Flies and Maggots in the trunk - forensic entomology #1

[Indigo]

Originally Posted by AZlawyer

The prosecutors should use that in closing argument!!!

Thanks, AZ. I give express permission to anyone who wants to use my "Animals Down on the Body Farm" story!

[BondJamesBond]

Originally Posted by magic-cat

I noticed in the FBI interview that Cindy kept referencing the bag full of pizza and maggots...

There WAS NO PIZZA in that bag. Why does she keep saying that? If the bag was full of maggots then there is a hope that by the time LE got there to get the bag that same night or very early the next day that some of them were still IN the bag...If they were, then it very well could be an open and shut case if maggots have Caylee's dna inside them.

Can someone supply the SPECIFIC link for the video in which Cindy makes reference to the bag with pizza? Extra lovin' for anyone that can direct me to the timestamp where this begins. TIA!

[Indigo]

Originally Posted by BondJamesBond

Can someone supply the SPECIFIC link for the video in which Cindy makes reference to the bag with pizza? Extra lovin' for anyone that can direct me to the timestamp where this begins. TIA!

From Cindy's police interview:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgwCS94Bh4E
4:47- 5:02

[Fla_Red]

Correct me if I am wrong - I thought maggots only existed in decaying flesh or tissue (animal or otherwise) but NOT pizza

[MyTinkieGirl]

Originally Posted by impatientredhead

Putriscene and cadavarene would have definitely been present but they would not be included in the testing because they are not specific to human decomposition. They are produced by all animal tissue during decomp, and can actually be found in live humans as well (smaller amounts, generally in an infection area).

Putriscene and cadavarene are believed to be largely what we smell in decomp, but it is not what the dogs hit on. The body releases 300 plus chemicals when decomposing, they hit on some combination of those.

BUT, they ARE two compounds used in the training of cadaver dogs...as well as "Pseudo" decomp scents....there's 2 diff ones...one for "early" decomp stages, one for compounds from "later" stages. Often human samples are hard to come by.

[MyTinkieGirl]

AND, impatientredhead, I agree TOTALLY with what you are saying...I mentioned similar earlier...just not with human decomp....LOL

My earlier post as an answer to someone elses post :
****************************************

True...DMTS and DMDS are really not so bad smelling, actually....most of those chemicals aren't particularly gross to me....but, I'm a Flavor Chemist, and have dealt with them (and far more worse smells than those) on a regular basis to develop flavors for food. You'd be surprised what some of the "things" that are blended together (to make a finished flavor) smell like individually....LOL

These naturally occuring chemicals in the foods as you mentioned are waaaay beyond miniscule, and contribute little to the actual "flavor" or "smell" of those foods. Coffee has over 500 individual naturally occuring chemical components, BUT, only 10 - 20 blended in the proper combinations gives you the "actual" flavor/smell.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, it's not the actual "component" per se, but the COMBINATION of the components as a "whole" which would identify a particular odor/flavor.

[TURBOTHINK]

Originally Posted by MyTinkieGirl

BUT, they ARE two compounds used in the training of cadaver dogs...as well as "Pseudo" decomp scents....there's 2 diff ones...one for "early" decomp stages, one for compounds from "later" stages. Often human samples are hard to come by.

I don't know of anyone who uses "pseudo" decomp who trains cadaver dogs in this country. In some countries where it is not legal to have specimens from human cadavers, it is used, but not here, I don't think.

[TURBOTHINK]

Originally Posted by MyTinkieGirl

Exactly !!! IIRC, maggots would be found from RAW meats as opposed to cooked food, right ??

The type of maggots they found were blow fly maggots. They attack nothing but decomposing bodies. There are different types of flies and blow flies will be on a body within minutes if outside where they can find it.

[MyTinkieGirl]

Originally Posted by TURBOTHINK

I don't know of anyone who uses "pseudo" decomp who trains cadaver dogs in this country. In some countries where it is not legal to have specimens from human cadavers, it is used, but not here, I don't think.

Just getting my information from what I read in a Training Cadaver Dogs Manual....I ALSO mentioned, sometimes human parts not available.

AND there IS such a thing as "Pseudo Corpse"...Formulations I & II.....interesting read...go to Chapter 4.....


http://www.scribd.com/doc/4623888/Ca...aining-Tactics

[TURBOTHINK]

Originally Posted by kgeaux

Nancy announce Dr. Lee was working for the defense as she introduced him! She said he had examined the car for the defense.



That article contains an error, I think. It talks of the hair found on the shovel matching Caylee's, but I thought NO HAIR was found on the shovel?



I think it was an error, LOL! June 5 as opposed to June 25. Even if Lee says that Caylee began complain on the 5th, we can't really take his unsubstantiated word for it. The 25th has text messages to confirm that date.....so unless earlier text messages dated from the 5th show up, I'm going to believe someone just screwed up!

They did find a hair on the shovel, but I was under the impression it was not identified.

[JWG]

From the document dump today:

The documents also show there was no rotting pizza in the trunk of Casey’s car. Cindy has long claimed a horrible smell that detectives have described as the smell of death, was due to a rotting pizza.

http://www.wftv.com/news/18152501/detail.html#-

[TURBOTHINK]

Originally Posted by MyTinkieGirl

Just getting my information from what I read in a Training Cadaver Dogs Manual....I ALSO mentioned, sometimes human parts not available.

AND there IS such a thing as "Pseudo Corpse"...Formulations I & II.....interesting read...go to Chapter 4.....


http://www.scribd.com/doc/4623888/Ca...aining-Tactics

I will read it later today. I am sure that is interesting, but like I said, I have never known anyone to train their dogs with it. I am not saying it is not done, but that it would be foolish if you were going to have to testify in court if that were the only training they had. It would be worthless. I believe the value of that would be in calibrating the air instruments used to measure human decomposition.

[MyTinkieGirl]

http://www.sigmaaldrich.com/catalog/...ltsPage/Expand

I purchase FEMA GRAS chemicals from Sigma/Aldrich

[MyTinkieGirl]

Originally Posted by TURBOTHINK

I will read it later today. I am sure that is interesting, but like I said, I have never known anyone to train their dogs with it. I am not saying it is not done, but that it would be foolish if you were going to have to testify in court if that were the only training they had. It would be worthless. I believe the value of that would be in calibrating the air instruments used to measure human decomposition.

Nope...read Chapter 4...goes thru methods used to train cadaver dogs. BUT, I'm in no way saying human body parts/blood aren't used, as well. Why "calibrate" GC/MS with a "pseudo" if dogs aren't even using it to train ?? Would be totally worthless for ID of decomp if not what dogs hit on.....the individual chemicals utilized in the pseudo scent would EXACTLY match the chemical components of human decomposition (which is where GC/MS would come into play for analysis of "actual" human decomposition chemicals in "matching" the pseudo scent). AND, I'm sure "real" human remains are also part of their training.

Thats all I'm tryin to say....

[TURBOTHINK]

Originally Posted by MyTinkieGirl

Nope...read Chapter 4...goes thru methods usd to train cadaver dogs. BUT, I'm in no way saying human body parts/blood aren't used, as well. Why "calibrate" GC/MS with a "pseudo" if dogs aren't even using it to train ?? Would be totally worthless for ID of decomp if not what dogs hit on.....the individual chemicals utilized in the pseudo scent would EXACTLY match the chemical components of human decomposition (which is where GC/MS would come into play in "matching" the scent). AND, I'm sure "real" human remains are also part of their training.

I am training one now. I have worked with a lot of trainers over the years because I have always had SAR dogs and I have never met anyone who used those scents. I will read that and see who is using them.

I really don't see any purpose in training with them with all the bodies which are donated to science labs now. Any teaching university would have cadaver parts for training. It only takes minute pieces to train effectively. We train with specifics in addition to cadaver scent. We use blood, bone, hair, etc.
Casper just finished with encasement in concrete, buried under 5" of concrete and passed.

[MyTinkieGirl]

Originally Posted by TURBOTHINK

I am training one now. I have worked with a lot of trainers over the years because I have always had SAR dogs and I have never met anyone who used those scents. I will read that and see who is using them.

I really don't see any purpose in training with them with all the bodies which are donated to science labs now. Any teaching university would have cadaver parts for training. It only takes minute pieces to train effectively. We train with specifics in addition to cadaver scent. We use blood, bone, hair, etc.
Casper just finished with encasement in concrete, buried under 5" of concrete and passed.

Good schnazola on that dog !!! LOL Congrats !!! Is that Casper/Cujo in the pic (the one with the red eyes)?? LOL

[MyTinkieGirl]

Originally Posted by TURBOTHINK

I am training one now. I have worked with a lot of trainers over the years because I have always had SAR dogs and I have never met anyone who used those scents. I will read that and see who is using them.

I really don't see any purpose in training with them with all the bodies which are donated to science labs now. Any teaching university would have cadaver parts for training. It only takes minute pieces to train effectively. We train with specifics in addition to cadaver scent. We use blood, bone, hair, etc.
Casper just finished with encasement in concrete, buried under 5" of concrete and passed.

That's really interesting !! Which state's do you train dogs for ?? Maybe the training manual I was referencing is just for smaller LE forces.....they also went into the handlers testifying at trials, and info they need to keep records on in order to give reliable testimony. Some good stuff you do. Oh, well.....we never know it all.....when you stop learning, you stop living, right???

[RR0004]

Originally Posted by TURBOTHINK

The type of maggots they found were blow fly maggots. They attack nothing but decomposing bodies. There are different types of flies and blow flies will be on a body within minutes if outside where they can find it.

Ok...so we finally find out that there was only a box for the pizza, but no pizza. All those experiments for naught. But, now I wonder, where the heck did Cindy came up with this story? She repeated it so many times that obviously it was rehearsed. Surely she knew there wasn't any pizza in the box, right? If that's the case, then that whole convo about the smell with George, "It was the pizza, right George?" is a bunch of baloney. Honestly, I don't think I can trust any of the conversation the As had with LE now. But, who the heck gave them THAT story to put out? We knew the maggots could be a missing piece to the puzzle. Now that I know they were there and the pizza was not, I can state unequivocally that there was a dead body in the trunk (there's always that nagging thought!). So why WAS this trunk so clean?

[Indigo]

Originally Posted by RR0004

Ok...so we finally find out that there was only a box for the pizza, but no pizza. All those experiments for naught. But, now I wonder, where the heck did Cindy came up with this story? She repeated it so many times that obviously it was rehearsed. Surely she knew there wasn't any pizza in the box, right? If that's the case, then that whole convo about the smell with George, "It was the pizza, right George?" is a bunch of baloney. Honestly, I don't think I can trust any of the conversation the As had with LE now. But, who the heck gave them THAT story to put out? We knew the maggots could be a missing piece to the puzzle. Now that I know they were there and the pizza was not, I can state unequivocally that there was a dead body in the trunk (there's always that nagging thought!). So why WAS this trunk so clean?

If there were maggots inside that bag (I think even SB said there were) and there was nothing inside the bag to attract them, then maybe Casey planted them there. The bag of fake garbage seems so contrived...even containing a receipt that belonged to N. IMO, it's possible she was trying to frame N.

[kgeaux]

Originally Posted by TURBOTHINK

I am training one now. I have worked with a lot of trainers over the years because I have always had SAR dogs and I have never met anyone who used those scents. I will read that and see who is using them.

I really don't see any purpose in training with them with all the bodies which are donated to science labs now. Any teaching university would have cadaver parts for training. It only takes minute pieces to train effectively. We train with specifics in addition to cadaver scent. We use blood, bone, hair, etc.
Casper just finished with encasement in concrete, buried under 5" of concrete and passed.

Some of the techno talk about training the dogs is making my mind spin, but this stopped it dead in its tracks! What a NOSE on Casper!! Congrats, it sounds as if you are going to provide LE with a very valuable tool, Turbo. Congrats!

[LiveLaughLuv]

I'm wondering if the FBI/CSI found some of those maggots in that trunk if they can test them for DNA purposes?

If they can do that it would show the DNA of Caylee..wonder if that was done???

[Recovering-Lurker]

Originally Posted by LiveLaughLuv

I'm wondering if the FBI/CSI found some of those maggots in that trunk if they can test them for DNA purposes?

If they can do that it would show the DNA of Caylee..wonder if that was done???

I know several of us have speculated that is the case. We are hoping a maggot milkshake was done and that Caylee's DNA was found, as sad as that is.

[RR0004]

Originally Posted by Indigo

If there were maggots inside that bag (I think even SB said there were) and there was nothing inside the bag to attract them, then maybe Casey planted them there. The bag of fake garbage seems so contrived...even containing a receipt that belonged to N. IMO, it's possible she was trying to frame N.

Reading further into the docs there were meat items...or am I mistaken? One minute I have those "AHA!" moments-proof psoitive...then I see mention of other food being in the trunk that could attract maggots. I just want it to be crystal clear to a jury. I wish there was more written about the maggots.

[MyTinkieGirl]

Originally Posted by RR0004

Reading further into the docs there were meat items...or am I mistaken? One minute I have those "AHA!" moments-proof psoitive...then I see mention of other food being in the trunk that could attract maggots. I just want it to be crystal clear to a jury. I wish there was more written about the maggots.

IIRC....The bag WAS from AL's apartment....there WAS the reciept from Fusian in his room mates name.....AL said bag was from his place, couldn't figure out why in trunk. I didn't remember reading about any "meat" in the bag.....there was "other" garbage (BUT, I could be wrong). They had the bag contents picture in the docs. I KNOW Dr. Lee said something to that effect on NG. OK...that said....maybe Casey got decomposition fluids on her gray slacks....temporarily threw them into garbage bag....into the trunk.....some decomp got onto inside of bag.....and then she DID do some laundry at Ricardo's place (from his interview in orig docs)....Cindy didn't say anything about the pants being "physically" dirty...just smelly. JMHO

[RR0004]

Originally Posted by MyTinkieGirl

IIRC....The bag WAS from AL's apartment....there WAS the reciept from Fusian in his room mates name.....AL said bag was from his place, couldn't figure out why in trunk. I didn't remember reading about any "meat" in the bag.....there was "other" garbage (BUT, I could be wrong). They had the bag contents picture in the docs. I KNOW Dr. Lee said something to that effect on NG. OK...that said....maybe Casey got decomposition fluids on her gray slacks....temporarily threw them into garbage bag....into the trunk.....some decomp got onto inside of bag.....and then she DID do some laundry at Ricardo's place (from his interview in orig docs)....Cindy didn't say anything about the pants being "physically" dirty...just smelly. JMHO

Well, I just went back into the dump for another question I had and I found
this:

http://www.wesh.com/download/2008/1126/18155477.pdf

Page #14

ETA: so there was unwrapped pizza?