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05-06-2012, 07:21 PM
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Alouette, je te plumerai
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We "solved" two old case here. One, a girl that disappeared in 1912. She's still technically missing but someone found an obscure article about an abortion doctor that was discovered because a few of his patients died and they confirmed she was one of his patients. Another was that a girl disappeared from her college and we found out she was a witness to a crime, may have been forced into prostitution and then her family threw her in a mental institution but told LE not to release that info. Of course because it has been sooo long since both instances, they are still open as we can't really prove either one though we've found news articles and books.
After that happened I realized there have to be more cases that we can find tons of missing info from old news articles.
I think we need to take this in a different direction until we find out more info. Just because there haven't been other people whose demise was similar to Lonnie's doesn't mean there weren't any. I would be curious to find out of any missing children in the area over the decades. Maybe figure out where the key players lived out their lives - the logger, the step-dad and the teens. Follow their movements, see if any news articles of the day indicate any missing kids because they won't be in NAMUS or anything like that right now. I personally think there's more criminal history with Orrin that we could uncover.
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05-06-2012, 09:43 PM
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Was Lonnie's body found the morning after he was killed or days later? It seems I've seen both times stated on this thread.
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05-06-2012, 11:10 PM
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Hi,
I just heard about that case in the radio show, read over that thread and try to get my fist thoughts together for it. So all following is just my opinion:
- was Lonnie before the strangulation beaten or stomped on? If not, we can forget William Guatney, his signature included beaten to death or stomped to death.
- Lonnie was seen away from the fair. That means, it was probably none of the carny guy. How would one of them come to that place, miles from the carnival?
- TOD was about four hours after Lonnie ate on the carnival. Since he was there till late, the time, the carnival closed was THE LATEST possible time, he ate. So when did the carnival or especially the parts of it with food, close? If it is where I grew up (on another continent,s o maybe entirely different), that would be 10:30 pm stop food, 11:00 pm closing the fair. Would that be correct also in the 50s in Orofino?
- The killer(s) took something, therefore the grotesque bent hands. But it wasn't a restraint. Lonnie was still restrained with the handkerchief. My guess is, he was bound to something or maybe even pulled up. Hopefully, LE shot some detail photos of the trees around. But the more interesting thought is, why took the killer, whatever he took, with him when he went? I can see only one reason: Not the item itself but the method in which it was used is a connection to the killer. So, there must be cases with a similar but not identically MO.
- While the rape itself shows some routine, the murder part remains a little unclear to me. It is so textbook and then so not. Strangulation appears so much more likely in a case like that, so why slashing the throat. And then this positioning? Appears to me, he gave some thought to it, it didn't came naturally to the killer. So there is some chance, he has more experience as rapist than as murderer.
- If he really stood around pondering how to kill the boy, the time, he had him was longer than the maybe 15 minutes, he would have needed for the crime itself. Since the body was found only days later, footprints would be gone with the technical possibilities of the 50s.
So, and please don't take that as complete profile, just as first thoughts, I think:
- 15-25 years, but rather in the 20-25 part.
- has a car
- is local at least from the wider area
- has probably commuted rapes of boys in neighboring jurisdictions, but not murder. Given the stigma, also a rape victim in a case of homosexual rape had to bear back then, there is some probability, those rapes or at least nor all of them were reported.
- People who knew him would maybe remember, he had a knife with him. Without autopsy report and photos, it's hard to say, but it doesn't need to have much bigger than a pocket knife.
- People who knew him, would also remember a certain taste for war movies, especially those with some kind of commando troops in them. The way to slash the throat is a copy of the methods, such troops used in movies of the 50s to take out guards and posts.
- he is Caucasian
- he would have wife or at least girl friend. In fact, if girlfriend, maybe a number of them because he would do anything to hide his homosexuality.
- for the same reason, he would appear when in company of other males the same age as kind of a cliche of machismo, including sports interests.
- If I'm right and the clenched hands stem from pulling Lonnie up with hands on the back, the ME report should indicate damage to the shoulder joints, and if that is the case, the offender is relative strong and sportive (well, or was in the 50s), which is again consistent with with the behavior in company of other men.
- In the months after the murder, he would have thought about options to leave the area. Such options include enlisting to the military. If so, he would have been dismissed at some point for "medical reasons", which back in the day was the term for "kicked because gay".
Okay, just a few thoughts to start with. To make that watertight, a lot more information is needed, though.
Peter
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05-07-2012, 12:59 AM
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Is it safe to say that it's more possible for a man to have done this to him than a woman? I read Lonnie was sexually assaulted. Back in the 50's (assuming it was a man who did this) homosexuality was much more frowned upon than nowadays. Any chance the motive for this was some random angry and frustrated person at the fair, who perhaps liked his same gender and was troubled by concealing it from society?
Brings me to the question of 1. Did Lonnie know his abductor, would have he gone with someone he didn't know and 2. Did this person(s) set out to find a child to harm, or was he a disorganized criminal?
Any other cases in the 40s-60s similar to Lonnies?
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05-07-2012, 03:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Brendt
Hi,
I just heard about that case in the radio show, read over that thread and try to get my fist thoughts together for it. So all following is just my opinion:
- was Lonnie before the strangulation beaten or stomped on? If not, we can forget William Guatney, his signature included beaten to death or stomped to death.
- Lonnie was seen away from the fair. That means, it was probably none of the carny guy. How would one of them come to that place, miles from the carnival?
- TOD was about four hours after Lonnie ate on the carnival. Since he was there till late, the time, the carnival closed was THE LATEST possible time, he ate. So when did the carnival or especially the parts of it with food, close? If it is where I grew up (on another continent,s o maybe entirely different), that would be 10:30 pm stop food, 11:00 pm closing the fair. Would that be correct also in the 50s in Orofino?
- The killer(s) took something, therefore the grotesque bent hands. But it wasn't a restraint. Lonnie was still restrained with the handkerchief. My guess is, he was bound to something or maybe even pulled up. Hopefully, LE shot some detail photos of the trees around. But the more interesting thought is, why took the killer, whatever he took, with him when he went? I can see only one reason: Not the item itself but the method in which it was used is a connection to the killer. So, there must be cases with a similar but not identically MO.
- While the rape itself shows some routine, the murder part remains a little unclear to me. It is so textbook and then so not. Strangulation appears so much more likely in a case like that, so why slashing the throat. And then this positioning? Appears to me, he gave some thought to it, it didn't came naturally to the killer. So there is some chance, he has more experience as rapist than as murderer.
- If he really stood around pondering how to kill the boy, the time, he had him was longer than the maybe 15 minutes, he would have needed for the crime itself. Since the body was found only days later, footprints would be gone with the technical possibilities of the 50s.
So, and please don't take that as complete profile, just as first thoughts, I think:
- 15-25 years, but rather in the 20-25 part.
- has a car
- is local at least from the wider area
- has probably commuted rapes of boys in neighboring jurisdictions, but not murder. Given the stigma, also a rape victim in a case of homosexual rape had to bear back then, there is some probability, those rapes or at least nor all of them were reported.
- People who knew him would maybe remember, he had a knife with him. Without autopsy report and photos, it's hard to say, but it doesn't need to have much bigger than a pocket knife.
- People who knew him, would also remember a certain taste for war movies, especially those with some kind of commando troops in them. The way to slash the throat is a copy of the methods, such troops used in movies of the 50s to take out guards and posts.
- he is Caucasian
- he would have wife or at least girl friend. In fact, if girlfriend, maybe a number of them because he would do anything to hide his homosexuality.
- for the same reason, he would appear when in company of other males the same age as kind of a cliche of machismo, including sports interests.
- If I'm right and the clenched hands stem from pulling Lonnie up with hands on the back, the ME report should indicate damage to the shoulder joints, and if that is the case, the offender is relative strong and sportive (well, or was in the 50s), which is again consistent with with the behavior in company of other men.
- In the months after the murder, he would have thought about options to leave the area. Such options include enlisting to the military. If so, he would have been dismissed at some point for "medical reasons", which back in the day was the term for "kicked because gay".
Okay, just a few thoughts to start with. To make that watertight, a lot more information is needed, though.
Peter
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Thanks for the post!
You make some excellent points.
The handkerchief was used to blindfold Lonnie.
We dont know what his hands were bound with obviously something his killer did not want to leave.
Most of what I have to go on is contemporary news accounts...I havent found any reports even in some of the five and ten year retrospectives in the papers about the case that say they had determined any definite sightings of Lonnie or anyone who saw him after his Grandmother.
Other then the two Kamiah boys and they say nothing about it being confirmed that he stayed to work at the Carnival.
Its certainly not out of the question...I used to help tear down the Carnival myself back in the 70's though Lonnie would have been a little young for that kind of work.
Also the boys ran across Lonnie and gave him a ride around 12:30...the tear down work wouldnt have been done until around 5 am.
So I kind of doubt he was working on the carnival.
And your right,in my experience the food booths would have been done by 10 pm or so and the Rides done and tear down begun by 11 pm.
As far as his method of death goes from reading what the police told the papers it would appear his killer removed him from the car,walked him to the edge of the road blindfolded....and then slashed his throat from ear to ear with two strokes from behind then essentially straight armed him over the bank.
I too find it hard to beleive anyone capable of such savagery never killed before or after.
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05-07-2012, 06:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimster
 Lonnie is our featured cold case from 5/6/12 to 5/13/12 |
Thanks Kimster!
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05-07-2012, 06:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Claudette
We "solved" two old case here. One, a girl that disappeared in 1912. She's still technically missing but someone found an obscure article about an abortion doctor that was discovered because a few of his patients died and they confirmed she was one of his patients. Another was that a girl disappeared from her college and we found out she was a witness to a crime, may have been forced into prostitution and then her family threw her in a mental institution but told LE not to release that info. Of course because it has been sooo long since both instances, they are still open as we can't really prove either one though we've found news articles and books.
After that happened I realized there have to be more cases that we can find tons of missing info from old news articles.
I think we need to take this in a different direction until we find out more info. Just because there haven't been other people whose demise was similar to Lonnie's doesn't mean there weren't any. I would be curious to find out of any missing children in the area over the decades. Maybe figure out where the key players lived out their lives - the logger, the step-dad and the teens. Follow their movements, see if any news articles of the day indicate any missing kids because they won't be in NAMUS or anything like that right now. I personally think there's more criminal history with Orrin that we could uncover.
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Of course we know Orrin was in trouble on a contributing to the deliquency beef a mere couple of weeks after Lonnie's body was found but I havent found any other info as of yet .
Apparently investigators subjected him to a Sodium Penathol treatment Re: Lonnie and they were satisfied there was no connection.
Im not as impressed by his passing such an examination as they were but,oh well.
As far as any missing children in the area,im not really aware of any until the early 80's.
But thats part of the problem with this case when you look at the known factors of Lonnie's murder: its hard to feature it as a stand alone one-off.
Though I find the notion of a intinerant out of state serial killer just happening on Lonnie in Greer and disposing of him where he did highly unlikely.
I could see some local Closet Case picking him up on the way up the hill to Weippe then panicking but then its hard to explain the absolutely resolutely merciless and cold blooded way he was executed.
I doubt Jack the Ripper could have done it better or more dispassionately.
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05-07-2012, 09:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kline
Thanks for the post!
You make some excellent points.
The handkerchief was used to blindfold Lonnie.
We dont know what his hands were bound with obviously something his killer did not want to leave.
Most of what I have to go on is contemporary news accounts...I havent found any reports even in some of the five and ten year retrospectives in the papers about the case that say they had determined any definite sightings of Lonnie or anyone who saw him after his Grandmother.
Other then the two Kamiah boys and they say nothing about it being confirmed that he stayed to work at the Carnival.
Its certainly not out of the question...I used to help tear down the Carnival myself back in the 70's though Lonnie would have been a little young for that kind of work.
Also the boys ran across Lonnie and gave him a ride around 12:30...the tear down work wouldnt have been done until around 5 am.
So I kind of doubt he was working on the carnival.
And your right,in my experience the food booths would have been done by 10 pm or so and the Rides done and tear down begun by 11 pm.
As far as his method of death goes from reading what the police told the papers it would appear his killer removed him from the car,walked him to the edge of the road blindfolded....and then slashed his throat from ear to ear with two strokes from behind then essentially straight armed him over the bank.
I too find it hard to beleive anyone capable of such savagery never killed before or after.
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Problem is, we are maybe rather looking for rapes than murders before Lonnie. After that? I don't know, if this is really an SK case, but if so, the MO would change in the next few murders since the offender would be still in the phase to find himself and hone his methods.
Peter
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05-07-2012, 08:04 PM
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On Time Out
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin Hood
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This IS interesting. He raped a 15 yr old boy in October, 51 in Lewiston. Hmmmm..........
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05-08-2012, 06:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin Hood
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Intriguiging!
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05-08-2012, 06:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Claudette
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Some facinating stuff!
You know it amazing that people consider the 40's and 50's to be such a wholesome peaceful time...especially in a largely rural place like Idaho but you start looking at these Newspaper archives and there was all sorts of twisted mayhem going on that would rival anything in the papers today.
And yes it is most interesting to speculate what a guy like this Cunningham would have done had he happened on Lonnie by the side of the road.
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05-08-2012, 08:33 AM
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So Cunningham was locked up when Lonnie was killed. Someone needs to do a thread on those 2 sisters who disappeared as well as their mom. What the HELL is in the water in Idaho?
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05-08-2012, 11:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scriptgirl
So Cunningham was locked up when Lonnie was killed. Someone needs to do a thread on those 2 sisters who disappeared as well as their mom. What the HELL is in the water in Idaho?
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I will apologise if I'm wrong but they way I read it it's possible he was 'out'
Maybe it's just me not getting my head around it.
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05-09-2012, 07:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scriptgirl
So Cunningham was locked up when Lonnie was killed. Someone needs to do a thread on those 2 sisters who disappeared as well as their mom. What the HELL is in the water in Idaho?
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I was wonderin the same thing Script girl!
Idaho obviously had more then it fair share of deviants in the 1950's Good Lord.
You know one of my original premises was that Lonnie's murder was such a Non Seqiter of the horrific variety to such a little rural Idaho community .
The sad part is the more I see these peripheral Idaho cases from the same time period some of you excellent sleuthers have uncovered im starting to think Lonnies death wasnt that out of context.
At least not in this state at that time.
Ill tell you guys one thing I may have started this thread but ive learned far more then ive contributed,thanks again to everyone!
By the way my co-worker Shelly from Weippe who went out with Orin Wood's son(since deceased)years ago is going to be doing a little checking around for me since she's familar with aot of the names Ausgirl and others have come up with.
She is also going to stop by the cemetary and visit Lonnie's grave since she was going there anyway to bring flowers to someone elses headstone.
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05-09-2012, 08:26 AM
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Where IS Ausgirl?
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05-09-2012, 03:02 PM
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She was ill a while ago, then was getting better, she was going to email some folk re. Elfrieda Knack then since then I've heard nothing, zilch.
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05-09-2012, 03:09 PM
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On Time Out
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin Hood
I will apologise if I'm wrong but they way I read it it's possible he was 'out'
Maybe it's just me not getting my head around it.
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I think you are right. He was apparently out and free in the general area when Lonnie was killed.
According to the article linked upthread, he raped a 15 yr old boy in October of 1951,in Lewiston. So that was just a month later than Lonnie's murder.
And the guy had NINE kids. So he could probably have talked Lonnie into going with him, if he approached him as a concerned father type.
ETA: Lewiston is only bout 65 miles away from the crime scene.
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05-09-2012, 03:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katydid23
I think you are right. He was apparently out and free in the general area when Lonnie was killed.
According to the article linked upthread, he raped a 15 yr old boy in October of 1951,in Lewiston. So that was just a month later than Lonnie's murder.
And the guy had NINE kids. So he could probably have talked Lonnie into going with him, if he approached him as a concerned father type.
ETA: Lewiston is only bout 65 miles away from the crime scene.
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Thanks, I thought I was going mad.
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05-09-2012, 03:39 PM
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On Time Out
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin Hood
Thanks, I thought I was going mad.
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I think this CUnningham guy is a viable suspect for Lonnie's murder. He was given LIFE in prison for his assault on a 15 yr old boy in October of 1951. The fact that he was given LIFE makes me think it was a pretty brutal assault.
I wonder if he was ever looked at by the investigators in this case?
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05-09-2012, 03:44 PM
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05-09-2012, 03:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katydid23
I think this CUnningham guy is a viable suspect for Lonnie's murder. He was given LIFE in prison for his assault on a 15 yr old boy in October of 1951. The fact that he was given LIFE makes me think it was a pretty brutal assault.
I wonder if he was ever looked at by the investigators in this case?
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It would account for no further crimes of that nature if he was locked up. I would certainly put him high on a list. I would be curious be looking to see how the case of the boy played out, was he restrained, was a knife used etc.
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05-09-2012, 04:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin Hood
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I don't know what to make of that family history. Got to be some skeletons hidden in the family closet. JMO
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