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JonBenet Ramsey What really happened to 6 year old JonBenet? Someone is getting away with murder. All information posted on this site is gained through published documentation on this case. It is strictly opinion only.


View Poll Results: Are the Ramseys involved or not?
The Ramseys are somehow involved in the crime and/or cover-up 742 73.83%
The Ramseys are not involved at all in the crime or cover-up 263 26.17%
Voters: 1005. You may not vote on this poll

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  #701  
Old 03-13-2009, 04:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Holdontoyourhat View Post
The RDI catalog? Well, lets start with allowing the cord and tape to appear on the scene, as if there were proof it was ever even owned by the R's.
There's a very interesting story there. Allow me. ST, pb, page 237:

The Ramsey credit card purchases showed up again, this time through the mail anonymously from a tabloid newspaper to Sergeant Wickman. There were copies of purchase records from marine supply depots, hardware stores, and boating retailers in Charlevoix, Atlanta, and Boulder during 1996. Any of these places could have sold duct tape and cord. It was an investigator's dream come true--a paper trail.
Wickman and I took it in to Bob Keatley for a legal opinion, and he almost had a heart attack. His exact words were most un-Keatley-like--s**t! s**t! s**t!--and he snatched the documents away. "Put it out of your mind," he ordered, imagining how a defense lawyer would do an OJ-style "Police Planted the Glove" on us.


Remember what I said about the DA's office screwing up this case?

Quote:
While we're at it, lets allow the unknown male DNA evidence found in three places on two articles of clothing JBR was wearing at the time she was murdered, to be transferred there innocently by someone JBR came in contact with THAT SAME DAY, that LE is ALSO coincidentally unable to find.
Unable? Did it ever occur to you that maybe they were not ALLOWED to get to them? And who SAYS it had to be that same day. Given the general condition of the DNA, I'd say chances were greater that it wasn't from that day.

Quote:
Lets also add a Jekyll & Hyde child murdering personality inside one of JBR's parents for only one night. All the other nights A-OK.
1) I might agree with you IF we were talking about premeditated murder, or even an intent to kill. I don't know about everyone else, but I don't believe there was that intent.

2) Another thing to keep in mind: think what the story of Jekyll & Hyde tells us: the suppressed evil in all of us being unleashed, despite the best efforts to suppress it. We're talking about a person who was taught by her parents and many others since childhood to do just that: suppress it. Always smile. Act like nothing's wrong. Heck, growing up with parents like Nedra and Don Paugh would make a killer out of ME!

3) We have an eyewitness who has told us a million times that PR had a very bitter anger underneath the facade.

4) Moreover, we have the police account. ST, pb, page 359:
Patsy looked like a woman teetering on the edge. Her demeanor did not contradict my hypothesis of what happened that night.

Page 366:
She grew animated and exhausted on the third day. Instead of a teary victim, I saw an agitated and curt woman. I saw the Southern belle vanish.

Page 367:
Tom Haney, with his no-nonsense style had found something I felt had to be there not too far beneath that polished beauty queen surface. Patsy Ramsey had, for a few moments, lifted her mask.

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It is interesting all the felonies taking place that one night, in word and deed. Conspiracy to murder with special circumstances, conspiracy to mass murder, kidnapping, extortion, murder with special circumstances, sexual assault on a child, aggravated assault on a child. And yet, not even a misdemeanor jaywalking can be produced either before or after the crime.
Felonies implies intent, though. BTW, you left out obstruction of justice, evidence tampering and making false statements.

Quote:
You're asking me to believe the criminality meter goes from zero to infinity and back to zero in 24 hours. I don't think it works that way.
No, we're asking you to believe that they were flawed people, just like the rest of us, pushed to the limits we all hate to admit we have, who didn't feel like there was any way out and let their imaginations run away with them. Whether you do believe that or not is your own business. But do so honestly.

It's a farce and a tragedy, HOTYH. It's not the epic "good vs. evil" story that the Rs have made it out to be. I think Josef Goebbels said it best: never tell a little lie when you can tell a big lie.
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Last edited by SuperDave; 03-13-2009 at 07:47 PM.
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  #702  
Old 03-13-2009, 05:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Mendara View Post
I should have said I don't think a parent like Patsy would go that far
And just what "kind" of parent would that be?
Mendara, I think it's helpful to remember that I think she went that far BECAUSE of the kind of person she was. And not only me. The chief prosecutor said it best, and I quote:

It was a very theatrical production and Patsy's a very theatrical person. She loves being known as the mother of a dead beauty queen.

Whatever that tells you.

Quote:
- i know parents do terrible things to their children - but the theory that Patsy snapped and caused the bash in her head and then staged the strangulation is what I can't picture
I sympathize, Mendara; I really do. For a long time I couldn't picture it, either.

Quote:
- she wasn't an abusive mother
We don't know that. But even if true, that statement would be meaningful only if there was an INTENT to kill, and therein lies the rub, Mendara. I think you've fallen into that trap. I don't believe there was an intent to kill. I don't think she knew what she was doing.

Quote:
- never hit JB - there are not reports of her being hit correct?
No OFFICIAL reports. But the housekeeper said that Patsy hit JB several times. PLUS, we have photos of JB with angry-looking bruises in a place where Patsy was known to grab her. PLUS, we have the testimony of Dr. Richard Krugman that JB's vaginal injuries were caused by violent punishment. Take it for what it's worth.

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Why would she just used her clothing to strangle her
You'll have to forgive me if I don't quite understand what you mean.

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- why use a method that is known as a sexual sadistic method?
Many of us think she did NOT know it was a sexual sadistic method. My research turns up nothing to support the claim that a garrote is the favored weapon of pedophiles.

But moreover, remember what I said to you earlier? One, because it allows the killer to kill without directly touching the victim. There's a LOT of that going on here: the garrote allows no direct contact; using the paintbrush to violate her allows no direct contact, etc. Don't forget: JB was strangled face-down. The killer couldn't even look her in the face. That MEANS something to me.

Two, as I mentioned earlier, it's a clean method. It doesn't make a bloody mess. Thus, it's easier on the killer's conscience (less "real" that way), AND it runs far less risk of blood turning up on the killer's body and clothing.

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Thanks for responding to me.
No problem. Glad to do it.
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Last edited by SuperDave; 03-13-2009 at 07:49 PM.
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  #703  
Old 03-13-2009, 05:48 PM
Tadpole12 Tadpole12 is offline
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Originally Posted by SuperDave View Post
Two, as I mentioned earlier, it's a clean method. It doesn't make a bloody mess. Thus, it's easier on the killer's conscience (less "real" that way), AND it runs far less risk of blood turning up on the killer's body and clothing.
a mercy kill.
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  #704  
Old 03-13-2009, 07:39 PM
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a mercy kill.
Ah, it's been interpreted that way, Tadpole. But not exactly. A mercy kill implies the person knew JB was still alive, knew she was going to die and wanted to ease her passing. I don't think that happened here. Although, it would explain a lot!

It might be more apt to say that it was more merciful for the killer.
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  #705  
Old 03-13-2009, 07:50 PM
Holdontoyourhat Holdontoyourhat is offline
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No, we're asking you to believe that they were flawed people, just like the rest of us, pushed to the limits we all hate to admit we have, who didn't feel like there was any way out and let their imaginations run away with them. Whether you do believe that or not is your own business.
Uh, no. I don't think so, SuperDave. I am actually surprised to be reading this.

There are NO circumstances where someone gets pushed to the limits, that 'everyone has' then murders a child, and are then refered to as 'flawed people'. Thats an understatement, to be sure. It goes with a consistent RDI pattern of sugar coating and understating the brutality that went along with the murder of JBR.

She wasnt murdered by a person with a flaw that 'we all hate to admit we have'. JBR was murdered by a deeply mentally disturbed person, who Tadpole probably correctly classified as disorganized. Thats why you can't make heads or tails out of kidnapping, sexual assault, turned murder.
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  #706  
Old 03-13-2009, 08:02 PM
Holdontoyourhat Holdontoyourhat is offline
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Originally Posted by SuperDave View Post
There's a very interesting story there. Allow me. ST, pb, page 237:

The Ramsey credit card purchases showed up again, this time through the mail anonymously from a tabloid newspaper to Sergeant Wickman. There were copies of purchase records from marine supply depots, hardware stores, and boating retailers in Charlevoix, Atlanta, and Boulder during 1996. Any of these places could have sold duct tape and cord. It was an investigator's dream come true--a paper trail.
Wickman and I took it in to Bob Keatley for a legal opinion, and he almost had a heart attack. His exact words were most un-Keatley-like--s**t! s**t! s**t!--and he snatched the documents away. "Put it out of your mind," he ordered, imagining how a defense lawyer would do an OJ-style "Police Planted the Glove" on us.
The tabloid 'indictment' of the R's was not met with enough lawsuits, thats for sure.

Suppose your 6-8 year old daughter dresses up with lipstick, etc., for a Holloween party where photographs are taken, under the context of a simple holloween party.

Suppose that sometime later, photos of your daughter with lipstick is published nationally, for distribution in supermarkets, alongside suggestive captions and photos of adult males who had nothing to do with your daughter in reality. A somewhat different context, no?

What would YOU do, SuperDave?
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  #707  
Old 03-13-2009, 08:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Holdontoyourhat View Post
Uh, no. I don't think so, SuperDave. I am actually surprised to be reading this.
Given the way you usually interpret what I mean, that's no great shock.

Quote:
There are NO circumstances where someone gets pushed to the limits, that 'everyone has' then murders a child, and are then refered to as 'flawed people'.
You'd have to understand where I'm coming from. (I'm not holding my breath.)

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Thats an understatement, to be sure.
You're twisting what I meant.

Quote:
It goes with a consistent RDI pattern of sugar coating and understating the brutality that went along with the murder of JBR.
You're blaming a phenomenon that does not exist for a viewpoint you are not interested in understanding. I don't know what this pattern of "sugarcoating" and "understating brutality" is that you're talking about. I don't sugarcoat anything, in case you haven't noticed. I can't count the number of times I've boiled this one down and come out feeling like there isn't enough soap in the world to get me clean again. I wish I COULD sugarcoat it!

Quote:
JBR was murdered by a deeply mentally disturbed person, who Tadpole probably correctly classified as disorganized.
HOTYH, I've been saying for AGES that the killer was disorganized and mentally disturbed! Just what kind of Mickey-Mouse operation am I supposed to be running here?

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Thats why you can't make heads or tails out of kidnapping, sexual assault, turned murder.
Why I can't make heads or tails out if it?
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  #708  
Old 03-13-2009, 08:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Holdontoyourhat View Post
The tabloid 'indictment' of the R's was not met with enough lawsuits, thats for sure.
You let on more than I wish to know. Moreover, you dodged the point.

Quote:
Suppose your 6-8 year old daughter dresses up with lipstick, etc., for a Halloween party where photographs are taken, under the context of a simple Halloween party.
You can't seriously be comparing that to these shows so laughingly referred to as "beauty pageants?" I should hope you would have at least THAT much respect for my intelligence.

Quote:
Suppose that sometime later, photos of your daughter with lipstick is published nationally, for distribution in supermarkets, alongside suggestive captions and photos of adult males who had nothing to do with your daughter in reality. A somewhat different context, no?
I'll say it's a different context! Much different than what we're discussing!

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What would YOU do, SuperDave?
Just what is THAT supposed to mean?
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  #709  
Old 03-13-2009, 08:59 PM
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Originally Posted by SuperDave View Post
Ah, it's been interpreted that way, Tadpole. But not exactly. A mercy kill implies the person knew JB was still alive, knew she was going to die and wanted to ease her passing. I don't think that happened here. Although, it would explain a lot!

It might be more apt to say that it was more merciful for the killer.
ya. Just thinking under what circumstances the maternal instinct becomes capable of killing, or suffocating, strangling, desecrating. Life and death choices.
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  #710  
Old 03-13-2009, 09:03 PM
Holdontoyourhat Holdontoyourhat is offline
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ya. Just thinking under what circumstances the maternal instinct becomes capable of killing, or suffocating, strangling, desecrating. Life and death choices.
I can answer that one. Socioeconomic.

The majority of filicides are accompanied by socioeconomic factors. None of which are present in the case of JBR.
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  #711  
Old 03-13-2009, 09:05 PM
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ya. Just thinking under what circumstances the maternal instinct becomes capable of killing, or suffocating, strangling, desecrating. Life and death choices.
I get you. And for all I know, that may be the case.
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  #712  
Old 03-13-2009, 09:06 PM
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I'll say it's a different context! Much different than what we're discussing!


Its the exact same circumstance, SD.

JBR's lipstick photos were taken in the context of a child beauty pageant, an activity that YOU apparently believe is immoral, decadent, or whatever, and would thus get you kicked off the jury.

These photos were taken in one context, and then broadcast nationally alongside adult males who never had contact with JBR, and suggestive captions. It is child exploitation because profit was made from child photos placed in a sexual context that otherwise did not exist.
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  #713  
Old 03-13-2009, 09:09 PM
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  #714  
Old 03-13-2009, 09:29 PM
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I'm reading ST's deposition http://www.acandyrose.com/09212001thomas-depo.htm and it sure does take you back to the bare bones of this case. .
Wonder how much evidence was not developed or tested?
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  #715  
Old 03-13-2009, 09:36 PM
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I think the DNA was developed and tested. It belongs to a male and was transferred onto JBR's clothing the night she was murdered. The male is not a family member, or a dinner guest. The R's were cleared as a result of this testing.
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  #716  
Old 03-13-2009, 09:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Holdontoyourhat View Post
I can answer that one. Socioeconomic.

The majority of filicides are accompanied by socioeconomic factors. None of which are present in the case of JBR.
Hi Hotyh. You must be kinda psychic, cuz I was just thinking about infant mortality rates, the expressed differential between pops and socioeconomic religious factors = smothering.
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  #717  
Old 03-13-2009, 09:52 PM
Tadpole12 Tadpole12 is offline
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Originally Posted by Holdontoyourhat View Post
I think the DNA was developed and tested. It belongs to a male and was transferred onto JBR's clothing the night she was murdered. The male is not a family member, or a dinner guest. The R's were cleared as a result of this testing.
Oh. now Hotyh, you know what I mean? ... you've read all those CW vs Ramsey depos ..... I know ST's dodging legal q's but at least from what I gather from ST vagueness a lot of evidence can still be developed .....exculpatory? for the R's .... even?
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  #718  
Old 03-13-2009, 09:52 PM
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Its the exact same circumstance, SD.
The hell it is! A Halloween costume is something a child does once a year for their pleasure. A child in the beauty pageant circuit is paraded before adults BY other adults on a regular basis and is TRAINED by adults to preform for adults. Give me a break.

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JBR's lipstick photos were taken in the context of a child beauty pageant,
Exactly!

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an activity that YOU apparently believe is immoral, decadent, or whatever,
I believe it's all that and then some. Not ONLY me.

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and would thus get you kicked off the jury.
Why would it get me kicked off the jury? I wouldn't be trying pageants, I'd be trying a killing.

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These photos were taken in one context, and then broadcast nationally alongside adult males who never had contact with JBR, and suggestive captions. It is child exploitation
Damn skippy! Doesn't stop JR from selling copies of those pageant tapes, though!

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because profit was made from child photos placed in a sexual context that otherwise did not exist.
My head hurts.
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  #719  
Old 03-13-2009, 10:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Tadpole12 View Post
Hi Hotyh. You must be kinda psychic, cuz I was just thinking about infant mortality rates, the expressed differential between pops and socioeconomic religious factors = smothering.
Just remember, Tadpole: when a child is killed, the odds are 12 to 1 in favor of a parent.

Another thing to remember is how the majority of filicides are solved.
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  #720  
Old 03-13-2009, 11:42 PM
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Its a critical piece of evidence because it basically was the murder weapon. Its widely reported that this critical evidence can't be factually sourced to the house. Not only that, the tape ALSO cannot be factually sourced to the house. No other use was found. To suppose that the R's owned them simply because most people have random bits of cord and tape is a generalization. Its like saying the R's killed their daughter because sometimes parents kill kids.





Nope because they just walked that evidence right on out of there, right past everyone.. Right under LE's noses..

Patsy that is !

Ane what about Patsy's frames to hang her paintings ? What do they hang with ?

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  #721  
Old 03-14-2009, 10:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Tadpole12 View Post
I'm reading ST's deposition http://www.acandyrose.com/09212001thomas-depo.htm and it sure does take you back to the bare bones of this case. .
Wonder how much evidence was not developed or tested?
I can answer that. On the show "48 Hours", they had a 10 year anniversary special on JB's death. On the show, they said that there was a "warehouse full of evidence that had not been tested". So...in other words...theres ALOT!
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  #722  
Old 03-14-2009, 12:30 PM
Holdontoyourhat Holdontoyourhat is offline
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Oh. now Hotyh, you know what I mean? ... you've read all those CW vs Ramsey depos ..... I know ST's dodging legal q's but at least from what I gather from ST vagueness a lot of evidence can still be developed .....exculpatory? for the R's .... even?
Very funny. Your post seems to imply that there could be something exculpatory found for the R's, when the R's are already cleared by evidence.

Maybe you didn't hear the news. It is really big news for the JBR murder. Turns out, the EXPERTS believe an intruder did it. The circumstances of the DNA make it a certainty to belong to JBR's assailant, and not RDI's old factory worker. It is so certain as to allow those investigating to declare the R's innocent.

The RDI answer for the DNA had to be modified from a factory worker to a new story, because RDI's factory worker idea was disproven.
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  #723  
Old 03-14-2009, 12:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Holdontoyourhat View Post
Very funny. Your post seems to imply that there could be something exculpatory found for the R's, when the R's are already cleared by evidence.

Maybe you didn't hear the news. It is really big news for the JBR murder. Turns out, the EXPERTS believe an intruder did it. The circumstances of the DNA make it a certainty to belong to JBR's assailant, and not RDI's old factory worker. It is so certain as to allow those investigating to declare the R's innocent.
Really? Last I heard, they have been UNcleared...and the case has been re-open. You haven't heard? Because it's really big news.
Edited to add...The Rams have ALWAYS been under an "umbrella of suspicion", MARY LACY is the ONLY person that has cleared them.
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  #724  
Old 03-14-2009, 12:45 PM
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Really? Last I heard, they have been UNcleared...and the case has been re-open. You haven't heard? Because it's really big news.
Edited to add...The Rams have ALWAYS been under an "umbrella of suspicion", MARY LACY is the ONLY person that has cleared them.
http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/02/02/...ref=newssearch

Most recent CNN story, says case is transferred from DA to BPD. Nowhere is mentioned 'uncleared' as you stated. Also nowhere is mentioned 'reopened', as the case has never been closed. The story DOES say that investigators 'EXHONORATED' the R's last year. NOWHERE does it say "UNEXONERATED". Its possible RDI is reading things into the news that aren't even there. BPD is now following up on leads, thats all.
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  #725  
Old 03-14-2009, 03:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Holdontoyourhat View Post
http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/02/02/...ref=newssearch

Most recent CNN story, says case is transferred from DA to BPD. Nowhere is mentioned 'uncleared' as you stated. Also nowhere is mentioned 'reopened', as the case has never been closed. The story DOES say that investigators 'EXHONORATED' the R's last year. NOWHERE does it say "UNEXONERATED". Its possible RDI is reading things into the news that aren't even there. BPD is now following up on leads, thats all.
I saw a press conference about this, and it was stated that the Ramsey's were NOT cleared. They are looking at ALL possibilities.


JonBenet Ramsey case reopened

By Alysia Patterson, THE ASSOCIATED PRESS



Police will handle the investigation as a cold case, "reviewing everything that's been done, the evidence that's been collected, trying to determine where do we go from here," he said. (HO)


Images: Cold Case Files
BOULDER, Colo. - The slaying of JonBenet Ramsey will be investigated as a cold case with all evidence and actions taken 12 years ago reviewed anew, the police chief said Monday, as the department resumed a probe for which it had long been criticized

SNIPPED>>

Beckner told the Camera newspaper of Boulder the task force will "explore all possible theories about what happened the night JonBenet was killed" and added, "We are open to all possibilities."
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