Deaths of Male College Students-General Discussion #3

[SeriouslySearching]

Originally Posted by SuziQ

And keeping in mind that LE and media reads here. Shadow probably remembers the case of the guy who went on another board, and gloated about inside info he knew. Well it was all fine and dandy until LE and media tracked this guy down to find out what he knew. Which turned out to be nothing.

LOL That wasn't very long ago either.

[SuziQ]

Originally Posted by SeriouslySearching

LOL That wasn't very long ago either.

Ah you remember that too?!!. lol, I wish I had the vid from the newstation when he came to the door.

[fran]

I’ve been cruising and googling for the past few days about ‘missing college students,’ ‘college student drinking and binge drinking,’ etc…..Drinking among college students and deaths and accidents involving ‘drunk students’ is a HUGE problem and has been studied quite extensively. There are reports and studies used to counsel students and programs by many colleges. The most likely time for binge drinking is the first three weeks of school, the HOLIDAYS of Xmas and New Years, and Spring Break. (21st birthday celebration appear critical as well.) But these that we’ve been studying are spread throughout the school year.

The below study is dated 2002, but none the less, it’s very sobering in realizing what goes on at our college campuses.

http://www.collegedrinkingprevention.../Intro_03.aspx
A Snapshot of Annual High-Risk College Drinking Consequences


I only studied a handful of OTHER states not involved in the most recent disappearances, and I don’t understand why there aren’t a number of unsolved missing and drowning in the OTHER states. Usually in the OTHER states, when there’s a death due to excessive alcohol, it’s solved. The student is in an accident or found dead in their bed, or IF missing, found. OR, IF there’s a student in another state ’missing,’ it’s perhaps ONE in that state over a five year period, or as in one state recently, there’s one unsolved from 30 years ago and it was a female.(not involving alcohol, fwiw)

THESE cases presently being studied, many of the students and young people did NOT drink or their blood alcohol was too low to have been ‘alcohol poisoning.’ PLUS, in other states, there are ‘female victims’ as well AND they’re solved. OR IF it’s a female, it could be ‘murder’ etc., AND it’s solved. OR, if they did appear to have a very high blood alcohol level (present cases study), they were TOO DRUNK to have made it to the water (IF FOUND).

The few car accidents and disappeared driver, the few run into a body of water and body found in car, or outside of car, COULD be legitimate accidents or……….maybe not. IF a car is found wrecked out in the country or rural road, the driver is NOT there, a search ensues and the driver is NEVER located, then……where are they? What happened to them? Curious. FWIW, we have at least one of those for ‘females’ in New England. (car found, student NOT)

The majority of these victims DO fit into the ‘risk age,’ 18-24, and then some a little older or younger, look as if they COULD be that age group. So, is someone targeting them? I have NO idea. SOME could be legitimate accidents, but even breaking it down into 2/3’s being accidents, it leaves a HUGE # of ’mysterious’ deaths and missing.

I guess what I'm trying to say is I was almost beginning to think maybe these were just a string of accidents. However, what these detectives have uncovered is interesting and IMHO, SHOULD be investigated. We’re not talking about just one student here, we’re talking about a NUMBER of students. IF a link can be found with even two, or say two in each state, it’s worth the time and money that would be used, imo. After all, it could be OUR children they save from being the next victim of this phenomena…………or predator(s).

JMHO
fran

[SuziQ]

Thanks fran! That's very interesting.

[SeriouslySearching]

OK...so if the ME in the Booth case feels the GHB was out of the system in his autopsy which took place two weeks after he went missing...I would like to know how long that ME believes that GHB could stay IN the system after death. Anyone want to call and ask?

Glad you are coming around to my way of thinking, Fran. Good post!!

[SuziQ]

I know there are ME and or Patholigists that have posted here, particularly the Rose Cole thread. You should PM them. lol.

[SeriouslySearching]

I was thinking since Dark and Vermont broke the possible connection in that case...they might have an "in" there and could ask. Since it is nothing I have heard an ME say before...I would like his opinion on it.

[SuziQ]

Originally Posted by SeriouslySearching

I was thinking since Dark and Vermont broke the possible connection in that case...they might have an "in" there and could ask. Since it is nothing I have heard an ME say before...I would like his opinion on it.

Good idea. I've heard over the years that GHB related crimes are hard to prosecute because of the lack of tox evidence. I couldn't tell you though why I know that. I think it was from following that creepy date rape drug rapist case from Santa Barbara. Was his name Chambers? I know there was alot of info regarding GHB submitted at his trial.

ETA: it's not Chambers. The guy I'm thinking of was related to the Max Factor family. BRB.

Found him: Andrew Luster, here's the link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Luster

[SeriouslySearching]

Thanks, Suzi. Trust me, I don't need a refresher on that creep. I know his case very well.

The question here tho is what happens in a dead body that would allow the drug to dissipate or otherwise leave no indication if it was administered before death? Makes no sense it would be gone before autopsy to me.

[dark_shadows]

Geraldo Rivera is going to be in Middlebury, Vermont tommorow to do a story on Nick Garza.
Respectfully,
dark_shadows

[SeriouslySearching]

Thanks for the update, Dark!! I look forward to seeing it.

[SuziQ]

Originally Posted by SeriouslySearching

Thanks, Suzi. Trust me, I don't need a refresher on that creep. I know his case very well.

The question here tho is what happens in a dead body that would allow the drug to dissipate or otherwise leave no indication if it was administered before death? Makes no sense it would be gone before autopsy to me.

I guess it would depend on how much time went by before death. I've been searching and searching and it appears that there is no conclusive way to determine much about GHB after the fact. Like you suggested, we need a pro to weigh in, and that's not me. But! I do remember reading that GHB is not a standard tox screen tested at autopsy.

[SuziQ]

Also, I have read in date rape cases, vics have gone straight to the ER and rarely do they test positive for GHB. That's how fast it leaves a body. I guess the question is, how long is the half life?

[Peculiar Petunia]

http://books.google.com/books?id=Bfd...cNsDn0us&hl=en

I don't know how to do a neat little "mini-link" here, but can make the toxicology a little more understandable. Basically, the pathways a person uses to break down GHB are also found in many bacteria. So, gut bacteria (or water bacteria, for that matter) can keep breaking down GHB even if there's something present after death. And a person metabolizes the compund really fast!

[Peculiar Petunia]

Originally Posted by SuziQ

Also, I have read in date rape cases, vics have gone straight to the ER and rarely do they test positive for GHB. That's how fast it leaves a body. I guess the question is, how long is the half life?

Less than 30 minutes, according to the above book.

[SuziQ]

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/418321_3

Elimination
Less than 2% of GHB is eliminated unchanged in the urine.[162, 164] Owing to the short half-life, there is no accumulation of GHB with repeated dosing and GHB doses of up to 100 mg/kg are no longer detectable in the blood from 2-8 hours or in the urine after 8-12 hours.[162, 165] The variability of these findings may depend on the sensitivity of the assay used, or it may be due to interindividual variability. In summary, it has been suggested that regardless of the dose given, the elimination of GHB is so rapid, even in those with compromised liver function, that the drug is completely eliminated within 4-6 hours after ingestion.[162]

[SuziQ]

Originally Posted by Peculiar Petunia

Less than 30 minutes, according to the above book.

JC! That's faster than what I found!

[Peculiar Petunia]

Well, it's a half-life, and it seems like the breakdown is not a linear function. So I could see there being a remainder up to 4 hours afterward.

[SuziQ]

Originally Posted by Peculiar Petunia

Well, it's a half-life, and it seems like the breakdown is not a linear function. So I could see there being a remainder up to 4 hours afterward.

So exactly what would be left after how long? It seems that because GHB is normally in the body, that it's hard for a pathologist to determine what is a normal level. Let's say TOD is at one hour after ingestion, and we are lucky that an ME tests for GHB, can he even tell if it's enough to relate to foul play or not?

[ArizonaGiGi]

Anybody know if ghb would show up in the hair like some other drugs do?

[SeriouslySearching]

Thanks for the info, Suzi and Petunia.

Good question, Arizona! I wonder if it can even be detected at all in the hair? I would have to assume as quickly as it leaves the body, the chemical wouldn't affect changes in the hair follicles...but I could be very wrong. Would be another interesting question to ask an ME.

[Indigator]

Bodies in water are the most difficult to determine time of death, cause of death etc. Ina sense, a wet body is a perfect way to disguise what happened before death. I wonder if any bodies had unusual fibers on them, hair etc. That would be very important but again, all of that might also be lost in water.

[Indigator]

Motive? Single individual, multiple people, gangs? An e-mail/internet connection? If random then back to motive. Male or female? MOTIVE?

[SeriouslySearching]

Indigator, the most unusual hair was found in Chris Jenkins' hand...it was his own where he had pulled it out. There was also a mention of perhaps something else of significant evidence found there, too.

I think the water would also wash away an hair or fiber evidence unless, like the hair, was clutched or otherwise entwined with the clothing/body.

[SeriouslySearching]

Originally Posted by Indigator

Motive? Single individual, multiple people, gangs? An e-mail/internet connection? If random then back to motive. Male or female? MOTIVE?

I feel the motive had an urgency associated with it at the time the acts were committed, but not in the time between deaths. I think there was a "need" as perceived by the people involved and having some type of reward for the killings.

I fall into the camp of multiple people because of the various locations and the timing of certain deaths. I am beginning to believe the groups are both male and female with all of them involved on some level.

As I believe these people are above average intelligence, I think an internet connection is quite probable.

The only motives I could come up with have to do with drugs, sexual orientation (them not the vics), religion, hazing rituals, or the alcohol/male/age mixture and a definite hatred of all three.

You know, I made a flip comment about MADD...but could they have a splinter group within that organization as a payback for the deaths of their own children? Could the victims represent the man/men responsible for those deaths?