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Caylee Anthony 2 years old Not reported missing for a month after she was last seen.


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  #101  
Old 06-25-2009, 03:32 AM
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Originally Posted by robotdog View Post
CA knew she was pregnant... she had to

i bet LE has the songram records....... and witness statements when CA was in the office with KC
Kio (I think that is her name) knew Casey was pregnant.
They talked about it, so Casey definitely knew.

I had a thought while reading these posts that hadn't occured to me before about the pregnancy denial. If Cindy and Casey were going to raise a baby two months after the wedding why lie about it to the family this baby will be part of?

Was there a plan to not keep Caylee (possibly Casey's plan and Cindy was working on convincing her otherwise?) so they figured they could pretend she wasn't pregnant, give Caylee away, and then go back to life as "anthony-normal" and Casey wouldn't be labeled as a knocked up teen?

We know the nursery was set up last minute. We know she was talking about adoption with Kio, not that I think Kio was ever a canidate but the topic was on Casey's mind.
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Old 06-25-2009, 03:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Spangle View Post
That isn't the point. She would be doing it, so that she can 'explain' to the jury. In hopes the jury will feel sorry for KC and NOT give her the DP.

that is how AL works.
It is called a mitigating factor and if they come back with a guilty verdict we will hear all about the torture Casey grew up with and how she never had a chance under Cindy's rule. They will argue that, her age, etc... anything to give the jury a reason to not want to kill her. In Florida the judge can impose the death penalty even if the jury recommends life in prison. Doesn't happen often, but it does happen.
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  #103  
Old 06-25-2009, 03:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Truthwillsetufree View Post
KC spoke those words after telling her parents she had been talking with the jail's psychiatrist. IIRC
I think she is referring to the blowout fight on the 15th. Cindy knew right from the beginning that if the police knew about that fight it would change the whole investigation. I do think Cindy wanted to believe Caylee was alive those first couple of days (never bought that nanny story though). If Casey mentions the fight the rest of the family is exposed as liars, conspiring, etc.....
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  #104  
Old 06-25-2009, 05:53 AM
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Originally Posted by impatientredhead View Post
It is called a mitigating factor and if they come back with a guilty verdict we will hear all about the torture Casey grew up with and how she never had a chance under Cindy's rule. They will argue that, her age, etc... anything to give the jury a reason to not want to kill her. In Florida the judge can impose the death penalty even if the jury recommends life in prison. Doesn't happen often, but it does happen.
"Anything to give the jury a reason not to kill her" is right on target. Out will come the statements from TonE and JG that KC told them of sexual advances from LA &/or GA. (whether it's true or not). Out will come the portrayal of a home in turmoil evidenced by domestic disputes at the home shown by previous calls of service, out will come testimony of how over-bearing CA was, and that KC never even had a chance at mothering Caylee.

Of course we all know KC has her own free will, and made the choice to do what she did, but you can bet AL's argument will be "How could we expect anything else?"
  #105  
Old 06-25-2009, 07:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Pattymarie View Post
The absolute absence of the father in for this child is for me, one of the most glaring dysfunctions of this whole family. After all this time, not one clue of who this guy is/was. No one has emerged, no one has figured out who Casey dated 9 months before the baby was born. No man has admitted anything, not even one who may think he is the father and at least come out as a voice for Caylee. Nothing. He has to be dead.

Everyone has a father, why not Caylee? Why hide him, even if he is dead? Why deprive the paternal side of the family? Denial of pregnancy, denial of fatherhood, denial of thievery, denial of fraud, denial of murder.
Or if you go by MichelleM's version of what she knew, the father was a one-time thing in Ohio at an amusement park. There are so many versions of who the biodad is, that it's almost laughable. In any case, it's clear that KC didn't want anyone to know.
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  #106  
Old 06-25-2009, 08:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Capri View Post
Or if you go by MichelleM's version of what she knew, the father was a one-time thing in Ohio at an amusement park. There are so many versions of who the biodad is, that it's almost laughable. In any case, it's clear that KC didn't want anyone to know.
I am not convinced Casey knows.

The amount of people that knew about the family secrets (the lying, the stealing, the brawling, the money problems) they don't seem like a cohesive secret keeping group. And if Cindy actually knew who this man was she would have tossed him right under the same bus she tried to shove Jesse Grund in front of.
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  #107  
Old 06-25-2009, 09:33 AM
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Here are the other threads for those of you that may be new to this topic:
Casey's psychological profile - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

Casey and Family... Psychological Profile #2 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

Casey and Family... Psychological Profile #3 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

Psychological Profile of Casey and Company #4 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

Psychological profile of Anthony Family #5 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

Insanity Plea and Complete Family Psych Profile #6 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

Not Guilty By Reason of Insanity and Related Psych Profile #7 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community
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  #108  
Old 06-25-2009, 10:47 AM
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Originally Posted by FootballMom View Post

RESPECTFULLY SNIPPED

It is my contention that something happened in early 2004 to cause KC to quit school just shy of graduation and then find herself pregnant within 6 months or so.... I suspect the pressure to be perfect was finally building and KC was rebelling a little more at a time. My gut tells me that KC was raped either by placing herself into a compromising situation (and feels responsible) or she truly was forcibly raped... either way it would be traumatic enough to possibly cause PSTD and get the ball rolling with her new persona. [WARING SIGN #3]

Regardless of whether or not she was raped, it is evident that she did not want to be pregnant. I would not doubt that she denied to herself that she was pregnant long before she finally had no other choice but to admit it to her parents. She confessed to at least one friend that she did not want the baby and wanted to give it up for adoption but that her mother was making her have the baby. Yet another example of CA's controlling behavior and now KC is really trapped with her parents. I'll go ahead and now say, that in and of itself may have caused some PTSD... throw in some major hormone changes before and after birth (PPD) (especially in that house) and we (the outside observers) could pull up our lawn chairs and wait for the top to fly off the pressure cooker. [WARING SIGN # 4 & #5]


In summary... CA & GA provided an environment that would foster emotional and psychological damage by predisposing KC to their own maladaptive parental disorders.
FOOTBALL MOM,
I have thought so many times that something traumatic must have happened to her toward the end of HS, and never thought of this, but that possibility makes a lot of sense, in view of her sexual activity and multiple sex partners. My take is that she usually had so many different sexual partners at the same time, she really does not know who the father really is, (considering they float so many different stories about parentage, I don't think they know either)
We will probably never know when CA knew about the pregnancy, but I'd really like to know at which point Casey brought up the idea of giving the baby up for adoption, and Cindy shot that down. Casey really was trapped into this sick situation. Your post makes a lot of sense, and I agree with your reasoning & deductions on most of those theories. Thanks
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  #109  
Old 06-25-2009, 10:47 AM
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Originally Posted by JBean View Post
I don't think Cindy wanted to share this baby with anyone and that is part of the family dysfunction. Cindy was in control of most things and being the sole grandmother (and possibly the sole mother in many ways), kept things easier to manipulate.
I think we know that KC had enough sexual partners to leave a big question as to the father and they possibly capitalized on that.
I think if the deceased young man is not the father, then it makes perfect sense to not name someone because the control over Caylee was simplified. But of course the only one that had more control was KC and that was most likely the beginning of the end for this family dynamic and caylee herself.
jmho of course.
I agree, and Caylee also provided Cindy with a reason and means to exert control over KC--but her control over KC and Caylee would have ended if KC ever became independent and self-supporting, which may be one of the reasons Cindy permitted KC to continually lie, steal, and "mooch" off the family. There was no escape route in that for KC or Caylee.

I often wonder what Cindy would have done if KC had married someone from a distant state and tried to take Caylee with her.
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  #110  
Old 06-25-2009, 10:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Truthwillsetufree View Post
I just don't see how CA did not Not know her only daughter was pregnant. JMO but I think the whole family knew, they just didn't want everyone else knowing. You would think CA would have purchased KC baggy clothing to wear to the wedding weekend though. The A's lie, they just don't do it well.
The only conclusion I can draw is that the A's didn't want to hide KC's pregnancy. If so, then it's almost as if KC and CA wanted to pull off a power-play by forcing the rest of the family and wedding guests to go along with them. Just to see if they could? That makes no sense, but I wrote it so I guess I'll post it anyway.
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Old 06-25-2009, 10:54 AM
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Good points Friday. I can't imagine that Cindy ever gave instruction to Casey about how to eventually become independent. It is a step process, as most parent's know and doesn't usually happen the day they turn 18. I get the strong feeling that Cindy never wanted to prepare Casey for independence, a life away from her. If she did anything, she furthered Casey's dependence on her.
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  #112  
Old 06-25-2009, 11:03 AM
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Good points Friday. I can't imagine that Cindy ever gave instruction to Casey about how to eventually become independent. It is a step process, as most parent's know and doesn't usually happen the day they turn 18. I get the strong feeling that Cindy never wanted to prepare Casey for independence, a life away from her. If she did anything, she furthered Casey's dependence on her.
EXACTLY....she created the monster we see before us. So may Cindy live with her own guilt from it. You can't enable and force an independence when you "mothered" a dependence from the get go!
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  #113  
Old 06-25-2009, 11:50 AM
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We are getting a little far afield on the paternity. It is getting OT now. thanks guys.
  #114  
Old 06-25-2009, 11:50 AM
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Does anyone have a psychiatric theory about Casey's mental state, the first time she was arrested wearing the blue hoody? It was her first perp walk through the Police station, grinning and swinging her hips without a care in the world.I remember thinking she was acting very strangely back then but I didn't have any baseline Casey to compare it to. Now I've had a gut full of the gal and still go back to that moment in awe.
She waltzed through the station with pride, back erect, like she was auditioning for a movie role. In light of what we know now....I really see her as completely insane in that clip.Not to say she was criminally insane because she isn't and wasn't period! Criminally insane people don't need to cover their tracks and hide the way KC did. Or lie.


I need more than 'sociopath' I guess, to explain such deviant and twisted behavior. MDmom?
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Originally Posted by ButForFortune View Post
I get chills every time I see that clip, and it is shown so often I think many, many, people see that clip and realize that evil does walk our earth. In my opinion, she is proud of herself at that moment and scornful of anyone who thinks they can make her pay a price for what she has done. She loves the attention that is directed her way. (She does not realize this is still Caylee getting all the attention - after all, this entire circus started because of Caylee, not her.)

There is no pretense in the video clip, she is showing her true self for the entire world to see. That small, sly, cunning, smile gets me every time. EVERY time! I don't know if she is insane, but she is definitely something to be feared when she walks among us.
Bold mine...

It get me everytime too, especially the look in her eyes, it's demonic!
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  #115  
Old 06-25-2009, 11:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Hollys G-mom View Post
Boldened by me: I so totally agree with you. I've said it from the beginning. The Anthony's act like a family who has been AWARE & hiding a BIG secret, most often being Incest. Like it or not...it is very possible. Part of what makes these types of abuse victims so damaged is being forced to lead a double life. Reality vs. Appearances. In drastic cases it even has the ability to form BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder- much like Scitzophrenea only the "personalities" all know about on another and the victim never has black-outs or loses time) and scitzo-affective disorders. I come from just this type of upbringing. The reality of being sexually abused by a parent first, then a sibling after is almost unbearable and hard to make peace with. Then to have to live a lie daily for YEARS....we'll it will make you crazy. Like it or not. That is what we are all talking about her folks. Cindy & George's behaviours and denials are what has made KC a monster. My personal verdict is that she is insane. The reason I believe so...it would take a mother being insane to do to Caylee what has been done to her. Maybe KC truely WAS raised not to know right from wrong. If her role models acted in these ways, how can we expect any different from her? JMHO
We have no evidence, whatever, of incest in the A family. Some people opined that Caylee was Lee's baby. The FBI proved otherwise.

And, the mods decided that incest discussions belong in the Parking Lot. So, please take it there. Thanks.

BTW-- Your personal verdict is one thing.*The legal definition of insane is another.

Unfortunately, we are stuck with the law, rather than personal opinion.

BHTW-- ALL closed-system families behave as though they have terrible secrets. Mine did. The "secret" was pretty mundane, and did not involve incest.
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  #116  
Old 06-25-2009, 11:57 AM
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Originally Posted by impatientredhead View Post
I am not convinced Casey knows.

The amount of people that knew about the family secrets (the lying, the stealing, the brawling, the money problems) they don't seem like a cohesive secret keeping group. And if Cindy actually knew who this man was she would have tossed him right under the same bus she tried to shove Jesse Grund in front of.
Red, what're we gonna DO with you? You JUST keep on making too much sense!

You're right! CA was hostile to JG, because another family was gonna have some control over Caylee. CA woulda taken on anyone who had any claim at all to the baby-of-contention.
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Old 06-25-2009, 12:02 PM
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Originally Posted by celticthyme View Post
FOOTBALL MOM,
I have thought so many times that something traumatic must have happened to her toward the end of HS, and never thought of this, but that possibility makes a lot of sense, in view of her sexual activity and multiple sex partners. My take is that she usually had so many different sexual partners at the same time, she really does not know who the father really is, (considering they float so many different stories about parentage, I don't think they know either)
We will probably never know when CA knew about the pregnancy, but I'd really like to know at which point Casey brought up the idea of giving the baby up for adoption, and Cindy shot that down. Casey really was trapped into this sick situation. Your post makes a lot of sense, and I agree with your reasoning & deductions on most of those theories. Thanks
We also have no evidence, whatsoever, that KC was raped, or that "something traumatic" happened. per Ryan and Amy, KC was always pretty much a liar, manipulator and a sneak. And, Ryan knew her from age five. Amy and KC decided to "dump" their virginity at the same time. KC went whole hog.

Would Drew Peterson or Scott Peterson have to have been victims of a sexual crime? How about Diane Downs? It's all the same personality disorder, and it's all about murder of kids/wives.

BTW-- KC wasn't trapped. She had the legal choice. CA could not have forced anything. The law was on KC's side, and she knew it. She also had the choice to have an abortion, early on, at Planned Parenthood. Her folks would never have known.

Like it or not, KC is not a victim. She is a victimizer. A chronic liar, thief, and murderess.
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  #118  
Old 06-25-2009, 12:06 PM
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EXACTLY....she created the monster we see before us. So may Cindy live with her own guilt from it. You can't enable and force an independence when you "mothered" a dependence from the get go!
That was a choice between the two of them. My parents did everything they could to discourage our independence. I ran away, and got a job in another town. My sister married, to get out of the house.

KC cold have chosen to get work, and get her own place, whether CA liked it or not.

KC is not a victim. She victimizes every life that she touches.
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Old 06-25-2009, 12:08 PM
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I agree, and Caylee also provided Cindy with a reason and means to exert control over KC--but her control over KC and Caylee would have ended if KC ever became independent and self-supporting, which may be one of the reasons Cindy permitted KC to continually lie, steal, and "mooch" off the family. There was no escape route in that for KC or Caylee.

I often wonder what Cindy would have done if KC had married someone from a distant state and tried to take Caylee with her.
Sure there was an escape. KC could have got a job. But, she'd rather party than work, and the baby got in the way.
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Old 06-25-2009, 12:09 PM
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As far as the incest theory, this was a 20 year old woman, right? All she had to do to get away from family abuse/incest was to get a job and move out.

Instead she pretended to have a job and stayed with the family, bringing her own child into it.

This is why I have problems with the incest theory. Though, who knows. This whole thing is too bizzare.
There are more problems with the incest theory than that. Which is why the mods ordered any discussion to go out in the Parking Lot.
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Old 06-25-2009, 12:21 PM
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I'm going to start by saying I expect to receive alot of dissenting opinions but... I'm putting it out there anyway...

I don't believe that KC is a "true sociopath" at least not clinically speaking... She does exhibit quite a few of the traits associated with sociopathy, narcissism, depression , anxiety and dare I say it? PTSD.... I'm sorry, but she does...

True sociopaths are born that way and the evidence will present itself in early childhood and before the age of 15. As far as I can tell, and please someone correct me if I am wrong, but it is my understanding that KC was able to express positive emotions and feelings for people, was very well behaved in school, never in any trouble and made good grades... until she dropped out right before graduation in 2004. I would really love to know the reason why she did because I see that as the jumping off point for the buildup that had been occurring for years. [WARING SIGN #1]

Sociopathic behavior (along with the other myriad of potential KC diagnosis) is a learned response. KC was raised in a home with a mother that has been described as having & has on several occasions exhibited the following characteristics in public; inconsistent maternal enforcement of rules, loud arguments between the parents, low maternal educational aspirations for the child, maternal difficulty controlling anger toward the child, maternal possessiveness, maternal use of guilt to control the child, maternal verbal abuse, paternal assistance to the child's mother, and paternal fulfillment of the role of father. (I posted that description earlier) [WARING SIGN #2]

It is my contention that something happened in early 2004 to cause KC to quit school just shy of graduation and then find herself pregnant within 6 months or so.... I suspect the pressure to be perfect was finally building and KC was rebelling a little more at a time. My gut tells me that KC was raped either by placing herself into a compromising situation (and feels responsible) or she truly was forcibly raped... either way it would be traumatic enough to possibly cause PSTD and get the ball rolling with her new persona. [WARING SIGN #3]

Regardless of whether or not she was raped, it is evident that she did not want to be pregnant. I would not doubt that she denied to herself that she was pregnant long before she finally had no other choice but to admit it to her parents. She confessed to at least one friend that she did not want the baby and wanted to give it up for adoption but that her mother was making her have the baby. Yet another example of CA's controlling behavior and now KC is really trapped with her parents. I'll go ahead and now say, that in and of itself may have caused some PTSD... throw in some major hormone changes before and after birth (PPD) (especially in that house) and we (the outside observers) could pull up our lawn chairs and wait for the top to fly off the pressure cooker. [WARING SIGN # 4 & #5]

However.... KC wasn't fully cooked yet.... she had a relationship with Jesse that would have provided an escape for her but that relationship failed and it seems that point was yet another stepping stone in her downward spiral... from what I can tell it seems that time frame corresponds to when the excessive lying, stealing from family and promiscuity really started to take off... the sociopathic/narcissistic/adjustment disorder with mixed anxiety and depression KC was emerging from her cocoon.. [WARNING SIGNS #6, #7 & #8]

Jesse reports KC having a seizure (I know alot about this has been discussed) but random seizures (with no prior history) can be another warning sign from your body that something is wrong in your brain, chemically and/or structuarly something isn't working right, add that to the other stressers in her life and the disorder pot starts boiling even harder. [WARNING SIGN #9]

I know that she told two different friend on two separate occasions that she wanted to check herself into a mental hospital, saying she was depressed and felt trapped. I believe the last call like that was in December/January 2008(again, correct me if I am wrong). [WARNING SIGNS #10 & #11]

I believe by February 2008 KC was beginning to fantasize about her parents being out of her life and possibly Caylee as well.(if only to spite her mother).. By March 2008 (when the computer searches began) she was starting to consider it even more and was looking for ways to accomplish the task when the day would come. [WARNING SIGN #12 - in all fairness this one would be hard to detect unless you were searching for it]

May 13th - KC starts talking to Amy about moving in together and that CA would be signing the house over to her in mid-June. About 3 weeks later Amy says that CA took back the agreement because she had 30 days to do so.... then said 2 days later GA was cheating on CA. (setting up murder/suicide?)

May 19th - KC provides Amy with a tentative move-in date of June 18th...

June 13th KC says GA has a mini-stroke and she can't go to Jax with Amy to get her car...

June15th - CA & Caylee visit GGP's.... alleged blowup fight at the A's that evening CA strangles KC.

June 16th - KC & Caylee leave without taking extra clothes. Come back to the house and well... at this point... KC has officially "snapped" probably the night before.... it is anyone's guess as to the exact method; duct tape to silence, to smother her mouth & nose, put her in the pool to drown/suffocate w/ the tape on, taped her up, wrapped her in the poo blanket, put her in the laundry bag and then into the plastic bin in her car and drove away... then put her in garbage bags before she dumped her in the woods (to manage leaks, make it look like trash)... and of course she could have put the duct tape on her to make it look like a kidnapping so she wouldn't be blamed when she was found.

APD's are not always skilled liars because they expect their victims to believe what they say and don't' know how to react when they don't buy their stories... they are very capable of turning off interpersonal connections when they are faced with the truth or stressful events. During acts that they know are wrong but just don't care enough to stop themselves it is very easy for them to disassociate themselves. It makes them able to commit violent acts without feeling remorse. Her lack of emotions except when she is the one being punished are good demonstrations of her disassociation with Caylee and her only concern is for herself (in court & speaking to her parents).

In summary... CA & GA provided an environment that would foster emotional and psychological damage by predisposing KC to their own maladaptive parental disorders.

And please don't misunderstand... I have little sympathy for people that grow up in very dysfunctional households and consistently blame their parents for why they can't function as well as others. If are able to know that you have a problem then you are able to fix it or at least get help, counseling, medication, both... warning label tattooed on your forehead. I could be a poster child for most messed up family in the US but I'm just very luckly and glad that I didn't end up on the back of a milk carton....
Well, when KC was in high school, she used to go into the wood near the school and drink, smoke dope, and get with guys.

ONE person who claimed to know a teacher, said KC was a good student. Others said she was indifferent.

And, old friends like Ryan and Amy said she had untrustworthy as long as they could remember. Ryan knew her since age five, and Amy knew her, I think, since her early teens.

She dumped JG, twice. The first time because she thought he "loved her more than he did Caylee." He never dumped her. It's been opined that she got bored, He was a stay at home guy, and she a partyer. She was also hitting on another guy while she was engaged to him.

So, this gal has been a bit unsavory for quite a while. Not to mention robbing her famlly, including her disabled grandfather.

So, I find it hard to but that she's a romantic, fallen angel, who was a "good girl" until some tragic trauma. Her history goes farther back than that. It looks like she's been of indifferent character all her life.
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Old 06-25-2009, 12:23 PM
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Originally Posted by JBean View Post
I don't think Cindy wanted to share this baby with anyone and that is part of the family dysfunction. Cindy was in control of most things and being the sole grandmother (and possibly the sole mother in many ways), kept things easier to manipulate.
I think we know that KC had enough sexual partners to leave a big question as to the father and they possibly capitalized on that.
I think if the deceased young man is not the father, then it makes perfect sense to not name someone because the control over Caylee was simplified. But of course the only one that had more control was KC and that was most likely the beginning of the end for this family dynamic and caylee herself.
jmho of course.
J, aren't we supposed to source rumors, now? Like the rape and incest stuff?
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  #123  
Old 06-25-2009, 12:24 PM
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Brini Brini is offline
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Originally Posted by MaedchenX View Post
I believe it is Posttraumatic Stress Disorder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ptsd)
Yes, it is.
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  #124  
Old 06-25-2009, 12:27 PM
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Brini Brini is offline
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Originally Posted by impatientredhead View Post
Kio (I think that is her name) knew Casey was pregnant.
They talked about it, so Casey definitely knew.

I had a thought while reading these posts that hadn't occured to me before about the pregnancy denial. If Cindy and Casey were going to raise a baby two months after the wedding why lie about it to the family this baby will be part of?

Was there a plan to not keep Caylee (possibly Casey's plan and Cindy was working on convincing her otherwise?) so they figured they could pretend she wasn't pregnant, give Caylee away, and then go back to life as "anthony-normal" and Casey wouldn't be labeled as a knocked up teen?

We know the nursery was set up last minute. We know she was talking about adoption with Kio, not that I think Kio was ever a canidate but the topic was on Casey's mind.

Yeah, KC told Amy the rubber broke.

If KC really didn't want the baby, she could have got her butt down to Planned Parenthood, had an abortion, and the folks would never have known.
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  #125  
Old 06-25-2009, 12:39 PM
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impatientredhead impatientredhead is offline
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Originally Posted by Brini View Post
Yeah, KC told Amy the rubber broke.

If KC really didn't want the baby, she could have got her butt down to Planned Parenthood, had an abortion, and the folks would never have known.
I agree and have really given up on Casey's thought process.
The part of the pregnancy denial that interest me is Cindy.
They weren't acknowledging the pregnancy in public. They hadn't decorated the nursery. So either Cindy was operating under the baby is being given up for adoption and we are just going to deny any of this ever happened OR she had a plan for how to explain the sudden appearance of a baby a couple of months later. Was she going to tell people her and George adopted a newborn? Well, you guys were right, Casey was pregnant, silly me?

And George just standing by and letting this little charade go down. I know it is because George is seen as a sympathetic figure, a victim of Cindy, but he makes me absolutely insane. He is such a contributor to this family pathology. He is a crucial and required piece of the puzzle. And every bit as pathological as Cindy and Casey. He just wraps it up in a more palatable package than the pitbull does.
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