interesting:

http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695269647,00.html

As for the 16-year-old girl who called a hotline to report she was being sexually and physically abused at the ranch, child welfare officials still have not identified her. "It's been an unbelievable task figuring out the identities of these victims," Meisner said.

"Their names change frequently and many have the same name."
  #274  
Old 04-11-2008, 09:37 PM
golfmom golfmom is offline
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From my understanding the group was educating children through at a minimum of 8th grade, up until Warren Jeffs took over the group. Then he dictated that all children be removed from school.
  #275  
Old 04-11-2008, 09:39 PM
Pepper Pepper is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barb0301 View Post
TX is already prosecuting another "religious" figure for bigamy. I posted a link in an earlier post on here. Whether or not they end up finally prosecuting, it is a way to find probably cause for warrants now, make arrests and bring charges. Then those that are arrested will have to post bond and go by the rules of the bond, which usually require not leaving the state.

And no, it's not unconstitutional. Where in the Constitution does it guarantee you the right to have multiple marriage partners?
The operative word is marriage. They aren't married in the legal sense. If you wanted to live in a commune with 5 or 6 different sexual partners, no law would prevent you from doing so. I'm just saying that the appellate courts will toss any attempt to prosecute on these grounds. There are simply no enforceable laws pertaining to sexual acts between consenting adults, no matter how many individually or at the same time.
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