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Caylee Anthony 2 years old Not reported missing for a month after she was last seen.


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Old 10-15-2008, 10:43 AM
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The Charges, Statutes - What Must Be Proven

This thread is to discuss each of the three major charges, what they mean and what must be proven to the jury for a guilty conviction.

Murder 1

(1)(a) The unlawful killing of a human being:

1. When perpetrated from a premeditated design to effect the death of the person killed or any human being;
is murder in the first degree and constitutes a capital felony, punishable as provided in s. 775.082.

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/...0782/SEC04.HTM


Aggravated Manslaughter

(3) A person who causes the death of any person under the age of 18 by culpable negligence under s. 827.03(3) commits aggravated manslaughter of a child, a felony of the first degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.

http://www.flsenate.gov/Statutes/ind...3ESection%2007

Aggravated Child Abuse:

2) "Aggravated child abuse" occurs when a person:

(a) Commits aggravated battery on a child;

(b) Willfully tortures, maliciously punishes, or willfully and unlawfully cages a child; or

(c) Knowingly or willfully abuses a child and in so doing causes great bodily harm, permanent disability, or permanent disfigurement to the child.

A person who commits aggravated child abuse commits a felony of the first degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/...0827/SEC03.HTM
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Old 10-15-2008, 11:02 AM
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Manslaughter

7.7 MANSLAUGHTER [section] 782.07, Fla. Stat.

To prove the crime of Manslaughter, the State must prove the following two elements beyond a reasonable doubt:

1. (Victim) is dead.

Give 2a, 2b, or 2c depending upon allegations and proof.

2. a. (Defendant) intentionally knowingly or consciously committed an act that caused the death of (victim).

b. (Defendant) intentionally knowingly or consciously procured an act that resulted in the death of (victim).

c. The death of (victim) was caused by the culpable negligence of (defendant).

In order to convict of manslaughter by intentional act, it is not necessary for the State to prove that the defendant had a premeditated intent to cause death.

Culpable Negligence - culpable negligence is more than a failure to use ordinary care toward others. In order for negligence to be culpable, it must be gross and flagrant. Culpable negligence is a course of conduct showing careless disregard for the safety and welfare of another person or persons.
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Old 10-15-2008, 02:10 PM
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Question Legal process questions

From a legal stand point where does it go from here?
What happens?
How long will it all take?
When will all the evidence be made public?
Are the Grand Jury proceedings sealed for a certain period of time? Can they use them in a trial?
What happens if they find Caylees body in the meantime?
Someone else posted that LE may be planning to move forward with capital murder charges in hopes that Casey will come clean in order avoid a possible death penalty. Is it likely that this is the plan?
Do you think they will eventually drop the 4 counts of lying to LE in the interest of moving forward with the murder charges? Especially if they make a deal?

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Old 10-14-2009, 07:38 PM
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bumpity bump bump bump
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Old 10-14-2009, 07:56 PM
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LOL I thought this was new,saw the date 10-15, thinking,how'd that happen? Today is 10-14.Then I saw 08.Duh
So what happened to the rest of the thread ?
Great idea : )
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Old 10-14-2009, 07:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MissJames View Post
LOL I thought this was new,saw the date 10-15, thinking,how'd that happen? Today is 10-14.Then I saw 08.Duh
So what happened to the rest of the thread ?
Great idea : )
Yup! Me too! Now off to find some of the posts that have already done the research on LIO's and felony murder.

Yes, Virginia, there is not only a Santa Claus but KC may be convicted of felony murder, 2nd degree murder and various other Lesser Included Offenses or LIO's.
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Casey's attorney said it's not in her best interest to tell what she knows about where Caylee is. "It does her no good to show her cards to give the prosecution any advantage they have to put her away for life," Baez said.
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Old 10-14-2009, 08:03 PM
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Regarding a potential felony murder conviction:

Originally posted in the Premeditation thread,
here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lin View Post
Repeating see my post from the old thread, here.

I'm trying to catch up with the thread and have noticed a couple of misunderstandings of Florida law posted. Just in case correction hasn't been made yet:

KC was indicted for 1st degree murder. Under Florida law, 2nd degree murder is a Lesser Included Offense. (LIO). Therefore, 2nd degree murder and all other LIO's have been on the table since the day KC was indicted. Please see other posts in this thread here and here for more specific information on LIO's.

Although KC was not specifically charged with Felony Murder, she may be convicted of felony murder, even though it is not a specific LIO. This is per Knight v. State, 338 So.2d 201 (Fla. 1976) and cited in the Florida Standard Jury Instructions, here. Our own AZLawyer, Themis and others have reviewed Knight and agreed that the jury may be instructed on felony murder although it is not listed in the indictment in the Legal Procedures thread, see Themis' posts here and continuing discussion of this topic on page 27, here.

In case you're not familiar with Knight, cited in Florida Standard Jury Instructions:

"Under Knight v. State, 338 So.2d 201 (Fla. 1976), felony murder is included within a single indictment count of premeditated murder. Therefore, first degree felony murder should be given if requested by the state and if supported by the evidence, although it is not a lesser included offense."

So to answer your question, yes, KC may be convicted of felony murder with the aggravated child abuse as the underlying felony, even though she hasn't been specifically charged with it and yes, death is a possible penalty for a felony murder conviction.
(slightly edited from original post)
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Casey's attorney said it's not in her best interest to tell what she knows about where Caylee is. "It does her no good to show her cards to give the prosecution any advantage they have to put her away for life," Baez said.
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Last edited by lin; 10-14-2009 at 08:08 PM. Reason: copied WRONG post!
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Old 10-14-2009, 08:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lin
Regarding a potential felony murder conviction:
actually that is not regarding a felony murder charge that is regarding a premeditated murder charge.
thanks Lin.

Last edited by JBean; 10-14-2009 at 08:09 PM.
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Old 10-14-2009, 08:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JBean View Post
actually that is not regarding a felony murder charge that is regarding a premeditated murder charge.
thanks Lin.
Thanks! I was working on correcting -- noticed as soon as I submitted I grabbed the wrong post!
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Casey's attorney said it's not in her best interest to tell what she knows about where Caylee is. "It does her no good to show her cards to give the prosecution any advantage they have to put her away for life," Baez said.
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Old 10-14-2009, 08:10 PM
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I think the aggravated child abuse is covered with the duct tape =willfully tortures,maliciously punishes.
Bagging her up and keeping her in the trunk=unlawfully cages a child
leaving Caylee to rot in the woods = permanent disfigurement to a child
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Old 10-14-2009, 08:13 PM
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Legal authorities showing felony murder conviction although not specifically charged, originally posted
here
:

Quote:
Originally Posted by lin View Post
This opinion was rendered September 29, 2008; Deparvine v. State, No. SC06-155 (Fla. 2008)

"...

We also reject the related claim that the trial court erred in instructing the jury that it could find premeditated murder, felony murder, or both, when the indictment only charged first-degree murder and cited the first-degree murder statute, but did not specify any specific theory. However, we have never held that the State (or a grand jury), must designate in the indictment or information the specific theory charged, so long as the defendant is put on notice that he is charged with first-degree murder under the relevant statute. Indeed, we have held that even where the State expressly charges premeditation it may nevertheless proceed under an alternative felony murder theory. O'Callaghan v. State, 429 So. 2d 691, 695 (Fla. 1983); see also Knight v. State, 338 So. 2d 201, 204 (Fla. 1976).


..."

Here's another:

Hannon v. State, 2006.FL.0006799 (Fla. 2006)

"...

We have repeatedly held that there is no error in permitting the State to proceed on a theory of felony murder when the indictment charges the defendant with first-degree premeditated murder. See Anderson v. State, 841 So. 2d 390, 404 (Fla. 2003) (rejecting the defendant's argument that the trial court erred in permitting the State to proceed on the theory of felony murder when the indictment only charged first-degree murder); Kearse v. State, 662 So. 2d 677, 682 (Fla. 1995) ("The State need not charge felony murder in an indictment in order to prosecute a defendant under alternative theories of premeditated and felony murder when the indictment charges premeditated murder."); Knight v. State, 338 So. 2d 201, 204 (Fla. 1976) ("We find appellant's allegation that the court erred in allowing the State to prosecute the charges [sic] under a theory of felony murder when the indictment charged premeditated murder to be absolutely contrary to established precedent."). Therefore, we conclude that appellate counsel was not ineffective for failing to present this meritless issue on appeal. See Rutherford, 774 So. 2d at 643.
..."
So, unless someone can come up with a more recent opinion that overturns Knight, it appears to be the very, very well settled law of Florida.

(also slightly edited from original post)
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Casey's attorney said it's not in her best interest to tell what she knows about where Caylee is. "It does her no good to show her cards to give the prosecution any advantage they have to put her away for life," Baez said.
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Last edited by lin; 10-14-2009 at 08:22 PM. Reason: typo
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Old 10-14-2009, 08:16 PM
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Under Florida law, LIO's or Lesser Included Offenses do not have to be specifically charged in the indictment. In essence, KC also faces 2nd degree murder; manslaughter and all other LIO's of each named count on the indictment. The only charge that requires premeditation as an element is 1st degree murder. Per Knight, felony murder may also be instructed and also carries a maximum sentence of dp.

From Florida Standard Jury Instructions, page 113:

"7.1 INTRODUCTION TO HOMICIDE

Read in all murder and manslaughter cases. In this case (defendant) is accused of (crime charged). Give degrees as applicable. Murder in the First Degree includes the lesser crimes of Murder in the Second Degree, Murder in the Third Degree, and Manslaughter, all of which are unlawful."

From Florida Standard Jury Instructions, page 50:

"3.4 WHEN THERE ARE LESSER INCLUDED
CRIMES OR ATTEMPTS

Give before reading charges on lesser included crimes or attempts. In considering the evidence, you should consider the possibility that although the evidence may not convince you that the defendant committed the main crime[s] of which [he] [she] is accused, there may be evidence that [he] [she] committed other acts that would constitute a lesser included crime [or crimes]. Therefore, if you decide that the main accusation has not been proved beyond a reasonable doubt, you will next need to decide if the defendant is guilty of any lesser included crime. The lesser crimes indicated in the definition of (crime charged) are:

(List — see chart that follows instruction on the crime charged.)"
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Casey's attorney said it's not in her best interest to tell what she knows about where Caylee is. "It does her no good to show her cards to give the prosecution any advantage they have to put her away for life," Baez said.
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Last edited by lin; 10-14-2009 at 08:20 PM. Reason: added link
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Old 10-14-2009, 08:37 PM
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From page 116, Florida Standard Jury Instructions



** Note: The evidence presented must support the Lesser Included Offense. For example, Vehicular Homicide would only qualify as a LIO if the suspect had previously been charged with 1st or 2nd degree murder due to a fatality caused by a motor vehicle.
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Casey's attorney said it's not in her best interest to tell what she knows about where Caylee is. "It does her no good to show her cards to give the prosecution any advantage they have to put her away for life," Baez said.
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Old 10-14-2009, 08:52 PM
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Just to clarify it is important to note that first degree felony murder is not considered a lesser charge to premediated murder. I would then think that the state would have to ask for it specifically to be considered by the jury.
I wonder why the state did not charge her with it specifically. It just seems like an easier charge to prove.

ETA: also can someone post the actual charges that she faces now? Just the ones regarding caylee, not the check fraud and all that.
TIA.

Last edited by JBean; 10-14-2009 at 08:55 PM.
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Old 10-14-2009, 08:54 PM
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From page 350, Florida Standard Jury Instructions:


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Casey's attorney said it's not in her best interest to tell what she knows about where Caylee is. "It does her no good to show her cards to give the prosecution any advantage they have to put her away for life," Baez said.
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Old 10-14-2009, 08:55 PM
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So they have to at least prove KC applied the duct tape to Caylee before she died-In this event, that is homicide in the commission of a felony (aggravated child abuse, which I believe putting tape over a child would be, since they can easily suffocate)....And then the death penalty can still apply, and would have to go to the highest courts to overturn, since this has been upheld by the Eigth Amendment (see Tison v. Arizona)

Last edited by Just Jayla; 10-14-2009 at 08:58 PM. Reason: change wording to be clear
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Old 10-14-2009, 08:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JBean View Post
Just to clarify it is important to note that first degree felony murder is not considered a lesser charge to premediated murder. I would then think that the state would have to ask for it specifically to be considered by the jury.
I wonder why the state did not charge her with it specifically. It just seems like an easier charge to prove.
Per the holding in Knight and as shown in the Florida Standard Jury Instructions, the state may request the jury be instructed on felony murder even though it isn't specifically charged. The state didn't have to indict it specifically for it to be applicable, just like they didn't have to separately indict 2nd degree murder, non-aggravated child abuse, etc.

ETA: Deparvine v. State and Hannon v. State are cited above in post #11 and may help explain the legal concept better than can I. It has been taken to the Florida Supreme Court and upheld numerous times that the constitutional requirements are satisfied in that the defendant has been given notice they are charged with a felony and that they are charged with murder. It therefore follows, according to the reasoning of the various panels that have examined this issue, that it can't come as a surprise to have the jury instructed on felony murder.
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Casey's attorney said it's not in her best interest to tell what she knows about where Caylee is. "It does her no good to show her cards to give the prosecution any advantage they have to put her away for life," Baez said.
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Old 10-14-2009, 08:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lin View Post
Per the holding in Knight and as shown in the Florida Standard Jury Instructions, the state may request the jury be instructed on felony murder even though it isn't specifically charged. The state didn't have to indict it specifically for it to be applicable, just like they didn't have to separately indict 2nd degree murder, non-aggravated child abuse, etc.
LOL
But my question is, I wonder why they didn't charge her with felony murder as it seems it would be easier to prove than premediated murder.
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Old 10-14-2009, 09:00 PM
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Note also re: the Tison case, that the death penalty may be imposed in order to satisfy retribution and create deterence....Don't mean to offend, though I have said it here before, but Florida could use some deterence.

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Old 10-14-2009, 09:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JBean View Post
LOL
But my question is, I wonder why they didn't charge her with felony murder as it seems it would be easier to prove than premediated murder.
I think this would come down to them wanting to see her executed....Felony homicide does not always guarantee that the death penalty can be sought, see my link above to Wiki article. but a conviction on premeditated adds that factor of, well, premeditation, which is more offensive to a sentencing jury.

Also, I'm sure the attys here know more about the details that might be behind it.

ETA: But as I understand what Lin is posting, if they lose the argument on the first degree charges, they can fall back on felony murder per the case Lin cited. And possibly still get the DP.

Last edited by Just Jayla; 10-14-2009 at 09:13 PM.
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Old 10-14-2009, 09:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Just Jayla View Post
I think this would come down to them wanting to see her executed....Felony homicide does not always guarantee that the death penalty can be sought, see my link above to Wiki article. but a conviction on premeditated adds that factor of, well, premeditation, which is more offensive to a sentencing jury.

Also, I'm sure the attys here know more about the details that might be behind it.

ETA: But as I understand what Lin is posting, if they lose the argument on the first degree charges, they can fall back on felony murder per the case Lin cited. And possibly still get the DP.
But they weren't going for the DP initially.
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Old 10-14-2009, 09:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Just Jayla View Post
I think this would come down to them wanting to see her executed....Felony homicide does not always guarantee that the death penalty can be sought, see my link above to Wiki article. but a conviction on premeditated adds that factor of, well, premeditation, which is more offensive to a sentencing jury.

Also, I'm sure the attys here know more about the details that might be behind it.

ETA: But as I understand what Lin is posting, if they lose the argument on the first degree charges, they can fall back on felony murder per the case Lin cited. And possibly still get the DP.
Yes, thanks! You've got it but just to clarify so no one else misunderstands: They have to make the decision whether they want the jury instructed on felony murder when they're at the charge conference, discussing jury instructions. They can't wait until a jury fails to convict on one charge and then say, "Well how about this other one?"

By gaining an indictment on premeditated murder, the prosecution has in essence gained an indictment on all LIO's and also felony murder. There is no need to gain a separate indictment for any LIO or felony murder. However, had they indicted on felony murder instead of premeditated, they couldn't go the other way and ask for a conviction on premeditation instead of an underlying felony. That's why the charges are the way they are -- it's all inclusive this way.

Clearly the state believes they can prove premeditation but until this actually gets to trial and decisions are made on what evidence is admitted and which is deemed inadmissible for whatever reason, they can't be 100% sure what they'll be able to prove to the jury. They also can't 100% foresee what the defense may be able to do to explain away any evidence. Therefore, the indictment reading as it does not only says a lot about the evidence the state was able to present to the grand jury, (a murder 1 indictment without a body!!), but it is also the smart way to go, imo.
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Old 10-14-2009, 09:22 PM
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Quote:
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But they weren't going for the DP initially.
I wonder about that, did something change their minds that we do not know yet?
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Old 10-14-2009, 09:24 PM
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Something that makes them think that it was premeditated, but they are hedging their bets with the felony murder?
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Old 10-14-2009, 09:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lin View Post
Yes, thanks! You've got it but just to clarify so no one else misunderstands: They have to make the decision whether they want the jury instructed on felony murder when they're at the charge conference, discussing jury instructions. They can't wait until a jury fails to convict on one charge and then say, "Well how about this other one?"
By gaining an indictment on premeditated murder, the prosecution has in essence gained an indictment on all LIO's and also felony murder. There is no need to gain a separate indictment for any LIO or felony murder. However, had they indicted on felony murder instead of premeditated, they couldn't go the other way and ask for a conviction on premeditation instead of an underlying felony. That's why the charges are the way they are -- it's all inclusive this way.

Clearly the state believes they can prove premeditation but until this actually gets to trial and decisions are made on what evidence is admitted and which is deemed inadmissible for whatever reason, they can't be 100% sure what they'll be able to prove to the jury. They also can't 100% foresee what the defense may be able to do to explain away any evidence. Therefore, the indictment reading as it does not only says a lot about the evidence the state was able to present to the grand jury, (a murder 1 indictment without a body!!), but it is also the smart way to go, imo.


Hah! I actually wondered about how that went down! Oh my, I'd better screw on my thinking cap a little tighter
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