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Madeleine McCann Missing from the Algarve region of Portugal since May 3, 2007. Madeleine's parents, Kate and Gerry McCann, have said that they left the children unsupervised in a ground floor bedroom while they ate at a restaurant about 120 metres (130 yards) away.


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Old 05-12-2009, 06:42 PM
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Originally Posted by anne11 View Post
I've just read an article on BBC-i warning parents about leaving their children alone during the summer holidays, the risk is a large fine or jail time. But with that being the word from "on high" I despair, remember baby P
It sounds like one of those laws vague enough to enforce when authorities want to make a point, but broad enough in wording that they can ignore as well when they don't want to be bothered making a case.
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Old 05-12-2009, 07:47 PM
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It sounds like one of those laws vague enough to enforce when authorities want to make a point, but broad enough in wording that they can ignore as well when they don't want to be bothered making a case.
Mitchell has said if they show Amarals documentary here he will sue whatever channel its on but...to be honest i seriously wonder about that. Because if he sued the channel all they have to do is take Amaral to the court hearing..and..well..Bobs your uncle so to speak. Im sure Amaral would be up for it ; )
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Old 04-03-2012, 04:09 PM
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If the McCanns were convicted of child neglect/abuse or involuntarily manslaughter, what happens to their medical license? In the US, the doctor could potentially lose their medical license. At they very least, the doctor would be limited to the places s/he can practice. And if a doctor loses his or her license, what other career options are available? Especially career options that allow one to pay off high students loans, etc.
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Old 04-05-2012, 02:00 AM
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If someone wants to abduct your child, they are going to do it whether or not you are in the same home. I can think of many cases where a child has been taken from a home where adults are sleeping or awake in the next room. As for the McCann's being negligent or compared to parents who leave their children over night to party, I think that is unfair. The issue with this case is so many people have limited cultural understanding regarding parenting practices in other countries. I am sure, the McCann's suffering and horror over all of this is enough to make them question routine practices of dropping in to check on children. They live with it every day. Checking in on children while dining nearby is a norm in a lot of places where "stranger-danger" hasn't taken over society. Plus, American jurisprudence dictates how we parent in many ways. In reality, if someone wanted Madeline, they would have taken her whether or not her parents were 30 feet away or 3000. Why are we victim blaming the parents here? Does it help solve this crime? Does it make us feel superior? There is no need. Let's focus that on finding some type of resolution for a family who has not only been railroaded by sensational media, but by the language barriers and bizarre legal practices in the country she was abducted in. We simply can't compare across the board the US legal system with how strange the other is, nor parenting practices. This is an awful case and I really think the many misunderstandings caused by culture, language and countries have made this even worse for the parents. I think they are suffering enough and are educated enough to be well aware of the possible outcomes of their daughter's fate without being crucified by the public.

BTW: As a parent, I personally am obsessive about my children, but I grew up in stranger-danger America. I also have been known to stop the car to check if a sleeping child is breathing...LOL. My oldest daughter got to the point on long trips where she would roll her eyes and say, yes...he's alive...LOL. But, I have traveled many places and know and I have to say what works in our country is not the solution for all. America is not a perfect country, so acting ethnocentric about how this is an abomination is short-sighted. IMOO.


Here is a recent article:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...sappeared.html

Opinions on the above article?
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Old 04-05-2012, 02:07 AM
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It's not just stranger danger imo, no matter where you live and what the cultural attitudes are, it's just not safe to leave children that young alone. They could wake up, go out in search of the parents and drown in the pool or something. There could be a fire. They could get up and go out and get hit by a car. They could get sick and nobody is there to comfort and take care of them. There are accidents that can happen to unsupervised children even if no strangers are in sight within a ten mile circle.
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Old 04-05-2012, 02:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Donjeta View Post
It's not just stranger danger imo, no matter where you live and what the cultural attitudes are, it's just not safe to leave children that young alone. They could wake up, go out in search of the parents and drown in the pool or something. There could be a fire. They could get up and go out and get hit by a car. They could get sick and nobody is there to comfort and take care of them. There are accidents that can happen to unsupervised children even if no strangers are in sight within a ten mile circle.
That is true. The thing is there are many historical and mythological reasons why we as Americans tend to be neurotic about safety and what-if's compared with the rest of the world. A lot of that has to do with our view about death and accidents. Many of that has come from jurisprudence. It is media and consumerism playing on our worst fears. Chronic worrying takes it's toll on children and families in America. I just think, since our country is so young, and the UK has been around quite some time as have their parenting techniques, it isn't ok for me to pass judgment on the McCann's. That's all.
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Old 04-05-2012, 02:32 AM
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FWIW, I dont live in America and most of the people here don't think that leaving small children alone is a parenting technique, they think it's negligence and you can actually get charged for it. Just last night my daughter vomited all over the bedroom and her sibling. They were both crying and miserable enough as it was, let alone if they had been all by herself without an adult to comfort and take care of them.

JMO I don't think it is just American neuroticism. Children need to be taken care of all over the world.
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Old 04-05-2012, 03:34 AM
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FWIW, I dont live in America and most of the people here don't think that leaving small children alone is a parenting technique, they think it's negligence and you can actually get charged for it. Just last night my daughter vomited all over the bedroom and her sibling. They were both crying and miserable enough as it was, let alone if they had been all by herself without an adult to comfort and take care of them.

JMO I don't think it is just American neuroticism. Children need to be taken care of all over the world.
You are so right. Sorry about the vomit incident, I have been there too. Unfortunately, in some areas of the world, this is kind of parenting is common. right, wrong or indifferent. If there is a silver lining, it is the fact that certain practices may be rethought in certain countries. As with history, this type of incident serves as a catalyst for change. But, I also think American beliefs and cultures effect others. I am an ex-pat right now, so all I can say is, things in other countries are very different!
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Old 04-05-2012, 05:10 AM
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We went around and around with this debate when the McCann story first broke. I think by U.S. standards they (and their friends) would be charged with child negligence for leaving them in an unlocked apartment with stairs and unguarded windows.

Most of us here had never heard of the method of "checking" the hotel room just hourly, and while it may be an established practice in Portugal, it still seems rather haphazard. Some of the people who supposedly checked Madeleine's room didn't even go inside but apparently just stuck their head in the door and listened.

Of course accidents can happen whether parents are in the room or not, but often children can be saved from emergencies if someone is close enough to hear a cry for help or the sound of someone falling or the sound of choking. That's one reason why baby monitors were invented.

People may think Americans are just obsessed with safety, but unfortunately there are still thousands of accidents that kill children every year. I wish more parents were overprotective, actually, or at least more alert.
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Old 04-05-2012, 05:25 AM
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Any ideas on this article?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...sappeared.html
  #61  
Old 04-05-2012, 05:42 AM
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He sounds like someone I wouldn't like anywhere near where I holiday with my kids but I can't be convinced that him remembering Madeleine's distinctive right eye is proof that he did it.

Quote:
Missing: Paedophile Raymond Hewlett is alleged to have admitted seeing Madeleine McCann twice and reportedly remembers her distinctive right eye
Everybody who spent any time following the case and looking at her photos remembers
her distinctive right eye.
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz1r9oWoMYL
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  #62  
Old 04-05-2012, 08:30 AM
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This is what i dont get. Why take your children on holiday and put them in kids clubs all day and leave them on there own all night? I mean what is the definition of "family holiday" for the McCanns?

I just wish Madeleine had been left at home with a relative who would put Madeleines needs first instead of running off to the pub each night and leaving there children in danger
I am amazed at the amount of selfish parents these days. With 3 such young children, why not take a holiday to something like Walt disney World?
Sitting and drinking wine after dinner would not have been that important to me not with 3 young unattended kids back at the room. Just dont understand it.And yes, Madeline wouldve been better off being left with a Grandparents while parents Holidayed.
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Old 04-05-2012, 08:56 AM
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Baby Listening....my goodness.

It fascinates me how we have differing levels of comfort with something like this. After being on these boards for a number of years and reading some pretty sad cases, I'm surprised, really, that I send my kids off to school in the morning!
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Old 04-05-2012, 09:02 AM
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What the McCann's did (leaving their little ones unsupervised) was atypical and abnormal for the UK too.

There is no British parent I know of that would condone their negligence. One of the main criticisms in the media here at the time was that very factor. FWIW
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Old 04-06-2012, 02:37 AM
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I believe it is also a criminal offence to leave young children unsupervised in Portugal
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Old 04-06-2012, 12:52 PM
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Originally Posted by LucyOso View Post
He sounds like a crack pot to me. Especially since he wants to be paid for his information.

How could he see MM twice before her abduction? Wouldn't that make her parents involved? Or was the pedophile peeping tom group peering into the apartment in between the parent checks? While the McCanns have their faults, I do not believe they were pimping out their daughter to pervs.
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Old 04-06-2012, 01:24 PM
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He sounds like a crack pot to me. Especially since he wants to be paid for his information.

How could he see MM twice before her abduction? Wouldn't that make her parents involved? Or was the pedophile peeping tom group peering into the apartment in between the parent checks? While the McCanns have their faults, I do not believe they were pimping out their daughter to pervs.
Super creepy. But BBM...I think that means he noticed her/saw her twice while they were vacationing before she disappeared. He may have seen her in a restaurant or near the pool.

The fact that he has a long history of lying to LE about crimes makes me think he is just hoping for some cash to ease his way out of the world.
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Old 06-07-2012, 04:18 AM
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I think a lot of people leave their children in their rooms in the evening in these holiday resorts. The mark warner resorts usually offered a nanny listening service. This consisted of the parents leaving the children in their rooms, and every half hour a nanny (young person with a childcare qualification having a working holiday normally) would listen at the door. Thousands of people throughout europe used the system every year at MW resorts, and it is only after Madeleine disappeared the service was withdrawn. The MW resort where the McCanns stayed did not offer this service as the resort was around the village so too spread out, but you can see why the Mccanns thought checking on the children every half an hour was a good alternative.
I personally would not do this, but I realise thousands did, and I know lots of people who would think it was fine. I think in the Uk there has been a tendancy to accuse parents of wrapping up their children in cotton wool, and make out people worried about paedophiles are paranoid readers of red top newspapers. For all that british people are claiming British people never leave their children, the fact is tens of thousands used this nanny listening service, which provided less protection than the McCanns supervision did. maybe it is a case of people letting their guard down on holiday, or thinking "i am only a hundred metres away, what could happen?"
Also there is a cultural thing too, in some northern European countries (not the UK) it is still Ok to leave children outside shops in their prams for instance, or in cars whilst you pop into shops. I do not like this, but I have had friends laugh at me for this. My personal rule is that if you would not leave a fifty pound note in the same place as where you are leaving your children, then you should not leave the children there.
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Old 06-08-2012, 10:18 AM
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I think a lot of people leave their children in their rooms in the evening in these holiday resorts. The mark warner resorts usually offered a nanny listening service. This consisted of the parents leaving the children in their rooms, and every half hour a nanny (young person with a childcare qualification having a working holiday normally) would listen at the door. Thousands of people throughout europe used the system every year at MW resorts, and it is only after Madeleine disappeared the service was withdrawn. The MW resort where the McCanns stayed did not offer this service as the resort was around the village so too spread out, but you can see why the Mccanns thought checking on the children every half an hour was a good alternative.
I personally would not do this, but I realise thousands did, and I know lots of people who would think it was fine. I think in the Uk there has been a tendancy to accuse parents of wrapping up their children in cotton wool, and make out people worried about paedophiles are paranoid readers of red top newspapers. For all that british people are claiming British people never leave their children, the fact is tens of thousands used this nanny listening service, which provided less protection than the McCanns supervision did. maybe it is a case of people letting their guard down on holiday, or thinking "i am only a hundred metres away, what could happen?"
Also there is a cultural thing too, in some northern European countries (not the UK) it is still Ok to leave children outside shops in their prams for instance, or in cars whilst you pop into shops. I do not like this, but I have had friends laugh at me for this. My personal rule is that if you would not leave a fifty pound note in the same place as where you are leaving your children, then you should not leave the children there.
This is rubbish IMO, I have family all over Northern Europe and have not seen this happen anywhere for more than 20 years
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Old 06-08-2012, 10:43 AM
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No it is not rubbish, you go to Norway, Denmark, Finland, and Sweden for instance it is still common for people to leave babies in prams outside of shops even in cities. I have never heard of one being abducted. There is not the same culture of fear of stranger abductions of children. It is the same for women's safety, I would think nothing of walking alone at 3 in the morning in copenhagen or stockholm, but would never do that in London or Birmingham. You do get attacks, but very rarely, and there is just not that same culture of fear. For instance I know of a primary school that backs onto a woods, and during break time the children can run around the woods. I do not think this would happen in the UK or America.
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Old 06-08-2012, 10:51 AM
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/pressoffice/pre...leblower.shtml

if you scroll down to health and safety this article mentions some of the failings of the mar warner nanny listening service at their resort in Egypt. It describes how a little girl got out of her hotel room window too.
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Old 06-12-2012, 08:43 AM
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No it is not rubbish, you go to Norway, Denmark, Finland, and Sweden for instance it is still common for people to leave babies in prams outside of shops even in cities. I have never heard of one being abducted. There is not the same culture of fear of stranger abductions of children. It is the same for women's safety, I would think nothing of walking alone at 3 in the morning in copenhagen or stockholm, but would never do that in London or Birmingham. You do get attacks, but very rarely, and there is just not that same culture of fear. For instance I know of a primary school that backs onto a woods, and during break time the children can run around the woods. I do not think this would happen in the UK or America.
Well I am sorry but I disagree with you. I have visited relatives in Norway and Sweden and I have never seen occupied prams left outside of shops or preschool children left in cars
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Old 06-12-2012, 09:18 AM
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These days people in Finland do not leave their babies in prams outside shops. It used to happen in the seventies or so but not any more. Sometimes babies are left to nap outside in their prams but it tends to be in the private backyards of single family homes or balconies, not in public places. There was a respected public health advocate in the last century who said it was good for babies to get a lot of fresh air and it has stuck in Finland, many people think that the babies sleep better outside. I agree that there is not the same level of fear about children getting abducted and I think people are more afraid of having animals attack the sleeping baby in their prams. Older kids may have more degrees of freedom too. Still, everyone in Finland that I know was quite appalled that three kids were left alone so that their parents could wine and dine outside. It would get you in trouble with the social services if you did that in Finland.
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Old 06-12-2012, 11:57 AM
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Well I am sorry but I disagree with you. I have visited relatives in Norway and Sweden and I have never seen occupied prams left outside of shops or preschool children left in cars
I have visited many countries and have lived abroad as well. I must say, I sure did not notice certain mores, norms and cultural differences when I just visited the countries. But after a good 3 months living there, it is rather clear. It also depends on where your relatives are from prior to moving to a country or how influenced they are by another culture. Just because you didn't see it when you visited, does not mean it is not something that occurs all the time. In fact, given the intense changes being in another country, unless one was specifically looking for kids in cars and prams, it is very easy to not notice it initially when trying to navigate another country. People are different all over the world...I am not going to pass a value judgment based on my ideals.
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Old 06-12-2012, 12:25 PM
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I've lived in Scandinavia for a good chunk of my life and I've still to see a pram left in front of a shop. Children left briefly in cars, yes, sometimes, if it's not too cold or too hot, which is not often.

But I'm not sure what the customs in Scandinavia have to do with Madeleine McCann.
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