Found Deceased VT - Nicholas Garza, 19, Middlebury College student, 5 Feb 2008 - #5

[Littledeer]

[quote]The pot would also explain a sudden need for food and an irrational trip towards burgers and fries. [/QUOTE

Did I miss something??? Where has it been said or mentioned that Nick had this need?? Or even an irrational trip towards burgers and fries??

[Littledeer]

First time ever I have read a whole page of posts that should be deleted. LOL

If everyone beleives that Nick died from an accident, then this forum should quietly go away.

I am still searching for some answers to some contradictions, etc. and will continue to do so.

Natalie is back home with her family grieving the loss of her son. I wish I could go there for his funeral/memorial. I certainly hope the college will do one.

[Littledeer]

Bringing forward some questions I had at the beginning of this thread and adding to them:

A couple of questions:

1.) Can the call that was supposedly made on the 6th @ 8:30 a.m. (?) be traced to determine if it was an incoming call or one that was made from the cell?? Is this considered a ping?

2.) Also, it has been reported that the tracking dogs tracked Nick's whereabouts to a porch of a vacant house. Does anyone know if they let the dogs go into the house??? Who's to say that Nick and anyone else, did not go into this house??

If the cell was used at 8:30 a.m. (?) on the 6th, maybe Nick was still alive all night? (Nick was last seen according to a witness statement the night before), doesn't mean that he wasn't with someone else who hasn't been interviewed by LE yet.

3.) I don't mean to be disrespectful in any way to Nick or his family, but I find it hard to believe that Nick had no fractures of any sort. If Otter Creek was as turbulent as some of the pictures I've seen and Nick was lodged by logs and other debris, wouldn't the force of the water, etc. cause some type of injury to his head and or limbs?

Or even from a fall........

[geoffroi]

Originally Posted by Littledeer

First time ever I have read a whole page of posts that should be deleted. LOL

If everyone beleives that Nick died from an accident, then this forum should quietly go away.

I am still searching for some answers to some contradictions, etc. and will continue to do so.

Natalie is back home with her family grieving the loss of her son. I wish I could go there for his funeral/memorial. I certainly hope the college will do one.

Deleted? Because we feel that the evidence points to an accident?

[LionRun]

Littledeer, IIRC the dogs used most recently were scent specific search dogs, and IIRC from the Burlington Press video the dogs traced the same path 3 times. Again, IIRC at least one of the dogs jumped into the water. From training SAR dogs myself, it sounds like the dogs and handlers did a good job and were truly mission ready in that particular type of search. This leads me to think that they were more than likely reliable--and that is not always the case.

Had Nick actually gone into the house the dogs should have continued to hit on the door and sniffed at the crack in the door. I do not know if they did this; however, if they did I would think LE would then go into the house to search for Nick or evidence of any kind. If my recollection is correct and at least one dog jumped into the water then it indicates he went into the water possibly at that point. If a person stops and waits a while in one particular area, a well trained dog/handler team will usually know. The dog will usually stop at that point and circle around because of the excess scent. Stopping could be the result of someone taking a rest, or a struggle or for any reason. I don't know if the dogs trailed non-stop or if they stopped at certain points where Nick might have stopped.

For example, if he went to that abandoned house I wonder if the dogs stopped at the porch and circled. This is because chances are Nick would have gone to the door and stopped for at least a brief time (knocked at the door, tried to open the door, sat on the porch for a bit, etc..).

[arcadia03]

Natalie is back home with her family grieving the loss of her son. I wish I could go there for his funeral/memorial. I certainly hope the college will do one.

The college has announced that there will be a memorial service in the fall when all the students have returned from summer break.

[LionRun]

Originally Posted by arcadia03

The college has announced that there will be a memorial service in the fall when all the students have returned from summer break.

Thank you for letting us know, arcadia. I am glad they are doing this, and I hope that it helps heal even just one small bit for those who loved and cared about Nick.

[RR0004]

From an earlier post:


Fall Memorial Planned for Garza


Middlebury, Vermont - May 30, 2008
Middlebury College will wait until the fall to hold a memorial for Nick Garza.
The freshman's body was pulled from the Otter Creek this week after a four month search. He was last seen in February after he left a party on campus.



http://www.wcax.com/global/story.asp?s=8400400

The Memorial planned for Nicholas in N.M is June 28, 2008
__________________
Yours Truly,
Vermontn03

[RR0004]

Very valid points/ questions Littledeer. ITIR that the "cell" activity was listed as just that-some sort of response from the cell phone. I wonder if they can somehow retrieve info off of it after all this time in water. I suspect, with no proof mind you, that it was probably incoming activity. The point, though...it was still active. If he had been submerged in water for all that time (about 6-8 hours?), IMO it would have been kaput. It may have been mentioned, but was the creek searched after the missing person report was filed? In other words, did they go down to the creek and look for a body?

[christine2448]

Another email:

dear christine,

my child heard the info from a midd employee who spoke "off the record" and from one of the so-called "dungeon boys".......and did not speak with LE. it should be pointed out that the assumption by some that the "dungeon boys" were somehow a fringe or goth group is incorrect. the term truly does refer to the "English basement" window design......a similar architectural design on a dorm at my children's prep school resulted in its male occupants being similarly referred to as "dungeon boys" at that school. just wanted to clarify.

[christine2448]

These emails I am posting are from 2 different people...just FYI.



Thanks for your concern about my privacy. It's just a bunch of gossip, butat least it gives an idea of what the kids are talking about.I was watching the multimedia file at the Burlington Free Press (http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/legacy/slideshows/052808nickgarza/index.html)and I found something interesting. I had always read that Nick went straightto the McDonalds' after he left Stewart Hall. But if you watch themultimedia, at the minute 1:48 (that's counting it backwards) you'll see hemade a detour. It's difficult to explain but compare the photo Hanley isshowing with a campus map (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64886&page=15) and it mayhelp to understand.Nick left Stewart and started walking east, along the cemetery (if he wasbound to his room, he should have gone north). Once he walked past theService Building, he changed his mind and turned to the left. He walkednorth, around the Service Building, over its parking lots.Comparing the two maps, it looks like he was headed to the Mc CulloughsStudent Center, where the Grille is located. It's the campus restaurant, andit is usually open until 2 a.m., but it was closed due to the winter break.When he passed the Service Building, he might have seen the Grille lightswere out (or he remembered it was closed) and turned east again. He passedbetween the DKE Alumni house and the new library construction site, crossedSouth Main Street, passed in front of Porter House and went to the Center ofthe Arts (another unnecessary detour... he could have walked along thefields outer street, Porter Field Road). From there on, he walked eastin the straightest possible way, following the road and then the trail.So, I would say he was definitely looking for food. First to the Grille (itwas closed) and then to the McD or the Mobil mart on the other side of theriver. He wasn't disoriented at all, and the road he walked is quite darkand lonely. I remember walking towards the Center of the Arts in the middleof the night and being scared of falling down and breaking a leg -- nobodyto ask for help until daylight! And it wasn't even winter...The detour to the Center of the Arts puzzles me -- there's a cafeteria init, but I don't think it was open during break. Maybe he wanted to check ifit was.I don't believe there was a gang involved nor that he died in the party andwas dragged to the river. I considered that possibility, but after seeingthe scent trail, I have discarded it --- too many unnecessary turns! What Istill think it's possible, is that he was not alone, and that alcohol andmaybe pot were present -- what if he was walking with a friend and stoppedat the vacant house to smoke some he got at Stewart? He then might haveslipped on the icy side of the pathway and if his friend was toodrunk/stoned, he could do nothing to help.I don't know the"chipped tooth student" but if he really is XXXXXX as some people say,I have met some of his friends, a group of indie kids, and they dosmoke pot. That would explain the search for food -- maybe he got a bad caseof the "munchies", as kids say.

[Ballad]

Here is an article about some of the vandalism in December. An ex-employee held a party in an abandoned farmhouse owned by the college (incidentally, the house was previously owned by Robert Frost).
http://www.thebostonchannel.com/news...43/detail.html

[murdershewrote]

not sure what happened to my post yesterday...I typed my post on why I am strongly leaning toward an accidental death...i'm pretty sure I hit submit reply...but, hey, maybe technical difficulties. No big deal but I do hope their is room on this board for different viewpoints.

[thefragile7393]

Originally Posted by Littledeer

Bringing forward some questions I had at the beginning of this thread and adding to them:

A couple of questions:

1.) Can the call that was supposedly made on the 6th @ 8:30 a.m. (?) be traced to determine if it was an incoming call or one that was made from the cell?? Is this considered a ping?

2.) Also, it has been reported that the tracking dogs tracked Nick's whereabouts to a porch of a vacant house. Does anyone know if they let the dogs go into the house??? Who's to say that Nick and anyone else, did not go into this house??

If the cell was used at 8:30 a.m. (?) on the 6th, maybe Nick was still alive all night? (Nick was last seen according to a witness statement the night before), doesn't mean that he wasn't with someone else who hasn't been interviewed by LE yet.

3.) I don't mean to be disrespectful in any way to Nick or his family, but I find it hard to believe that Nick had no fractures of any sort. If Otter Creek was as turbulent as some of the pictures I've seen and Nick was lodged by logs and other debris, wouldn't the force of the water, etc. cause some type of injury to his head and or limbs?

Or even from a fall........

There are still conflicting reports as to whether or not Otter Creek was completely frozen over. Until these things are answered logically (the above questions and confirmed clarification of the status of Otter Creek when he disappeared) I'm not assuming accident. NOT ruling accident out either, but those questions should be answered first.

[LionRun]

Originally Posted by thefragile7393

There are still conflicting reports as to whether or not Otter Creek was completely frozen over. Until these things are answered logically (the above questions and confirmed clarification of the status of Otter Creek when he disappeared) I'm not assuming accident. NOT ruling accident out either, but those questions should be answered first.

I agree the fragile. I also think that the toxicology reports and any other variables out there need to be determined as best as possible before a final manner of death can be established. Sometimes, a manner of death is listed as, "undetermined", and I hope that will not be the case for dear Nick. I lean more towards it being an accident, but I am open minded and understand that it could have been due to other causes as well.

Prayers for all in Nick's family and all who loved and cared about him.

[Littledeer]

Deleted? Because we feel that the evidence points to an accident?

geoffroi:

No. Actually, no evidence has been obtained with 100% or even lesser that Nick's death was from an accident or otherwise. IMO, it's still open to discussion, etc. on what happened to Nick.

I posted that because it seemed like that page of posts, consisted of rumours, posts between posters and mod(s) on what ws TOS, etc.

I would like to say that I should be glad that due to my post, you posted your 6th comment here. Stop being a lurker...........

[Littledeer]

LionRun:

I'm not going to quote your post here for brevity. But a big thank you for the information on the SAR dogs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You brought up about a video presser on the dogs on where they hit at, etc.

Can you post that link? Even better, since I don't have speakers, is there a written article somewhere on what the dogs did???

[Littledeer]

christine:

I am quoting a part of your post that you got through an email:

I had always read that Nick went straightto the McDonalds' after he left Stewart Hall.

Would you mind asking this person where he/she has read this at?? I know I've read tons of articles here and don't recall reading this anywhere.

Did she/he mean to say "heard" as opposed to "read" ????

[Littledeer]

RR & acardia:

Thanks for the information on the memorial.

Very valid points/ questions Littledeer. ITIR that the "cell" activity was listed as just that-some sort of response from the cell phone. I wonder if they can somehow retrieve info off of it after all this time in water. I suspect, with no proof mind you, that it was probably incoming activity. The point, though...it was still active. If he had been submerged in water for all that time (about 6-8 hours?), IMO it would have been kaput. It may have been mentioned, but was the creek searched after the missing person report was filed? In other words, did they go down to the creek and look for a body?

I am waiting for LE to publicly say what exactly happened with the cell phone "activity" on the morning of the 6th.

No, Otter creek was not searched right away. IIRC (HECK, I'm 99.9% sure on my answer).

[geoffroi]

Originally Posted by Littledeer

geoffroi:

No. Actually, no evidence has been obtained with 100% or even lesser that Nick's death was from an accident or otherwise. IMO, it's still open to discussion, etc. on what happened to Nick.

I posted that because it seemed like that page of posts, consisted of rumours, posts between posters and mod(s) on what ws TOS, etc.

I would like to say that I should be glad that due to my post, you posted your 6th comment here. Stop being a lurker...........

Define lurker please. Is a lurker someone who posts only when they have something to say? If so I'm a lurker. Actually I'm familiar with the term but I have never heard it used as a perjorative. Maybe you didn't mean it to be one. I hope not.>

[RR0004]

Originally Posted by geoffroi

Define lurker please. Is a lurker someone who posts only when they have something to say? If so I'm a lurker. Actually I'm familiar with the term but I have never heard it used as a perjorative. Maybe you didn't mean it to be one. I hope not.>

Of course not! It's a term often used on the boards, especially when people decide to jump in.

[geoffroi]

O.K. And I admit that I am not quite following the cell phone ping aspect of this case. Perhaps therein lies an important clue. As for rumours wherever there is a dearth of facts rumours will always rush in to fill the void.

[Littledeer]

Thanks RR for explaining to Geoff. No intention of my reply being meant as being perjorative intended.

(Let's check out your sense of humor........up to 9 posts)

While taking care of my own life I have been thinking of Nick. Here are some more questions I thought of today. Maybe they have already been asked and answered.

I was talking to my son who is also in college and it hit me that he called me!!! LOL Anyways, he said all rooms had a phone provided to them. Which made me wonder, IIRC, Nick's cell phone charger was found plugged in his room...............could he have gone back to his room to charge his phone and used the college's phone to place a call or calls? Has this been checked out?

Another thought that has been nagging me. IIRC, Nick was last seen wearing a red shirt, but yet IIRC, he was found with a "blue hooded sweatshirt".

Where did this blue hooded sweatshirt come from? In his room while he was charging his phone? From someone else??

Feel free to correct me as I have not posted any links to back up what I have said.

[LionRun]

Originally Posted by Littledeer

LionRun:

I'm not going to quote your post here for brevity. But a big thank you for the information on the SAR dogs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You brought up about a video presser on the dogs on where they hit at, etc.

Can you post that link? Even better, since I don't have speakers, is there a written article somewhere on what the dogs did???

Littledeer, I tried to reply to you earlier today, and my high speed went down. I only have dial-up at 1.5kbs/sec right now, so I can't get video up, and it is very cumbersome to attempt to search for the link. I am sooo sorry. I can tell you that the link for the video release (sorry again--I don't know if there is an article with it to read) was from The Burlington Free Press, IIRC. I think the link may be on one of the pages of this or the previous thread. Perhaps someone can find it for you. I sooooo wish I could do better than this.

[vtgirl]

Little mDeer,

Great questions about the room phone and the sweatshirt!

vtgirl