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  #501  
Old 06-01-2012, 11:22 AM
Robin Hood Robin Hood is offline
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Kline, you are right about the approach to LE.

Peter, I would say he did go to the movies because of the popcorn found in his stomach with the hamburger. It could have been the earlier showing rather than the later one but the late showing does seem to fit with the timeline.
How would a stranger know the dumpsite and drive that far from the fair ? I don't know.
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  #502  
Old 06-01-2012, 11:30 AM
Robin Hood Robin Hood is offline
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Sorry didn't see your post Peter ( I went to get a coffee)

I thought myself that Cunningham could have been with a group of blokes waiting to pull down the fair, eating burgers and chatting. Plenty of construction companies maybe giving Cunningham work in the area or relatives living in Weippe, he's in his 40's so he's got 20 odd years of driving and working.
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  #503  
Old 06-01-2012, 11:56 AM
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Sorry didn't see your post Peter ( I went to get a coffee)

I thought myself that Cunningham could have been with a group of blokes waiting to pull down the fair, eating burgers and chatting. Plenty of construction companies maybe giving Cunningham work in the area or relatives living in Weippe, he's in his 40's so he's got 20 odd years of driving and working.
As I wrote, Cunningham would be local enough to be there AND also know the kill site. And otherwise, the places are so near to each other that basically a few steps would bring you from the fair property into the cinema vicinity. So yes, it's a possibility.

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  #504  
Old 06-03-2012, 03:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Peter Brendt View Post
As I wrote, Cunningham would be local enough to be there AND also know the kill site. And otherwise, the places are so near to each other that basically a few steps would bring you from the fair property into the cinema vicinity. So yes, it's a possibility.

Peter
Yeah,its only two short blocks from the fairgrounds to Johnson Avenue where the Rex Theater is located,you can walk it in about a minute.
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  #505  
Old 06-03-2012, 11:49 AM
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Yeah,its only two short blocks from the fairgrounds to Johnson Avenue where the Rex Theater is located,you can walk it in about a minute.
So one of our questions to LE would be what did Cunningham drive at the time
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  #506  
Old 06-04-2012, 02:35 AM
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I had forgotten about this case, then spotted it again. Some great progress has been made here. Peter Brent, your profile post was marvelous.

I think I've read all the posts here, but can't place the Cunningham person. Who was he, if someone is willing to give brief rundown?

Having been through Idaho as a child, and having seen some the videos posted here, I have a very good mind's eye view of the area around Greer. That said, there is for sure one person who was driving a vehicle that night, and could have easily located Lonnie because he would have known where to find him, and that's the driver of the four teens who picked Lonnie up and dropped him at the Greer Bridge.

The articles only say that the two girls vouched getting home around 1:00AM. Perhaps that's as far as the LE there thought they needed to check to back up the teen boys' story. Could not the teen who was driving have driven back to Greer after dropping everyone off, and found Lonnie within the proper time frame, albeit pushing things a bit?

It just seems to me, given the area, the desolation, that the teen with the wheels is the bird in the hand here.
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  #507  
Old 06-04-2012, 03:23 AM
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Originally Posted by justthinkin View Post
I had forgotten about this case, then spotted it again. Some great progress has been made here. Peter Brent, your profile post was marvelous.

I think I've read all the posts here, but can't place the Cunningham person. Who was he, if someone is willing to give brief rundown?

Having been through Idaho as a child, and having seen some the videos posted here, I have a very good mind's eye view of the area around Greer. That said, there is for sure one person who was driving a vehicle that night, and could have easily located Lonnie because he would have known where to find him, and that's the driver of the four teens who picked Lonnie up and dropped him at the Greer Bridge.

The articles only say that the two girls vouched getting home around 1:00AM. Perhaps that's as far as the LE there thought they needed to check to back up the teen boys' story. Could not the teen who was driving have driven back to Greer after dropping everyone off, and found Lonnie within the proper time frame, albeit pushing things a bit?

It just seems to me, given the area, the desolation, that the teen with the wheels is the bird in the hand here.
Seems, there was no extra driver. One of the teen boys drove. If I remember right, driving age back then started with 16 in the US, at least in some states.
Cunningham was a local guy, I think, he did carpenter work mostly. He was arrested in Oct. 51 for molesting a 15 year old boy.
Chances are, he was around, making money by helping to break up the fair. Chances are also, he drove a truck or van which would fit the profile as well. And for sure, he was interested in boys in the nubile age bracket which goes for boys about 10-15. He was also local, I think Weippe, which means he probably knew the crime scene and as I pointed out in the profile, this one was chosen, it was no accident. Add to that a history of petty crime and as it looks domestic violence and you see, why he is interesting.

Peter
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  #508  
Old 06-04-2012, 06:32 PM
Robin Hood Robin Hood is offline
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Justthinkin - here's Walter

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...lewiston&hl=en

IIRC he was arrested in Lewiston for the morals charge that happened on 15th Oct '51
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  #509  
Old 06-04-2012, 10:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Peter Brendt View Post
Seems, there was no extra driver. One of the teen boys drove. If I remember right, driving age back then started with 16 in the US, at least in some states.
Cunningham was a local guy, I think, he did carpenter work mostly. He was arrested in Oct. 51 for molesting a 15 year old boy.
Chances are, he was around, making money by helping to break up the fair. Chances are also, he drove a truck or van which would fit the profile as well. And for sure, he was interested in boys in the nubile age bracket which goes for boys about 10-15. He was also local, I think Weippe, which means he probably knew the crime scene and as I pointed out in the profile, this one was chosen, it was no accident. Add to that a history of petty crime and as it looks domestic violence and you see, why he is interesting.

Peter
Didn't say anything about an extra driver, but that's neither here nor there. Cunningham looks very good as a suspect, numero uno given his background. Second on the list, imo would be the teen driver that dropped Lonnie off.

I'm having trouble imagining a 12 year old, small for his age, would risk that long of a trek to Weippe at that time of night. Idaho is bear country, grizzlies and blackies, not to mention mountain lions on the prowl, and this kid had already been frightened by something or someone. Which it is, we don't know. Sure would be great if we could get that info out of LE or perhaps get in touch with the , back then, teens. The girls would've probably picked up more on Lonnie's fears or been more concerned than the two teen guys in the vehicle.

What info confirms the vehicle associated with Lonnie's death was a delivery truck or is that just an educated guess?
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  #510  
Old 06-04-2012, 11:30 PM
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Didn't say anything about an extra driver, but that's neither here nor there. Cunningham looks very good as a suspect, numero uno given his background. Second on the list, imo would be the teen driver that dropped Lonnie off.

I'm having trouble imagining a 12 year old, small for his age, would risk that long of a trek to Weippe at that time of night. Idaho is bear country, grizzlies and blackies, not to mention mountain lions on the prowl, and this kid had already been frightened by something or someone. Which it is, we don't know. Sure would be great if we could get that info out of LE or perhaps get in touch with the , back then, teens. The girls would've probably picked up more on Lonnie's fears or been more concerned than the two teen guys in the vehicle.

What info confirms the vehicle associated with Lonnie's death was a delivery truck or is that just an educated guess?
Nothing says anything about an extra driver, but two boys, plus two girls plus Lonnie, that's five seats, at least till the girls were dropped off. Seems to me, the girls weren't from Greer.
Back in 1951, and especially a kid who grew up mostly "wild", as in without too much parental control, it happened all the time. Hitchhiking back then wasn't see as as dangerous as today. But then, you still see it all the time. So yes, hard to imagine and still, it happens all the time.
The delivery vehicle was a conclusion from the ready-to-rape position the body was found in. That was immediate reliving, indicating, it was the actual rape position as well. Which means, the offender drove a car, he couldn't bend Lonnie over the hood or the trunk. But then, profiling is usual educated guess and a lot of people don't believe in it. So there is room for doubt, even those people need nowadays average 21 years to catch an SK ...

Peter
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  #511  
Old 06-05-2012, 04:39 PM
Robin Hood Robin Hood is offline
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Question for Kline (or anybody else local) does the Nez perce/Lewiston county fair follow the Clearwater fair a week or so after Clearwater has theirs ?
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  #512  
Old 06-07-2012, 01:24 PM
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Carpenter's vice

Hi,

I had a longer talk with JeannieC, mostly Texas Killing Fields Thread here on WS, and she reminded me of something, she suspected a long time ago in this thread (Lonnie's thread):

The injuries of the fingers are maybe not scratching but squeezing injuries. What, if the killer used a carpenter's vice to restrain Lonnie's hands by just squeezing his fingers in? That would be consistent with the little, we actually know about those injuries, it would explain, the strange way, the hands were bent and it would fit the profile because it would explain the need of the killer to remove the restraints and take them with them. I profiled, there was something about those restraints, that connected the way of restraining with the killer and that could be it, especially since no article I found here, mentioned other, more conventional restraining marks.
Kline, if you speak with LE, may you can mention, that it would be wise to have a look on photos of the fingers. A midsize vice would also leave injuries down to the bones and if the fingertips are stuck in, not through such a vice, may would appear as scratch wounds going along the first phalanges of the fingers.

Peter
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  #513  
Old 06-07-2012, 01:58 PM
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I remember JeannieC suggesting that and at the time did give it some thought, I must admit since discovering a possible 'carpenter' connection it may deserve more thought.
However, at the time I thought, wouldn't that hold the fingers firm and stop them from being scratched but possibly detatach the joint at the 2nd knuckle (as Peter says)
Crime scene photos needed I think.
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  #514  
Old 06-07-2012, 02:23 PM
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I remember JeannieC suggesting that and at the time did give it some thought, I must admit since discovering a possible 'carpenter' connection it may deserve more thought.
However, at the time I thought, wouldn't that hold the fingers firm and stop them from being scratched but possibly detatach the joint at the 2nd knuckle (as Peter says)
Crime scene photos needed I think.
Just to make clear before my clumsy English causes confusion: A vice wouldn't detach the joint, a vice would squeeze away the tissue over the first joint. The point is, with enough pressure, the injuries would look like scratch injuries down to the bone only more sideways than exclusively at the tips.

Peter
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  #515  
Old 06-07-2012, 02:37 PM
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Ah, I see.

I was thinking if Lonnie tried to move while his fingers were held firm he would detach his joints rather than scrape anything. I see what you mean about the injuries being along the edge of his finger outline. Crushing and maybe popping the skin.
A friend of mine had a hand rolled over by a car tyre and it 'popped' the skin on the outside of the fingers rather than the palms.
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  #516  
Old 06-07-2012, 02:51 PM
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Ah, I see.

I was thinking if Lonnie tried to move while his fingers were held firm he would detach his joints rather than scrape anything. I see what you mean about the injuries being along the edge of his finger outline. Crushing and maybe popping the skin.
A friend of mine had a hand rolled over by a car tyre and it 'popped' the skin on the outside of the fingers rather than the palms.
Much thinner tissue on the fingers. And if the pressure is on the first phalange, I would exclude popping of the skin around the finger tip either, since this tissue would lose all hold if the tissue above the first finger knuckle pops.
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Old 06-08-2012, 08:48 AM
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why does it take 21 years average to catch a serial killer?
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Old 06-08-2012, 10:21 AM
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why does it take 21 years average to catch a serial killer?
It didn't take always 21 years. In 15th century, the average career time over the documented cases was nearer to 3 years, in 16th centuries, it was nearer 4 years, in 17th century, SKs had rather a career time expectancy of about two years. In 18th, it was a little over 3 years and in 19th century a little under. Most of 20th century, with bigger populations, more nationalism (aka more and harsher guarded borders over which an SK could flee), time went up. I have no numbers for decades, but the most known cases in Europe were so between 4 and 5 years.
In the US, during the 1970, for most of them, time was under 4 years, only in some cases, the courts let them run again. And in the 1990s, after the attempt to ban profiling or formalize it, because people started to believe, everything could be done with DNA alone, time went up to about 15 years and in our century, the idea to keep everything people and cut the public out, raised times more than ever. Add to that, that after 9/11 BAU-2 and -3 lost most of their good men to counter terrorism and there you go.

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Old 06-08-2012, 12:54 PM
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It didn't take always 21 years. In 15th century, the average career time over the documented cases was nearer to 3 years, in 16th centuries, it was nearer 4 years, in 17th century, SKs had rather a career time expectancy of about two years. In 18th, it was a little over 3 years and in 19th century a little under. Most of 20th century, with bigger populations, more nationalism (aka more and harsher guarded borders over which an SK could flee), time went up. I have no numbers for decades, but the most known cases in Europe were so between 4 and 5 years.
In the US, during the 1970, for most of them, time was under 4 years, only in some cases, the courts let them run again. And in the 1990s, after the attempt to ban profiling or formalize it, because people started to believe, everything could be done with DNA alone, time went up to about 15 years and in our century, the idea to keep everything people and cut the public out, raised times more than ever. Add to that, that after 9/11 BAU-2 and -3 lost most of their good men to counter terrorism and there you go.

Peter
I've never looked at it like that, but it makes perfect sense.
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  #520  
Old 06-08-2012, 01:53 PM
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I've never looked at it like that, but it makes perfect sense.
Well, while it is perfectly correct, it makes actually no sense. But then, the FBI just published a white book about how to ignore details in a serial killer investigation and that doesn't make sense to me either ...

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  #521  
Old 06-08-2012, 02:02 PM
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It makes sense to me that as populations exploded there were more killers and more places to hide, when towns and villages were small anyone out of place was instantly noticed and folk knew who in their village was a little 'weird'.
That's how I see it.
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Old 06-08-2012, 02:16 PM
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It makes sense to me that as populations exploded there were more killers and more places to hide, when towns and villages were small anyone out of place was instantly noticed and folk knew who in their village was a little 'weird'.
That's how I see it.
And starting around the 60's, there was much more travel and relocation across the country. People were coming and going and towns were flooded with 'strangers' unlike the old days, where you knew everyone and their family.
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  #523  
Old 06-08-2012, 02:28 PM
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And starting around the 60's, there was much more travel and relocation across the country. People were coming and going and towns were flooded with 'strangers' unlike the old days, where you knew everyone and their family.
Funny thing is, while there are no comprehensive statistics, the data material appears to indicate the number of victims of serial killers per 100,000 population seems to be almost constant (during and after WWI and WWII and after Vietnam seems to be a little lower number for some years).
So my conclusion is, there were always SKs and the always made up a pretty constant share in the population. Only certain typologies got the way of the Dodo while others popped up more. We have for example more medium and high organized SKs now than in the 70s. Which is probably because our media and TV shows train them better nowadays.

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Old 06-08-2012, 03:33 PM
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I agree that our film and tv shows are educating them to the ways the FBI can track them. I wish it wasn't working that way.
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Old 06-08-2012, 03:49 PM
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I agree that our film and tv shows are educating them to the ways the FBI can track them. I wish it wasn't working that way.
On the other hand, the high organized ones are not so much harder to catch than the low organized ones. The difference is only, you have to look closer at the details ... wait, wasn't there an FBI white book lately ...
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