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JonBenet Ramsey What really happened to 6 year old JonBenet? Someone is getting away with murder. All information posted on this site is gained through published documentation on this case. It is strictly opinion only.


View Poll Results: Who Killed Jon Benet Ramsey? POLL
John 84 7.99%
Patsy 423 40.25%
Burke 193 18.36%
An Intruder, (anyone including someone known to them) 351 33.40%
Voters: 1051. You may not vote on this poll

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  #51  
Old 08-25-2004, 12:56 PM
sissi sissi is offline
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Jonbenet was a trusting little girl, full of fantasy as in the children of the 40's and 50's, could this influence be based on old Shirley Temple movies? I ask this because ,while many of us are quick to spare our children from the sex and violence of today's movies we don't consider that perhaps the naive trust that children enjoyed during that period ,in those films, can and should not be emulated in our era. Shirley, had a proffessor of a grandad, a thief if I recall, and went everywhere with him (yep I could be bad on the recall),dancing for pennies in "Dimples". A trusting little girl who had seen her "idle" enjoy slipping out into the night on adventures could be easy prey. As the Darlings slipped away with "Peter Pan",one can imagine an imaginative child not questioning an adventure with someone to a "magical" place. In the case of Santa a trip to the North Pole could have been in store?
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  #52  
Old 08-25-2004, 04:51 PM
tipper tipper is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueCrab
I also wonder what the "artifact" was that was found on the tip of JonBenet's tongue.

JMO
I think the artifact was not 'an artifact' per se, but was the drying of the tip of her tongue as part of natural post-mortem changes.
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  #53  
Old 08-25-2004, 08:34 PM
BlueCrab BlueCrab is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tipper
I think the artifact was not 'an artifact' per se, but was the drying of the tip of her tongue as part of natural post-mortem changes.

Tipper,

An artifact is a man-made object. Board certified forensic pathologist Dr. John Meyer, with decades of experience under his belt, would know the difference between a man-made object and a human tongue.

The artifact on the tip of JonBenet's tongue could be a significant clue. It would at least be interesting to know what the artifact was.

JMO
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  #54  
Old 08-25-2004, 09:18 PM
tipper tipper is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueCrab
Tipper,

An artifact is a man-made object. Board certified forensic pathologist Dr. John Meyer, with decades of experience under his belt, would know the difference between a man-made object and a human tongue.

The artifact on the tip of JonBenet's tongue could be a significant clue. It would at least be interesting to know what the artifact was.

JMO
Bluecrab,
An artifact can (and usually does) refer to a manmade object. However it also has another, scientifically oriented meaning. #3 in the dictionary quote. I've also included some samples of "artifact" being used as I think it was in JonBenet's autopsy.

ar·ti·fact also ar·te·fact
  1. An object produced or shaped by human craft, especially a tool, weapon, or ornament of archaeological or historical interest.
  2. Something viewed as a product of human conception or agency rather than an inherent element: "The very act of looking at a naked model was an artifact of male supremacy" (Philip Weiss).
  3. A structure or feature not normally present but visible as a result of an external agent or action, such as one seen in a microscopic specimen after fixation, or in an image produced by radiology or electrocardiography.
  4. An inaccurate observation, effect, or result, especially one resulting from the technology used in scientific investigation or from experimental error: The apparent pattern in the data was an artifact of the collection method
http://www.mysterysteps.com/randomnotes/autopsy.htm

BACK: Present on the right upper back is a horizontal area of soft tissue indentation with postmortem drying artifact. There is a small pigmented nevus on the right lower quadrant of the back.

http://ag.ansc.purdue.edu/courses/aq448/diseases/biovsnec.htm

Large red dilated secondary filaments represent telangiectasis and occur as a post mortem artifact due to the changes in osmotic pressures (water versus air).

http://ag.ansc.purdue.edu/courses/aq448/diseases/biovsnec.htm

The lips demonstrates some early drying artifact as does the tip of the tongue.

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  #55  
Old 08-25-2004, 09:30 PM
twizzler333 twizzler333 is offline
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In medical language the word artifact is commonly used. In this instance the M.E. is probably referring to dried crusted saliva or possibly dried mucosal fluid.
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  #56  
Old 08-26-2004, 10:16 AM
BlueCrab BlueCrab is offline
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Tipper,

The word "artifact" in my dictionary (Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary) doesn't have the definitions you described.

artifact 1. a: a simple object (such as a tool or ornament) showing human workmanship or modification b: a product of civilization (such as the jet age) c: a product of artistic endeavor 2. a product (as a structure on a prepared microscope slide) of artificial character due to extraneous (as human) agency.

It seems obvious to me that the word "artifact" describes something that involves artificial construction, as opposed to natural construction. Therefore, the artifact on the tip of JonBenet's tongue couldn't have been naturally-drying saliva or skin, etc. That's not an artifact. It had to be of artificial construction to be an artifact.

JMO
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  #57  
Old 08-26-2004, 10:56 AM
Ivy Ivy is offline
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Amadou Diallo was unarmed when he was killed by police in a fusillade of 41 bullets outside his Bronx apartment house on Feb. 4, 1999. The following sentence is from his autopsy report:

There is slight tache noire artifact on the left bulbar conjunctiva.

(A tache noir is an ulcer covered with a black crust.)

imo
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  #58  
Old 08-26-2004, 11:36 AM
twizzler333 twizzler333 is offline
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Not sure where you all are going with this "artifact" spin here but this is the medical meaning:

Artifact of skin- 1) A skin lesion produced or perpetuated by self-inflicted action, as in dermatitis artefacta (self-induced skin lesions resulting from habitual rubbing, scratching, or hair pulling, malingering, or mental disturbance). Also referred to as dermatitis autophytica or factitial dermatitis. 2) Anything, especially in a histologic specimen or a graphic record, that is caused by the technique used or is not a natural occurrence, but is merely incidental.

This comes from the Stedman's Medical Dictionary we use at the hospital.

Hope this helps. I don't think the artifact is a significant finding that would change anything or help determine guilt or innocence of a particular person suspected in this case. BUT I could be wrong and if I am wrong, I am sure someone will kindly point it out to me.

Last edited by twizzler333; 08-26-2004 at 02:09 PM.
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  #59  
Old 08-26-2004, 02:03 PM
tipper tipper is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueCrab
Tipper,

The word "artifact" in my dictionary (Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary) doesn't have the definitions you described.

artifact 1. a: a simple object (such as a tool or ornament) showing human workmanship or modification b: a product of civilization (such as the jet age) c: a product of artistic endeavor 2. a product (as a structure on a prepared microscope slide) of artificial character due to extraneous (as human) agency.

It seems obvious to me that the word "artifact" describes something that involves artificial construction, as opposed to natural construction. Therefore, the artifact on the tip of JonBenet's tongue couldn't have been naturally-drying saliva or skin, etc. That's not an artifact. It had to be of artificial construction to be an artifact.

JMO
Definition #2 is what we mean.
"A product of artificial character" meaning the tip of her tongue (if she were alive) would not naturally or normally be dry.

"due to extraneous ... agency." In this case the extraneous agency was the warm, dry air in the basement coupled with her being dead.

Had she been alive she would have continuously kept her tongue moist. As it was - it had begun to dry out - starting at the tip. The skin on the end of her tongue reflected that change and were different from those cells that had not yet dried out.

Added: Would it help clarify what I'm trying to say if I said a blister is an artifact of hiking in shoes that don't fit? The blister is the natural reaction to an outside agency. In this case the shoe rubbing for some period of time.
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  #60  
Old 08-26-2004, 02:55 PM
BlueCrab BlueCrab is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tipper
Definition #2 is what we mean.
"A product of artificial character" meaning the tip of her tongue (if she were alive) would not naturally or normally be dry.

"due to extraneous ... agency." In this case the extraneous agency was the warm, dry air in the basement coupled with her being dead.

Had she been alive she would have continuously kept her tongue moist. As it was - it had begun to dry out - starting at the tip. The skin on the end of her tongue reflected that change and were different from those cells that had not yet dried out.

Added: Would it help clarify what I'm trying to say if I said a blister is an artifact of hiking in shoes that don't fit? The blister is the natural reaction to an outside agency. In this case the shoe rubbing for some period of time.

Tipper,

Okay. You win. The artifact COULD be the dried out tip of the tongue.

JMO
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  #61  
Old 08-26-2004, 03:28 PM
Toltec Toltec is offline
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I thought the artifact was paint....?

Anyhoo this Shirley Temple scenario/fantasy does not apply to JonBenet. She was a smart little girl according to John and would scream bloody murder if she felt she was in danger.

Shirley Temple talked about being in a producers office and he attempted to molest her? So much for innocence.

Patsy spoke of JonBenet having a crush on a neighborhood kid that was much older than she. When the boy would come to the Ramsey home JonBenet would blush when she saw him. Patsy also said that she had to keep a close eye on JonBenet when he was around.
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  #62  
Old 08-26-2004, 05:35 PM
princessmer81 princessmer81 is offline
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I have always wondered if the brother did it. I didn't realize that the brother's name was Burke until I read the post above. Obviously I am a newbie and I haven't read many of the old posts! I feel horrible about even considering that he could be the one to have done it.
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  #63  
Old 08-26-2004, 06:47 PM
K777angel K777angel is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by princessmer81
I have always wondered if the brother did it. I didn't realize that the brother's name was Burke until I read the post above. Obviously I am a newbie and I haven't read many of the old posts! I feel horrible about even considering that he could be the one to have done it.
Don't feel bad about considering one of the 3 other people that were in the home that night. It happens. Kids do kill each other. We had a case around here not too long ago where a 9 yr old boy got a shotgun out and killed his 6 yr old little sister because she was annoying him. This was not a drug abusing family or anything like that. Intact family with mom, dad and kids and by all accounts a nice family. Truth is - it happens. Tragic when it does.
My brother once heaved a big hoe at me when we were young (he was around ten or so) cuz he was mad at me and it knicked the back of my head.
Could have been much worse - but he did not mean to really injure me.
I can recall some very close calls with my own children. They just get mad and lash out - but do not mean to kill.
I am not saying that Burke DID kill his little sister. I am just saying it is very possible and given the evidence and circumstances of this case - quite a viable theory. One that I tend to subscribe to.

I cannot help but recall the New York Post's famous article they reprinted by the Star. The one that stated that Burke was indeed the one who killed JonBenet. The one that made John and Patsy go ballistic and sue. More than any other article printed. And there were hundreds. The New York Post stood by it's story and sources.
It stated in part: "The story of how JonBenet was killed, and why, is at bottom an incredibly sad one, more than a criminal one," Star quotes an "authoritative" source as saying. "It's time to put this tragic case behind us."
It claimed that Hunter wanted to avoid a lengthy trial and was involved in plea-bargain negotiations with Ramsey lawyers. It claimed that Hunter also wanted Patsy punished for her role in the cover-up and that he wanted Burke to receive counseling or treatment.
Burke did receive counseling.
There was an avoidance of a trial.
Patsy was never punished - because they could not arrest Burke as he was under age and could never be charged. So Patsy could never be arrested as an "accessory."
I've always felt there was some truth in that New York Post article.
The subsequent order from the US District Court in Colorado regarding the civil action had some interesting things in it. It states, "Defendant (NY Post) claims the evidence sought in the subpoena is crucial to its defense to the defamation claim. It states the documents sought are directly related to key issues in that action, including Burke's possible involvement in the murder and/or his parents' possible involvement in a cover-up, reported plea bargain negotiations with Burke's representatives, and even whether someone in the District Attorney's office provided the information about Burke to the Star magazine.
It also states: "A comparison of the affadavit and draft (Exhibits B and D to response) reflects that Hunter decided to delete certain statements, including a statement that investigators were satisfied that Burke was not a suspect and that Burke was never viewed as a suspect."
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  #64  
Old 09-02-2004, 06:11 PM
cherub cherub is offline
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with her trying to point out her husband and him ignoring her emotional needs the day the little girl was found it could have been either one.
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  #65  
Old 09-11-2004, 05:21 PM
TressaRing28 TressaRing28 is offline
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Question ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cherub
with her trying to point out her husband and him ignoring her emotional needs the day the little girl was found it could have been either one.

Hi Cherub,

Who was trying to point out her husband? Patsy?

I think thats wrong infomation.


Yes John was not in the Sunroom with Patsy very often , but he was also waiting by the phone and talking with Linda Arndt on how to answer phone.
He also was went down to Basement about 9 am . He didn't find Jon Benet's
Body ,so he said just looked in Train room and noticed that basement window was broken.

I don't think John was involved with JB's death...
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  #66  
Old 09-11-2004, 06:27 PM
tipper tipper is offline
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According to the Victim Advocates, (Morlock & Jedamus) John was not "ignoring her emotional needs" and was seen comforting Patsy and behaving as one would expect given the circumstances.
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  #67  
Old 10-05-2004, 08:28 PM
Zman Zman is offline
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John Ramsey/Basement

He also was went down to Basement about 9 am . He didn't find Jon Benet's
Body ,so he said just looked in Train room and noticed that basement window was broken.

I think that if I were in the same situation I would search every inch of my home for my daughter. But thats me. If John Ramsey was just looking for a sign of how an "intruder" would of entered his home he may not of looked in the windowless room assuming there was no way in from there.
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  #68  
Old 10-13-2004, 08:46 AM
sissi sissi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zman
He also was went down to Basement about 9 am . He didn't find Jon Benet's
Body ,so he said just looked in Train room and noticed that basement window was broken.

I think that if I were in the same situation I would search every inch of my home for my daughter. But thats me. If John Ramsey was just looking for a sign of how an "intruder" would of entered his home he may not of looked in the windowless room assuming there was no way in from there.
I may need some help with the chronology, however I believe it was the first cop who went down, saw nothing, followed an hour or so by Fleet's trip down, also found nothing, last John went down a few hours later, found nothing. John said there was a chair blocking the train room door, and he had to move it to enter, this always made me go hmmmm...when both the cop and Fleet had already checked out the train room. The same with the "wine cellar door", Fleet had already opened it, yet John had to unlatch the lock to look inside. Between the cop and John was Fleet's trip, he put a chair back in front of the door, and locked the other, is there something odd about this?
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  #69  
Old 10-14-2004, 10:48 PM
ManInTheBox ManInTheBox is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sissi
I may need some help with the chronology, however I believe it was the first cop who went down, saw nothing, followed an hour or so by Fleet's trip down, also found nothing, last John went down a few hours later, found nothing. John said there was a chair blocking the train room door, and he had to move it to enter, this always made me go hmmmm...when both the cop and Fleet had already checked out the train room. The same with the "wine cellar door", Fleet had already opened it, yet John had to unlatch the lock to look inside. Between the cop and John was Fleet's trip, he put a chair back in front of the door, and locked the other, is there something odd about this?
Not about locking the door. The door was locked originally, why not lock it when u close it. Wouldn't that be your logic. The chait on the otehr hand (which I had no other previous knowledge of) I dunno about that. Perhaps for the same reason Leaving things the way they were? *shrugs*
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  #70  
Old 10-15-2004, 07:50 AM
BlueCrab BlueCrab is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sissi
I may need some help with the chronology, however I believe it was the first cop who went down, saw nothing, followed an hour or so by Fleet's trip down, also found nothing, last John went down a few hours later, found nothing. John said there was a chair blocking the train room door, and he had to move it to enter, this always made me go hmmmm...when both the cop and Fleet had already checked out the train room. The same with the "wine cellar door", Fleet had already opened it, yet John had to unlatch the lock to look inside. Between the cop and John was Fleet's trip, he put a chair back in front of the door, and locked the other, is there something odd about this?

Sissi,

I've got to say this. Your recollection of the facts in this case is often misleading. Please review the facts more carefully before posting so as to prevent misinformation from getting spread around, or are you doing this on purpose?

For instance, Officer Rick French did search the basement immediately after arriving at 6:00 A.M., and apparently found nothing. But Fleet White followed with his search of the basement just minutes later, immediately after he got there -- not one hour later.

John Ramsey admits he went down to the basement several hours later by himself, but he never said he did a SEARCH. He never opened the wine cellar door and looked in (according to him). It was Fleet White who did that. John simply said he went to the broken window and contemplated its significance (I don't believe him, but this is what he claims. I personally believe John used this opportunity to move the body.).

JMO
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  #71  
Old 10-15-2004, 09:02 AM
sissi sissi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueCrab
Sissi,

I've got to say this. Your recollection of the facts in this case is often misleading. Please review the facts more carefully before posting so as to prevent misinformation from getting spread around, or are you doing this on purpose?

For instance, Officer Rick French did search the basement immediately after arriving at 6:00 A.M., and apparently found nothing. But Fleet White followed with his search of the basement just minutes later, immediately after he got there -- not one hour later.

John Ramsey admits he went down to the basement several hours later by himself, but he never said he did a SEARCH. He never opened the wine cellar door and looked in (according to him). It was Fleet White who did that. John simply said he went to the broken window and contemplated its significance (I don't believe him, but this is what he claims. I personally believe John used this opportunity to move the body.).

JMO
You find my comments misleading?
The chair had to be moved twice before John went into that train room!!!
I never suggested John went into the wine cellar at any time prior to finding the body!
MY point was this, TWO looked into the train room early before John's early trip, before the body was found, and HE had to move a chair to open the door. I found this strange, yes!
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  #72  
Old 10-15-2004, 01:10 PM
Voice for Justice Voice for Justice is offline
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Amazed

Being newly registered here, I have just voted in the poll that started this thread. I am truly amazed that so many people who voted feel that JonBenet's older brother Burke is responsible for her murder. Considering how her body was found in the basement of the family's Bouldar, Colorado home, it is hard for me to believe a then nine year old boy responsible. The only motive, I could assume would even fly would be jealousy over the attention given JonBenet as a child beauty pagent entry and a means by which her mother used her daughter to build upon her own ego.

Because of that ego, I find it hard to believe that Pasty would have destroyed that. She was reliving her life through JonBenet. Perhaps it was John Ramsey who was jealous of the attention his young daughter was receiving from his wife.

Many believe that is was Patsy who wrote the ransom note. If so, who was she protecting. Her husband. Her son. Herself.

Because Bouldar LE was not fully prepared to deal with such a case, there will likely never be a trial here. No justice for JonBenet Ramsey.

Although an intruder cannot be completely ruled out, it seems to me to be unlikely. Why would an intruder attack JonBenet in her own home. Most would get the child out of the house, as was done with Polly Klaas and Danielle van Dam.

I keep changing from one parent to another to an intruder. But unlike many in this poll, I find Burke Ramsey to be the least likely suspect.

Bob (VFJ)
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  #73  
Old 10-15-2004, 02:25 PM
BlueCrab BlueCrab is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Voice for Justice

I am truly amazed that so many people who voted feel that JonBenet's older brother Burke is responsible for her murder.

I find Burke Ramsey to be the least likely suspect.

Voice,

Hang around awhile and absorb some of the evidence against Burke, and you might change your mind.

Burke is my number one suspect. John Andrew is my number two suspect. WHY? Because the Ramseys are lying and covering up, and they'd only do this for a family member. John and Patsy have sufficient exculpatory evidence in their favor -- that leaves Burke and JAR.

JMO
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  #74  
Old 10-15-2004, 03:01 PM
BrotherMoon BrotherMoon is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Voice for Justice
Being newly registered here, I have just voted in the poll that started this thread. I am truly amazed that so many people who voted feel that JonBenet's older brother Burke is responsible for her murder. Considering how her body was found in the basement of the family's Bouldar, Colorado home, it is hard for me to believe a then nine year old boy responsible. The only motive, I could assume would even fly would be jealousy over the attention given JonBenet as a child beauty pagent entry and a means by which her mother used her daughter to build upon her own ego.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Voice for Justice
Because of that ego, I find it hard to believe that Pasty would have destroyed that.She was reliving her life through JonBenet.
She still is. She thinks JB is in a heaven with a God awaiting her mother's arrival. Thing is, Patsy put her there for that purpose.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Voice for Justice
Many believe that is was Patsy who wrote the ransom note. If so, who was she protecting. Her husband. Her son. Herself.

Because Bouldar LE was not fully prepared to deal with such a case, there will likely never be a trial here. No justice for JonBenet Ramsey.

Although an intruder cannot be completely ruled out, it seems to me to be unlikely. Why would an intruder attack JonBenet in her own home. Most would get the child out of the house, as was done with Polly Klaas and Danielle van Dam.

I keep changing from one parent to another to an intruder. But unlike many in this poll, I find Burke Ramsey to be the least likely suspect.

Bob (VFJ)
Well said, but it wasn't just LE that screwed up, some in LE had it right (almost). The Boulder culture is to blame.
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  #75  
Old 10-15-2004, 03:02 PM
BrotherMoon BrotherMoon is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueCrab
Voice,

Hang around awhile and absorb some of the evidence against Burke, and you might change your mind.

Burke is my number one suspect. John Andrew is my number two suspect. WHY? Because the Ramseys are lying and covering up, and they'd only do this for a family member. John and Patsy have sufficient exculpatory evidence in their favor -- that leaves Burke and JAR.

JMO
Don't mind BC, he's just noodling around.
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