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  #51  
Old 11-09-2011, 06:23 AM
kline kline is offline
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Originally Posted by liz b. View Post
TY Kline... even more interesting if it was,in fact,Lonnie's handerchief. And I'm thinking it must have been a bandana type of handkerchief, a regular handkerchief would not be big enough to bind anyone with MOO.

Even after all this time,there might still be some telltale dna hiding on it...MOO After all,who would have thought back then what the future would hold in terms of forensic science ? MOO
Yes.I think it must have been a bandanna type too,carrying them was alot more common then.
The DNA angle is something ive contemplated as well...especially in light of the(unsubstantiated) rumors that it was relative that killed him.
That part of the legend was still alive and well when I first heard about the murder as a kid in the late 60's.
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  #52  
Old 11-09-2011, 01:28 PM
scriptgirl scriptgirl is offline
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What does MOO mean?
Does anyone know anything about Lonnie's family-were there any bad seeds? Any truth to a cousin of his that left town?
Also, does he still have family in the area?
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  #53  
Old 11-10-2011, 02:10 PM
kline kline is offline
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Originally Posted by scriptgirl View Post
What does MOO mean?
Does anyone know anything about Lonnie's family-were there any bad seeds? Any truth to a cousin of his that left town?
Also, does he still have family in the area?
I think 'MOO' is shorthand for'My Own Opinion' (I think)
I was able to find out little more information (some of which contradicts what I thought I knew of course).
Lonnie disappeared SATURDAY night of the Fair he was last seen by two high school boys a Bob Hill 19 and a Leroy Kidder 17 when they picked him up at the Orofino Bridge leading across the river to Highway 12 shortly after midnight which would make it the early morning of Sunday the 23rd.
They said he 'seemed a little frightened but 'his spirits had improved' by the time they dropped him off at Greer.
(Keep in mind these quotes are in early 50's 'Newspaper-ese' so God only know how they actually worded it.)
Lonnie had came to the Fair Saturday Morning 'With A Neighbor Family' and ran into his Grandmother also of Weippe about 4:00 pm she asked him to come home with her but he refused 'It was her impression he wanted to stay and see the movie playing at the Rex Theater that night.'
She gave him $5.00.(quite bundle for a kid at the Fair in 1951.)
When he never made it home there was massive search by volunteers along the grade between Weippe and Greer on Monday and Tuesday and Wednesday which of course turned up nothing.
At 6:30 AM Thursday morning a Weippe Logger named Orrin C. Woods stopped his logging truck for a 'rest stop' along HWY 12 and started over the bank towards the River about ten feet down he came across Lonnie's body in the weeds and rocks next to the water.
Now get this: His hands werent tied behind him as Id been told,by his handkerchief.
He was BLINDFOLDED with the Handkerchief and his wrists were bent up behind his back "In A Grotesque Position" (My first thought is handcuffs that were then removed when the body was dumped ,but who knows.)
The local paper headline that afternoon was "BOY RUNS AFOUL OF DEGENERATE"
Even weirder the investigation was placed in the hands of an 'Attorney and Former FBI agent' named Henry Savage who practiced in Colfax Washington...Im having trouble getting my mind around that one.
they brought in a pathologist from Boise named Joseph Beenan who determined from the contents of Lonnies stomach,the food he'd eaten at teh Fair that he died within four hours...the early morning hours after midnight on the 23rd.
"The Killer" the Pathologist said "stood behind him and took two slashes at his throat and Lonnie may have, judging by by the condition of the body(?) been able to frustrate any 'Deviant or Sexual impulse' on behalf of the Killer" (Double??).
The following weeks paper has a headline 'Community Recoils From Brutal Murder'.
It recaps info from the previous article and and says that" Inspite of erroneus Radio Reports and Street Gossip no arrests had been made"
It says "hundreds" had come forward with info that might aid in the investigation(What I wouldnt give to get my hands on those reports) and the local VFW had posted a 500 dollar reward for info leading to the apprehension of the killer.
and after that ...nothing I couldnt even find a mention of the case in papers for the next six weeks.Very Strange.
Anyway I have alot of re-figuring to do.
Any thoughts form you guys are most welcome.
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  #54  
Old 11-10-2011, 02:25 PM
scriptgirl scriptgirl is offline
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So, were his wrists broken and what do they mean, frustrating a Deviant?
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  #55  
Old 11-10-2011, 04:31 PM
kline kline is offline
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Originally Posted by scriptgirl View Post
So, were his wrists broken and what do they mean, frustrating a Deviant?
I dont know if they were broken or not,it just said 'bent into grotesque position behind back'.
Obviously the killer wanted to keep whatever Lonnie's hands were bound with.
I think the 'frustrating the killer' part was the powers that be trying to hedge or put out there for the benefit of his family or whoever that Lonnie was some how able to keep his killer from sodomizing him.
That that had happened apparently was common knowledge real quick to the public (hence the 'Boy Runs Afoul of Degenerate' headline)
Unfortunately back then even being the victim of a homosexual rape would carry a stigma.
There are just so many questions its going to be interesting to try and get answered at this late date.
Im going to see who I can track down who is still alive from the names Ive got.
Im still stunned that an attourney from another state (even though as the crow flies Colfax isnt that far away) was immediatly put in charge of the investigation...former FBI or not.
Apparently they had a different way of doing things in 1951.
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  #56  
Old 11-10-2011, 04:48 PM
liz b. liz b. is offline
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Originally Posted by kline View Post
I think 'MOO' is shorthand for'My Own Opinion' (I think)
I was able to find out little more information (some of which contradicts what I thought I knew of course).
Lonnie disappeared SATURDAY night of the Fair he was last seen by two high school boys a Bob Hill 19 and a Leroy Kidder 17 when they picked him up at the Orofino Bridge leading across the river to Highway 12 shortly after midnight which would make it the early morning of Sunday the 23rd.
They said he 'seemed a little frightened but 'his spirits had improved' by the time they dropped him off at Greer.
(Keep in mind these quotes are in early 50's 'Newspaper-ese' so God only know how they actually worded it.)
Lonnie had came to the Fair Saturday Morning 'With A Neighbor Family' and ran into his Grandmother also of Weippe about 4:00 pm she asked him to come home with her but he refused 'It was her impression he wanted to stay and see the movie playing at the Rex Theater that night.'
She gave him $5.00.(quite bundle for a kid at the Fair in 1951.)
When he never made it home there was massive search by volunteers along the grade between Weippe and Greer on Monday and Tuesday and Wednesday which of course turned up nothing.
At 6:30 AM Thursday morning a Weippe Logger named Orrin C. Woods stopped his logging truck for a 'rest stop' along HWY 12 and started over the bank towards the River about ten feet down he came across Lonnie's body in the weeds and rocks next to the water.
Now get this: His hands werent tied behind him as Id been told,by his handkerchief.
He was BLINDFOLDED with the Handkerchief and his wrists were bent up behind his back "In A Grotesque Position" (My first thought is handcuffs that were then removed when the body was dumped ,but who knows.)
The local paper headline that afternoon was "BOY RUNS AFOUL OF DEGENERATE"
Even weirder the investigation was placed in the hands of an 'Attorney and Former FBI agent' named Henry Savage who practiced in Colfax Washington...Im having trouble getting my mind around that one.
they brought in a pathologist from Boise named Joseph Beenan who determined from the contents of Lonnies stomach,the food he'd eaten at teh Fair that he died within four hours...the early morning hours after midnight on the 23rd.
"The Killer" the Pathologist said "stood behind him and took two slashes at his throat and Lonnie may have, judging by by the condition of the body(?) been able to frustrate any 'Deviant or Sexual impulse' on behalf of the Killer" (Double??).
The following weeks paper has a headline 'Community Recoils From Brutal Murder'.
It recaps info from the previous article and and says that" Inspite of erroneus Radio Reports and Street Gossip no arrests had been made"
It says "hundreds" had come forward with info that might aid in the investigation(What I wouldnt give to get my hands on those reports) and the local VFW had posted a 500 dollar reward for info leading to the apprehension of the killer.
and after that ...nothing I couldnt even find a mention of the case in papers for the next six weeks.Very Strange.
Anyway I have alot of re-figuring to do.
Any thoughts form you guys are most welcome.
Kline,
TY for posting this. ITA about the amount--$5.00 was a whole lot of money for a kid to have in 1951.. How much of the money did Lonnie have on him when he was found ? I wonder if he was killed in part for the money ? Ore if someone saw him buying something with that money,and that was really how he came into the killer's orbit ? MOO
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  #57  
Old 11-10-2011, 05:41 PM
liz b. liz b. is offline
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So,after Lonnie's grandmother left him at the fair around 6:30pm, none of his other relatives at the fair saw him... then, according to the 2 high school boys he was at the side of the road arund 12:30 ?

The 2 teenage boys said something about Lonnie being "frightened" when they picked him up, but stated that he felt better after he rode with them ? Sounds strange MOO (my opinion only ).... Interesting that the 2 boys gave that info about Lonnie's supposed state of mind. Maybe Lonnie really was very frightened at 12:30 that night...wherever he actually was at that time ? MOO
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  #58  
Old 11-10-2011, 09:48 PM
kline kline is offline
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I dont know if he had any money on him or not.....its my understanding that he was nude when he was found but like everything else perhaps Ill discover different.
Im sure he was scared....he was only 12,of course 12 was in some ways older then but to find himself that late at night with no way home...
Even at 19 I cant picture myself abandoning a 12 year old at night in the dark at Greer....
I mean crap im fifty one and id be spooked to be dropped off like that, having to somehow get all the way up the Greer grade in the dark clear to Weippe on foot...
So much of this new stuff is just flat out strange.
Im sure this Henry Savage the FBI guy turned lawyer(actually I think alot of agents back in the day were Lawyers)is long since deceased but it would be interesting to see what his decendents might have to say about the investigation.
If he has any that is.
Im wondering if any of those tip sheets that came in from the public still exist?
Weippe is a very small very isolated community even today...they must have had fun trying to get any information back in those days.
Im also intrigued by the blindfold....why on earth was he blindfolded?
I mean I realize one could read a thousand things into that....many of them contradictory about the killer and who or what he was.
Im going to have to re-think alot of my pre-concieved notions obviously.
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  #59  
Old 11-10-2011, 10:03 PM
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STANDREID STANDREID is offline
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Since he had money, I wonder why he didn't just phone a relative and tell them that he was stranded. Or, maybe he contacted a policeman and the cop was the perp.
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  #60  
Old 11-10-2011, 10:53 PM
liz b. liz b. is offline
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I dont know if he had any money on him or not.....its my understanding that he was nude when he was found but like everything else perhaps Ill discover different.
Im sure he was scared....he was only 12,of course 12 was in some ways older then but to find himself that late at night with no way home...
Even at 19 I cant picture myself abandoning a 12 year old at night in the dark at Greer....
I mean crap im fifty one and id be spooked to be dropped off like that, having to somehow get all the way up the Greer grade in the dark clear to Weippe on foot...
So much of this new stuff is just flat out strange.
Im sure this Henry Savage the FBI guy turned lawyer(actually I think alot of agents back in the day were Lawyers)is long since deceased but it would be interesting to see what his decendents might have to say about the investigation.
If he has any that is.
Im wondering if any of those tip sheets that came in from the public still exist?
Weippe is a very small very isolated community even today...they must have had fun trying to get any information back in those days.
Im also intrigued by the blindfold....why on earth was he blindfolded?
I mean I realize one could read a thousand things into that....many of them contradictory about the killer and who or what he was.
Im going to have to re-think alot of my pre-concieved notions obviously.
So, no one ever found any of Lonnie's clothing ? TIA...
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  #61  
Old 11-10-2011, 10:54 PM
liz b. liz b. is offline
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Originally Posted by STANDREID View Post
Since he had money, I wonder why he didn't just phone a relative and tell them that he was stranded. Or, maybe he contacted a policeman and the cop was the perp.
I wonder if the person,or persons who killed Lonnie took his money ? MOO
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  #62  
Old 11-11-2011, 12:09 PM
kline kline is offline
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Originally Posted by STANDREID View Post
Since he had money, I wonder why he didn't just phone a relative and tell them that he was stranded. Or, maybe he contacted a policeman and the cop was the perp.
Well I wouldnt want to jump to conclusions but the description of how his wrists were bent up behind his back and the fact that his killer made a point of removing whatever was binding them certainly makes one wonder.
Though you dont have to be a policeman to have handcuffs....Ive probably got about four pair hanging around in various drawers from my days as a Correctional Officer.
I cant imagine ever needing them for anything but there kind of expensive so Ive just never thrown them away.Seems like im always running across a pair when Im digging looking for something else.
In 1951 its a good chance none of his relatives up in Weippe even had a phone.
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  #63  
Old 11-11-2011, 01:51 PM
scriptgirl scriptgirl is offline
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Lonnie was found totally nude?
Also, since he was blindfolded-there could have been more than 1 killer?
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  #64  
Old 11-13-2011, 03:49 AM
kline kline is offline
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Lonnie was found totally nude?
Also, since he was blindfolded-there could have been more than 1 killer?
Its my understanding he was.
The blindfold business is somewhat intriguiging....Lonnie obviously saw whoever picked him up and Im sure he was aware what was happening to him.
Who's benefit was the blindfold for? Him or his killer?
Going on just a gut instinct Id say there was probably one killer.
Obviously this was crime of chance and impulse,I mean it was a totaly random series of events that put Lonnie there in Greer at that time of night by himself,its certainly not something that could have been anticipated by someone who had a premediditated plan to abduct him.
I think someone was returning from the fair or the bars (Saturday night downtown during the Fair was and is a riotus time,lots of stuff that has been simering all summer hookups,breakups fights ect. seem to come to a head during Fair weekend.)
Maybe someone with a skin full of alchohol and a headfull of bad stuff happened upon him and maybe he'd just been dumped by a wife or girlfriend or a crush ,stood up or beat up in a bar brawl and heres little Lonnie standing by the road....
Maybe someone whos wig is a little loose to begin with and maybe this weekend something caused it to blow all the way off and heres someone he can empower himself with and work out a few kinks he's always had and be completely in control of.
Of course you could speculate forever on this kind of thing and never know if its anywhere near what happend.
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  #65  
Old 11-13-2011, 04:36 PM
scriptgirl scriptgirl is offline
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I don't think this was random. This person did this before.
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  #66  
Old 11-13-2011, 06:20 PM
smile22 smile22 is offline
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i think it was the teens he was needing a ride home and they somehow looked shady to him but they offered and as they were riding to where they were going to dump him he started to ease up thinking ok. but what was he doing that late at the fair grounds?

also if the teens were truly good people why didnt they drive him all the way home or was that to out of the way or they could have just dropped him off at the police station. something tells me the teens were up to no good
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  #67  
Old 11-14-2011, 06:00 AM
kline kline is offline
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I don't think this was random. This person did this before.
Yeah definitely,by random I didnt mean that I thought his killer hadnt killed before just that he happened upon Lonnie when and where he did.
Just a feeling once again but even if the killer hadnt killed a person before I would be willing to bet he'd done it before to farm animals.
The binding assaulting and slashing of the throat...it seems pretty organized for a first run.
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  #68  
Old 11-14-2011, 06:09 AM
kline kline is offline
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i think it was the teens he was needing a ride home and they somehow looked shady to him but they offered and as they were riding to where they were going to dump him he started to ease up thinking ok. but what was he doing that late at the fair grounds?

also if the teens were truly good people why didnt they drive him all the way home or was that to out of the way or they could have just dropped him off at the police station. something tells me the teens were up to no good
Taking Lonnie all the way home would have meant an hour long drive up the Greer grade and accross the prairie ,and another hour and more back down and home to Kamiah.
They may not have had the time if they were up against a time limit to be home themselves.
I really think Lonnie was hoping to catch a ride with someone else returning back up the hill to Weippe from Orofino(sadly he probably did.)
I would like to find out if Lonnie had ever hitched from Orofino to Weippe before?
Being 12 years old you wouldnt think so but who knows?
But the Carnival should have closed by 10:00pm or 11:00pm and even if he went to the movie it would have ended by 10:00pm so where was he up until 12:30pm when the Kamiah teens encountered him at the bridge?
So many questions.
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  #69  
Old 11-14-2011, 01:05 PM
scriptgirl scriptgirl is offline
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Any luck on getting those police files?
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Old 11-14-2011, 01:46 PM
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momtolil momtolil is offline
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This may have already been discussed. I'm just getting re - caught up on this case after not looking at it for awhile..... But, did they take crime scene photos of any kind? I know they may not have been suitable for public viewing, but it seems like most police departments would do that, even in those days. I'm just wondering because of all the confusion over the state of the body.
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  #71  
Old 11-15-2011, 02:53 AM
kline kline is offline
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This may have already been discussed. I'm just getting re - caught up on this case after not looking at it for awhile..... But, did they take crime scene photos of any kind? I know they may not have been suitable for public viewing, but it seems like most police departments would do that, even in those days. I'm just wondering because of all the confusion over the state of the body.
I would have to assume so and I would imagine if they still exist they are with whatever remains of the files.
Three years after Lonnie's murder in 1954 my two teenage aunts and another teen age boy were killed in a car crash along the same stretch of road three miles from where Lonnies body was found.
Several photos of the demolished car in the weeds and rocks by the river that look like police photos were printed in the same newspaper I found the coverage of Lonnie's case in.
I dont really relish seeing these particular crime scene photos but it would clarify several key points I would like to clarify.
The files are something of a conundrum,I know several police officers and have been given different opinions about the existance of and the possibilty of my gaining access to the file.
Im going to have to be careful how I proceed and how and who I approach.
Also since ive discovered that local law enforcement was in fact NOT in charge of the investigation but this retired FBI /attourney from Washington State there are probably alot of documentation concerning the case that may have been in his possesion that local LE doesnt have.
It may be complicated.But nothing to do but try.
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  #72  
Old 11-15-2011, 09:28 AM
liz b. liz b. is offline
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The time line is interesting... is it possible that the 2 teenagers who stated that they picked up Lonnie at 12 :30 are not telling the truth ? MOO
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  #73  
Old 11-15-2011, 02:09 PM
scriptgirl scriptgirl is offline
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WHY was the FBI called in? Was there a rash of assaults on young boys they were investigating?
Also, if the FBI investigated, isn't there the freedom of information act you could apply to this?
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  #74  
Old 11-16-2011, 05:12 AM
kline kline is offline
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WHY was the FBI called in? Was there a rash of assaults on young boys they were investigating?
Also, if the FBI investigated, isn't there the freedom of information act you could apply to this?
Thats the weird part...he wasnt an active FBI agent.He was retired FBI currently working as an attourney...from another state yet.Why in the world was he in charge of the case instead of local LE?
It doesnt make much sense at least to me.
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  #75  
Old 11-16-2011, 05:13 AM
kline kline is offline
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The time line is interesting... is it possible that the 2 teenagers who stated that they picked up Lonnie at 12 :30 are not telling the truth ? MOO
Very possibly.
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