8 Die in Crash on Taconic State Parkway #2

[RR0004]

Originally Posted by ElizaAvalon

No one knows for sure. However, it is fairly easy to wind up heading north on the Saw Mill if one is not paying very close attention. The exit for the Saw Mill South is the same exit as well as another road (Rte 119? I forget) and if you hug the right lane through that exit, you wind up north instead of south. I've almost done it myself once or twice. Once you are on the Saw Mill going north, you need to get off and go south and she probably got off and wound up on Pleasantville Rd.

Wouldn't she have wanted to take 87 south? The new "redirection" of highways after you pass through the tolls is VERY confusing.

[CatMama3]

Originally Posted by Salem

I should have clarified - my friend does not have children. His girlfriends are smart enough not to let their children ride with him. My family members no longer have small children. I really think my comment was more wishful thinking. After I thought about it, I realized that children don't ride with them, not because they won't allow it, but because OTHERS won't allow it.

And no, I would not have considered her more responsible if she had driven solo but killed persons in another car. I think this woman is completely and totally responsible for what happened. I cut her no slack. I am horrified by this. My problem is that I can not wrap my mind around what happened. I can not understand how she took the first drink. I can not understand how she could put those kids in the car and then proceed to get drunk. Why didn't she say - I don't feel good - you take the kids. I'm gonna stop for some medicine? Would that have made her more responsible if she hit the other car - no! But, I understand how people don't think about the innocents in the other car. I understand how someone might say "its only me" without giving a thought to who is coming down the road. I don't understand how you load the car up with kids and continue to think "its only me."

I make no excuses for this woman. She did what she did and others are suffering greatly for it. Very sad.

Salem

respectfully snipped by me

Your friend can't see his addiction and the havoc it could wreak, but thankfully others around him can. They see that he is truly an accident waiting to happen, and they don't want their children anywhere near him when it does happen. This is what makes me think that neither Daniel Shuler nor Warren Hance had ANY idea that Diane was an addict. They trusted her with their children. I cannot imagine a greater betrayal.

That being said, Diane would have likely been drinking on the drive home whether she felt great or she felt awful. Because the truth is, the disease of addiction tells the addict that they don't have a problem. The only thing that matters is getting a fix, whether it's vodka in a McD's large OJ or a bump of cocaine. Her purported abcessed tooth is irrelevant. She may have been looking to buy a pain reliever to help with her tooth, but she would have probably been drinking anyway. She needed a fix. And in her addict's mind, she could knock back some vodka to ease her mouth pain, take the edge off, tune out the five kids in the car, whatever, and still be fine to drive.

I have a dear friend who has been in recovery nearly twenty years, and I've picked his brain over all those years to get a better understanding of addiction. And sometimes, when my mind is blown about why an addict would do something so stupid, or dangerous, or possibly fatal, he can only tell me to be glad I don't understand.

I'm certainly not making excuses for her behavior, or giving her a pass because she had a "disease". She destroyed countless lives. I'm just trying to provide some insight about how she act in such a monstrous way but not be a monster.

[RR0004]

Originally Posted by southcitymom

I don't know this area at all.

I know she was headed to her brother's house and I think she left the TappanZee and meandered to the Taconic to take a route home that her brother (who was coming to find her) wouldn't take to get to her. She was, as we know, quite drunk by this time, so her thinking may not have been the clearest.

She wasn't anywhere close to "heading" home, though.

[JBean]

Originally Posted by RR0004

She just wasn't a little bit off track...she was way off track.
Thanks, JB.

zackly.In more ways than one.

[Melanie]

Originally Posted by tamfish

I've been following this fairly close, but have not posted anything about it until today. I keep going back and forth with theories, thoughts and questions.

If the timeline quoted is correct - and I assume it is, since it has been reported this way in numerous places - am I correct to believe that DS consumed the equivalent of 10 shots of alcohol over the course of about 48 minutes? (12:08 "normal conversation" to 12:56 "there's something wrong with Diane")

Is that even physically possible? And if so, how long does it take the liquor to enter your bloodstream and spike your BAC?

When is it theorized that she smoked the pot? When stopped for one of those phone calls?

I still don't know what I think happened. It doesn't really make sense to me. I sometimes wonder if she was possessed by the Devil himself.........

Thank you - I don't get the timeline either. How do you drink 10 shots while driving (or the equivalent to). A part of me still wants to think there was something else going on with her -- I just can't make any sense out of it.

Mel

[Lexington]

Originally Posted by mgardner

Thank you - I don't get the timeline either. How do you drink 10 shots while driving (or the equivalent to). A part of me still wants to think there was something else going on with her -- I just can't make any sense out of it.

Mel

I can't even imagine a raging alcoholic sitting alone in the house swilling down 10 shots of vodka in under an hour, much less a woman driving a car with 5 children in tow, stopping for breakfast, shopping for pain meds, filling up the car, making and taking cell phone calls and smoking a joint. It simply does not make any sense that she inadvertently drank too much, that the alcohol hit her differently that day, etc. I agree with you that something else was going on with her.

[annmarie62]

Originally Posted by tapu

Well, this alcoholic says: nobody starts drinking by downing 10 shots while on the road with kids on a Sunday morning.

Hardcore drinking behavior. Classic.

ita!!

[Wonder]

Originally Posted by Salem

Is there any information on where the booze came from? A credit or debit receipt showing the purchase? Did she pack it in the van at the campground - was it left over from the camping activities? She could have started drinking before McDonalds and was just not showing it yet.

Salem

If there was a credit card charge for the liquor, you can be sure that Schuler's personal investigator was not going to make that public. So the only other investigator would be the LE and I have not heard of any kind of receipts of that type (but they may not be publicizing it at this time). I guess it would come out at the civil trail, but there will be no criminal trail (based on recent news). Comments?

I agree, she was drinking early in the trip.

[southcitymom]

Originally Posted by Salem

Is there any information on where the booze came from? A credit or debit receipt showing the purchase? Did she pack it in the van at the campground - was it left over from the camping activities? She could have started drinking before McDonalds and was just not showing it yet.

Salem

I don't think I have read anything stating that we KNOW where the booze came from. I believe she had it with her - bought it with her to the weekend - because she had planned to do some drinking on the ride back.

I do believe the hubby said the bottle of Absolut found at the collision site was their bottle that they carried back and forth on weekend camping trips, so it could have been from that bottle or she could have had an additional stash.

[southcitymom]

Originally Posted by RR0004

She wasn't anywhere close to "heading" home, though.

But she was certainly heading AWAY from the direction her brother was coming!

And obviously, she was confused and lost - Emma had reported that in an earlier phone call to her Dad.

[southcitymom]

Originally Posted by Lexington

I can't even imagine a raging alcoholic sitting alone in the house swilling down 10 shots of vodka in under an hour, much less a woman driving a car with 5 children in tow, stopping for breakfast, shopping for pain meds, filling up the car, making and taking cell phone calls and smoking a joint. It simply does not make any sense that she inadvertently drank too much, that the alcohol hit her differently that day, etc. I agree with you that something else was going on with her.

Addiction doesn't make sense to non-addicts, because addiction is soundly based in insanity and selfishness.

However, when I was using and parenting, there were a number of times when I inadvertantly used too much while caring for my kids (to include driving them wherever they needed to go) as well as times that the substance I used hit me differently on a given day, so I understand how that could happen to her. It has happened to me and a number of other addicts.

[SleuthyMama]

Originally Posted by Wonder

If there was a credit card charge for the liquor, you can be sure that Schuler's personal investigator was not going to make that public. So the only other investigator would be the LE and I have not heard of any kind of receipts of that type (but they may not be publicizing it at this time). I guess it would come out at the civil trail, but there will be no criminal trail (based on recent news). Comments?

I agree, she was drinking early in the trip.

Because the first thread is closed, I will repeat this again for the sake of any who missed it before. I am almost positive DS would have had to have the alcohol with her as on Sundays in NYS alcohol cannot be purchased prior to 12 PM and it must be purchased (any day of the week) from a liquor store.

After 12 PM on Sunday she would have only been able to purchase beer/wine coolers at a convenience store.

[tapu]

Two things I was thinking about, that are semi-related to questions raised by non-alcoholics here. (Hee-hee, "non-alcoholics." That's funny.)

Anyway, one is that I know I often made drinks in a way that I could hide them and then not been able to guess accurately how much alcohol I had in them, hence, I did not know how much I was consuming. Example: I used to go to my kids' softball games at 9 in the morning with a travel coffee cup full of root beer and vodka. Root beer was a great disguiser: who would suspect someone would drink root beer and vodka?? Besides, the smell was harder to recognize than it is in o.j. When I got about halfway down in the cup, I'd slip back to the car, get my bottle from under the front seat and fill up again. Who knows how much I consumed those times?


The other thing that I thought might help a little with people understanding how anyone could drink so much in a short time: I've thought about how, if you put 6-10 gin and tonics in front of me, I know I could get them down me pretty fast. BUT, if you took out the alcohol and expected me to drink that much tonic--no way. I couldn't drink 6-10 glasses of water! Of anything! Unless it has that magic alcohol in it. For an alcoholic like me, it is as if alcohol were made of my same substance, the substance of my body. My body craves it like others' crave water.

[southcitymom]

I can't fully express how much I appreciate all of the honesty on this thread and all of the different viewpoints. Once again, I am overwhelmed at the level of respect Websleuthers are able to keep when discussing extremely emotional subjects. Much credit needs to be given to the owner and the Mods for helping maintain such an amazing, special corner of the Web.

Like Tapu, I feel like it has been really beneficial for me to consider the questions and perspectives of non-addicts. It has been especially intriguing to find out that if I had wound up doing what DS wound up doing, there would be people (maybe even people close to me) who would think I was suicidal/homicidal, even though I have never felt like that - even at the apex of my addiction.

Obviously, my theories about what might have happened that day are filtered through my personal experiences with hidden using. I can't help but feel very connected to DS. As the child of an alcoholic parent who often drove me when he was drunk, I connect strongly with Emma and the other little girls. As a parent, I connect with Diane's husband and the Vances. As someone who dearly loves my family and our routine get-togethers, I connect with the Bastardis. I see myself in all of these people and so this case breaks my heart everywhere I turn.

I was PMing with a friend here last night and we were talking a little about how we might learn from this unimaginable tragedy. If any "good" can be found here, maybe it can be found in our willingness to open our eyes and our ears and our hearts and share honestly from our own lives in a re-examination of what we think we know about addiction.

[Sal]

I just wasted time writing a post and then to find I'd been logged out. Sheesh, I'd just logged in to post. What the?

[annmarie62]

Originally Posted by Sal

I just wasted time writing a post and then to find I'd been logged out. Sheesh, I'd just logged in to post. What the?

I KNOW, RIGHT?!!! This happens to me all the time, and I DO know enough to click on "remember me?" button... aaaaannnnnd- my 'sig' added a colon where quote marks should go... weird! ETA- sig is fine now!

[southcitymom]

Originally Posted by Sal

I just wasted time writing a post and then to find I'd been logged out. Sheesh, I'd just logged in to post. What the?

That's rotten. Has it happened to you before here? It has happened to me before but not in a long time. It might have to do with a setting on your computer - There is a technical forum here where someone can probably tell you how to fix it if it's your computer and not the site. Also, Adnoid is very handy with all that stuff - you could shoot him a PM.

[JBean]

Originally Posted by Sal

I just wasted time writing a post and then to find I'd been logged out. Sheesh, I'd just logged in to post. What the?

I do a few things to avoid that:
1. click the remember me box at sign in
2. go ahead and log in, the post is often still there.
3. push the back button and the post is sometimes still there.
4. as a matter of habit, if it is a long or particularly brilliant post I highlight and copy before I hit submit. Then if it is gone, I can just paste into the new text box. It's a good habit because ya never know when there is going to be any kind of a little hiccup or glitch.

[Sal]

JBean, ALL my posts are brilliant, whether long or short! And southcitymom, yes, it happens all the time. I'll give these hints a whirl that you posted JBean. I just want y'all to know that in my lengthy and rambling posts I had solved every one of this world's probs, but lo and behold, it was gone in a POOF! and things are right back to the way they were!

[JBean]

Originally Posted by sal

jbean, all my posts are brilliant, whether long or short! and southcitymom, yes, it happens all the time. I'll give these hints a whirl that you posted jbean. I just want y'all to know that in my lengthy and rambling posts i had solved every one of this world's probs, but lo and behold, it was gone in a poof! And things are right back to the way they were!

damn!

[Sal]

Shoot, I just wanna thank y'all for giving me the old what for on how to better stay logged in. I'm staying so logged in that I don't know if it'll even let me log out. This is the kinda logged in I am talkin bout!

[tapu]

I have hesitated to bring up the perspective on alcoholism in the following article, but I would guess it's been on more minds than just my own as we explore the many issues and implications of the extended topic of this thread.

Anyway, here is this:

http://www.longislandpress.com/2009/...ably-was-sick/

[Wonder]

Originally Posted by SleuthyMama

Because the first thread is closed, I will repeat this again for the sake of any who missed it before. I am almost positive DS would have had to have the alcohol with her as on Sundays in NYS alcohol cannot be purchased prior to 12 PM and it must be purchased (any day of the week) from a liquor store.

After 12 PM on Sunday she would have only been able to purchase beer/wine coolers at a convenience store.

You are right, stupid me...........when I drank I always made sure that I had some stash available. So she did have it tucked away (probably in multiple places) just in case.

[southcitymom]

Originally Posted by tapu

I have hesitated to bring up the perspective on alcoholism in the following article, but I would guess it's been on more minds than just my own as we explore the many issues and implications of the extended topic of this thread.

Anyway, here is this:

http://www.longislandpress.com/2009/...ably-was-sick/

Excerpt from this excellent article:

"But here’s the other thing that’s obvious: Our collective response confirms that we still don’t see alcoholism and addiction as a disease, but rather as an indulgence and moral failure. The American Medical Association accepted alcoholism as a disease almost 50 years ago and research over the course of the last decade has thoroughly detailed the complex neurobiology of addiction, yet we still see addicts as simply making a series of poor choices."

I love the whole disease/moral failure debate, and it might be time to explore it more fully. Would people have been calling for DS's head on a platter (or her soul to roast in Hell) if she'd had a stroke or a heart attack and caused this collision? Nope - we'd feel like she was the victim of a tragic medical condition, a disease. Many of us are not willing to extend the same level of empathy when we find out the disease she was most likely suffering from was addiction.

As a society, we attach a moral value to addiction that we do not attach to, say, cancer or diabetes. It's pretty fascinating.

[JBean]

Originally Posted by southcitymom

Excerpt from this excellent article:

"But here’s the other thing that’s obvious: Our collective response confirms that we still don’t see alcoholism and addiction as a disease, but rather as an indulgence and moral failure. The American Medical Association accepted alcoholism as a disease almost 50 years ago and research over the course of the last decade has thoroughly detailed the complex neurobiology of addiction, yet we still see addicts as simply making a series of poor choices."

I love the whole disease/moral failure debate, and it might be time to explore it more fully. Would people have been calling for DS's head on a platter (or her soul to roast in Hell) if she'd had a stroke or a heart attack and caused this collision? Nope - we'd feel like she was the victim of a tragic medical condition, a disease. Many of us are not willing to extend the same level of empathy when we find out the disease she was most likely suffering from was addiction.

As a society, we attach a moral value to addiction that we do not attach to, say, cancer or diabetes. It's pretty fascinating.

Having a heart attack while driving is not illegal, but driving drunk is and that is a big part of this.Most that suffer from other diseases seek help and medical counsel, but DS did not, so I am personally less sympathetic.

ETA: I should add that I have first hand understanding of addiction.