Theories On What Happened to Caylee Part #3

[eddeva]

i thought the stairs were removed from the pool specifically to stop caylee climbing in and drowning. if this is true then surely for caylee to have climbed into the pool then someone had to put the stairs in place for her to do so, and the moment someone does that is the moment it stops being an accident.

if i'm wrong about this stair removing prceedure and the reason behind it please feel free to correct me. after all - part of being here is to exchange information.

[kiki the parrot]

Originally Posted by MarleneM

Yeah, I know. As a Florida resident the talks of Caylee having drowned accidentally still strikes me as senseless, avoidable and negligent considering the signs that the A's could financially afford to purchase the equipment that might have prevented it.

IMO, playhouses, sandboxes, picnic tables, et al are less of a priority when one decides to own a swimming pool with children in the home.

N/k. Totally, ridiculously inexcusable. We can bestow and lavish all sorts of tokens of our affection upon a child--but if we fail to heed childproofing 101, to observe the most basic safety precautions and even the laws by practicing these standard, regulation barriers for any small child under any high-risk circumstance (but particularly in FL where these tragedies are well-known and there is much public awareness) to prevent a totally forseeable drowning, this would seem almost the definition of "gross and flagrant" failure to provide "ordinary care." JMO

[Forensic fan]

Originally Posted by Irish_Eyes

My close friends lost their seven year old daughter to a brutal battle with cancer...I remember after they got home from the hospital the day she passed sitting around the living room until midnight...and how they were in the days and weeks and months that followed...I know what that kind of grief looks like...I know everyone grieves differently, but I can tell you my friends didn't even think about going to night clubs, stealing friend's credit cards, etc., and even though they are not the type of people to complain (which would be completely understandable in their situation), they didn't have to say how much they missed their little girl...it was so obvious....it still is, 18 mos later...

I could see the stage kidnapping so Mom won't hate me, if it wasn't for her utter lack of emotion about the loss of her child...not one of her friends sensed anything was wrong are you kidding me????? The only way that is, is because for her, nothing was wrong...her world kept turning, and that sickens me, and I don't think any jury will buy any type of accident theory precisely because of her outlandish behavior following said "accident".

I am so sorry for your friends' loss, how horribly sad. I don't really believe that Caylee's death was an accident,as much as I wanted it to be. Or I thought maybe it was an accident but she was glad it happened so it didn't bother her? I just wondered what would transpire if she said that or if it is too late for her to say that.

[USARDOG]

ecs, I'm buying 99.9% Just the one detail, chloroform... I don't believe it was with a pillow, but with the chloroform... She intended it to look like an accidental drowning, chloroformed her, put her in the pool, drowned her... but something went wrong. I believe she had been planning to kill Caylee for some time... rather, day dreaming about killing Caylee, because as we all know... KC is not capable of making a real plan. The plan included ransom money from C&G but she got so busy sleeping with T, she forgot to do her work, and the whole thing fell apart so she just dumped her in the woods.

[BondJamesBond]

...the more I think 'bout it...the more I'm thinking George took the spare tire cover mat out to the backyard and cleaned it there where the dogs hit. He likely used the chloroform pesticide either on the mat and/or in the car due to the maggots. Plenty of time to do this before LE came to pick up the Pontiac.

I just don't see Casey showing the initiative...

[Hercule Poirot]

Originally Posted by eddeva

i thought the stairs were removed from the pool specifically to stop caylee climbing in and drowning. if this is true then surely for caylee to have climbed into the pool then someone had to put the stairs in place for her to do so, and the moment someone does that is the moment it stops being an accident.

if i'm wrong about this stair removing prceedure and the reason behind it please feel free to correct me. after all - part of being here is to exchange information.

If you are thinking along lines of pool accident, then perhaps ladder was left in place, just this once, or regularly. I don't think so because then KC could just report accident and blame G & C.

[jon_burrows]

Originally Posted by Devon

I've just been having some further thoughts about the events of June 16. After looking at the house floor-plan thread (huge thanks to Hercule/Steve etc. for this work) it's possible to get a clearer picture of access in/out of the house/garage/back yard.

I am assuming that the A's garage door can't be remotely operated from outside, and so they have to first enter by the side garage entrance door and then open the main garage door from inside before driving their car(s) in. So, on June 16, KC returned to the house after GA had left for work and most likely used her own key to gain entry to the house via the garage entrance door (the A's have stated that this is the normal/usual way they enter the house). She most probably also left her car on the driveway as she was not supposed to be there (told GA she was off to 'work') and so would be leaving again at some point.

I remember seeing Cindy open the garage door from a keypad located to the right of the garage door. It was in one of the earlier videos. It stuck out in my mind because I was surprised she punched in the security code with the video cameras rolling. I have the same type of keypad on my garage door. I can't imagine having the keypad without remote devices for the cars as well. Having said that, maybe Casey didn't have a remote device or the security code for the garage door opener.

[USARDOG]

ecs, I'm buying 99.9% Just the one detail, chloroform... I don't believe it was with a pillow, but with the chloroform... She intended it to look like an accidental drowning, chloroformed her, put her in the pool, drowned her... but something went wrong. I believe she had been planning to kill Caylee for some time... rather, day dreaming about killing Caylee, because as we all know... KC is not capable of making a real plan. The plan included ransom money from C&G but she got so busy sleeping with T, she forgot to do her work, and the whole thing fell apart so she just dumped her in the woods.

[BuzzieCat]

Originally Posted by Devon

...So, on June 16, KC returned to the house after GA had left for work and most likely used her own key to gain entry to the house via the garage entrance door (the A's have stated that this is the normal/usual way they enter the house). She most probably also left her car on the driveway as she was not supposed to be there (told GA she was off to 'work') and so would be leaving again at some point...

...according to CA/GA, the gate was not only unfastened, but was left open. I think this is because whoever used the gate on that occasion was a) carrying something using both hands/arms, and b) in a hurry to get that 'load' into the car and away.

So, if Caylee died inside the house, I would expect KC to have carried her straight out through either the main front door, main garage door or side garage entrance door and to the car– there would be no reason to exit through the side yard gate, thus leaving herself unable to refasten it. Conversely, if she died in the back yard, would it make sense for KC to then carry her in through the house and out to the car via any of the exits as above, when the shortest, quickest route was through the side gate? This leads me to believe that Caylee did indeed die in the back yard. I think just after deciding to flee, KC may have gone into the house to get a covering and bag to wrap the body with and to collect her things. She probably then went out the side garage door, put her things into the car (possibly also anything else that she needed to take away from the 'scene'), and then opened the trunk. I think she then returned to the house, locking the side garage door from the inside, and then went out to wrap Caylee's body in the back yard. She then carried her through the side gate, into the trunk and away as fast as possible – no time to close the gate, and impossible now to refasten it.

Finally, if June 16 was indeed the day that the gate was left open, it was also the day that the pool ladder was left in place. Why was this? I'll leave that for others to theorise on, but I'm sure by now it's clear what I think the answer is!

Would even Casey be so stupid as to carry the body to the trunk in full view of the neighborhood? It would make more sense to back the car into the garage, put the door down, and then bring the body to the trunk from the house or backyard.

[USARDOG]

Cloroform based pesticides? Not aware of any. Please enlighten me...

I am thinking the cloroform and the pool was the easy way for her to kill Caylee without a struggle. She then could take her time with the brilliant kidnap story.

She had been stating she was going to "come in to some money." I'm thinking she was hatching a kidnap story, and she would pocket the randsom, poor Caylee was already dead, and would never come back, randsom or not.

[eddeva]

Originally Posted by Hercule Poirot

If you are thinking along lines of pool accident, then perhaps ladder was left in place, just this once, or regularly. I don't think so because then KC could just report accident and blame G & C.

thank you, hercule. i don't believe this was an accident, that's just too convenient (for casey)

[Devon]

Originally Posted by USARDOG

ecs, I'm buying 99.9% Just the one detail, chloroform... I don't believe it was with a pillow, but with the chloroform... She intended it to look like an accidental drowning, chloroformed her, put her in the pool, drowned her... but something went wrong. I believe she had been planning to kill Caylee for some time... rather, day dreaming about killing Caylee, because as we all know... KC is not capable of making a real plan. The plan included ransom money from C&G but she got so busy sleeping with T, she forgot to do her work, and the whole thing fell apart so she just dumped her in the woods.

On the subject of chloroform, and in particular the higher than 'normal' level found in the trunk carpet sample, I have been 'googling' around to see what connections there are between chlorine (used to treat domestic water supplies and swimming pools) and chloroform, and found some interesting info:

Snipped from article, with some thoughts of my own (in blue):

Highly reactive chlorine is an industrial waste product that is profitably disposed of by use in water treatment, where it impacts people’s health and then passes on into the environment.......

......Further, chlorine combines with organic impurities in the water to make trihalomethanes (THMs), or chloramines. The more organic matter, the more THMs (a decomposing body is organic matter ), and, like excess oxysterols, they are carcinogens......


.....Back to THMs: Among the THMs that result from chlorine combining with organic compounds in water are carcinogenic chloroform and carbon tetrachloride. It is the combination of chlorine and organic materials already in the water that produces cancer-causing byproducts. The more organic matter in the water, the greater is the accumulation of THMs (so, the more organic matter (decomposition?), the more chloroform is produced? :rolleyes....

......Chlorine in swimming pools reacts with organic matter such as sweat, urine, blood, feces, mucus and skin cells to form more chloramines(e.g. chloroform)........

.......Taking a warm shower or lounging in a tub filled with hot chlorinated water, one inhales chloroform. Researchers recorded increases in chloroform concentration in bathers’ lungs of about 2.7 ppb after a 10-minute shower. Worse, warm water causes the skin to act like a sponge; and so one will absorb and inhale more chlorine in a 10-minute shower than by drinking eight glasses of the same water (I wonder if more chlorine is also absorbed by a wet, possibly lightly clothed and waterlogged body which is first lying in a warm outdoor pool and then transferred to a hot car trunk? ).....

Link for reference: http://www.wellbeingjournal.com/inde...d=97&Itemid=58

Edited to add - chlorine also bleaches hair - just thinking of the 'light brown' hair found with the remains - Caylee's natural hair colour didn't look particularly 'light' brown to me.

[static]

I agree with the cholorform first then the drowning, didn't they find a little swimsuit with Caylee's remains>? What I do not understand is where she made the chloroform and I believe it turns into a powder form afterwards. Maybe, hopefully they found some in the house, tool shed, whatever...or remnants on the duct tape. Then it would have "looked" accidental and no cries from Caylee from the pool, no struggle. But then why should she take any of the blame. Zanny did it. yeah that is it. Zanny did it. I just feel so sorry for that little girl and think she is in a much better place then the long terms effect of living with a mother like that. Bless that little child.

[USARDOG]

Yes, I was aware of the byproduct theory, but am under the impression that the levels were way to high for that scenario, and KC had done searches on her puter for Chloroform... Which indicates to me, she intended to use it for something... and I don't believe it was for cleaning. I'm thinking it was an easy, bloodless way to kill Caylee. Knock her out, put her in the pool to finish her off.

Too bad Caylee wasn't found months ago when tissue samples would have been possible.

If she was planning on a randsom, that would explain why she waited, instead of claiming accident or the nanny did it right away.

[Hercule Poirot]

Originally Posted by eddeva

thank you, hercule. i don't believe this was an accident, that's just too convenient (for casey)

yes and I think she was thinking evil thoughts about getting rid of the "burden" of Caylee, but not a full blown detailed plan to kill her as some think. I think a real accident would have been a "God send" to KC. She would have easily been able to explain and spin to someone elses fault, and even she herself was a heroine by trying to save her. I think KC killed her in a rage.

[Devon]

Originally Posted by jon_burrows

I remember seeing Cindy open the garage door from a keypad located to the right of the garage door. It was in one of the earlier videos. It stuck out in my mind because I was surprised she punched in the security code with the video cameras rolling. I have the same type of keypad on my garage door. I can't imagine having the keypad without remote devices for the cars as well. Having said that, maybe Casey didn't have a remote device or the security code for the garage door opener.

Thanks for the info. Jon. I guess my theory about the use of the side gate would depend on whether KC put her car in the garage that afternoon or not, but I am assuming she wouldn't have bothered, because she had to leave at some point before CA got home, in order to maintain her 'at work' story.

[USARDOG]

I also think the duct tape works in with the kidnap story too. I believe she wanted Caylee found thinking it would prove her innocent. The duct tape would look like a kidnap, and she was found with the book KC made a big deal about Caylee reading to her over the phone after she was kidnapped. Remember... (detective) What did she say... (KC)she only talked about the stupid book she was reading...

[Hercule Poirot]

Originally Posted by USARDOG

Yes, I was aware of the byproduct theory, but am under the impression that the levels were way to high for that scenario, and KC had done searches on her puter for Chloroform... Which indicates to me, she intended to use it for something... and I don't believe it was for cleaning. I'm thinking it was an easy, bloodless way to kill Caylee. Knock her out, put her in the pool to finish her off.

Too bad Caylee wasn't found months ago when tissue samples would have been possible.

If she was planning on a randsom, that would explain why she waited, instead of claiming accident or the nanny did it right away.

It seems that GA and CA made every effort to clean the trunk (and maybe KC had a go previously) They would have tried every cleaning product they had available. Combinations of cleaning chemical, pool chemical and paticularly chlorine bleach will produce all manner of chemical reactions and products. The bottle of bleach I have warns against mixing and that chlorine gas may be produced. That gas is itself very reactive and likely to produce chloro-carbon products, one of them being chloroform.

[static]

She was probably trying to text Tony or talk to him on the computer and Caylee needed attention. But how long does chloroform last in a glass container? Could she have had it made already or just made it ? I mean if she was that angry there was chloroform already made somewhere. How could she make it without any trace>>? You need a mask and other items as a glass jar and what not. I do not know enough about it and it seems there are alot of intelligent people in this forum who may give some ideas about where she made it and how she stored it. grrrr this is maddening

[Theonly1]

Originally Posted by Hercule Poirot

I'm not adamant about the pool having to be involved. I more or less agree with you. I am just trying to account for the bits of "evidence" about the pool. I have said before that KC would have no trouble in explaining and spinning an accident. That is her forte. I don't think it was an accident so her plan A might have been faking an accident. Pool is obvious, but who knows what she might of considered? I think plan B was to bury the body (borrowed spade), but too hard and obvious. Plan C was dump the body.

I'm thinking the clothes found in the bag or around the bones of Caylee may help fill in the missing puzzle pieces about what happened that fateful day. If a bathing suit is in the bag or with the remains then perhaps a swimming accident was staged. If the same outfit from the Father's Day video is with the body, perhaps it was chloroform, smothering or some other type of violence. Perhaps Caylee was in her little jammies. I'm sure we'll find out come trial (or in the next document dump).

[USARDOG]

Herc, then are you saying the chloroform search on her computer was just a coincidence?

[static]

LP said there was a swimsuit found with the remains yes.

[Hercule Poirot]

Originally Posted by Theonly1

I'm thinking the clothes found in the bag or around the bones of Caylee may help fill in the missing puzzle pieces about what happened that fateful day. If a bathing suit is in the bag or with the remains then perhaps a swimming accident was staged. If the same outfit from the Father's Day video is with the body, perhaps it was chloroform, smothering or some other type of violence. Perhaps Caylee was in her little jammies. I'm sure we'll find out come trial (or in the next document dump).

Yes. If those sorts of details are released, some theories will get a boost, others will be discounted. We'll still find something to argue about.

[eddeva]

Originally Posted by Hercule Poirot

yes and I think she was thinking evil thoughts about getting rid of the "burden" of Caylee, but not a full blown detailed plan to kill her as some think. I think a real accident would have been a "God send" to KC. She would have easily been able to explain and spin to someone elses fault, and even she herself was a heroine by trying to save her. I think KC killed her in a rage.

*bolded by me.

agreed. i don't honestly believe casey is mentally capable of making a detailed, well thought out plan in advance. i think she fantasized about life without caylee, and probably a few different ways to make it happen, but when it did happen it was an act of impulse.
i also agree with your description of how casey would have dealt with an accident. 'spin' is what casey does. she could've been a politician. if she can manipulate her mother into behaving as she has all these months, and that's with the unavoidable truth that casey killed cindy's grandchild, then she could had a field day with this scenario.

[Devon]

Originally Posted by USARDOG

Herc, then are you saying the chloroform search on her computer was just a coincidence?

A very clever fellow WS'er (JWG) has posted a a very plausible alternative explanation for the various searches on KC's computer. I think it's in this thread somewhere - I'll try to search for it, unless any else knows where to find it.

Edited: Here's the post I referred to (No.134):
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sho...oroform&page=6