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JonBenet Ramsey What really happened to 6 year old JonBenet? Someone is getting away with murder. All information posted on this site is gained through published documentation on this case. It is strictly opinion only.


View Poll Results: Are the Ramseys involved or not?
The Ramseys are somehow involved in the crime and/or cover-up 742 73.83%
The Ramseys are not involved at all in the crime or cover-up 263 26.17%
Voters: 1005. You may not vote on this poll

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  #926  
Old 03-25-2009, 02:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Holdontoyourhat View Post
Even though I'm SFF all the way, I agree with your post. There was no terror and bedlam, as foreign factions go. JR wasn't really a huge 'fat cat' anyway, and 118K seems almost an insulting amount.

I've never thought money was a motivator, because SFF had to be very well financed to bother with this sort of thing. IOW if SFF, then their budget probably ran over 118K anyway.
If money was not the motivate, then why would a SFF have even bothered? If the SFF budget would have been more than the requested amount in the RN, then what was the purpose? Why would a SFF even target JR's daughter? There are many other people in the USA worth alot more than JR and much more well known, so why JR? How would they have even known JR or that he had a young daughter? How would kidnapping JBR serve this SFF? Most importantly, why has this SFF not struck again? Why no more kidnappings or murders? Did they disband? What did this SFF gain by the kidnapping/murder of JBR? No group to date has come forth admitting to the crime. Don't terrorist groups admit to crimes such as this to create terror and insure that their demands are met? Lastly, if this SFF was so financed and organized that they came into the US specifically to kidnap JR's daughter, then why was she not kidnapped? Why was JBR not held for ransom? Why was she fed pineapple before her murder? Why did this SFF remain in the home for such a long time? Why not just in and out? I'm sorry, but try as I may, I'm just not buying the SFF or the RN. Doesn't make any sense to me and never will. Too Hollywood to be true. Strictly fiction, written by someone pretending to be someone that they knew nothing about, but thought they did.
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  #927  
Old 03-25-2009, 05:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Holdontoyourhat View Post
Even though I'm SFF all the way, I agree with your post. There was no terror and bedlam, as foreign factions go. JR wasn't really a huge 'fat cat' anyway, and 118K seems almost an insulting amount.

I've never thought money was a motivator, because SFF had to be very well financed to bother with this sort of thing. IOW if SFF, then their budget probably ran over 118K anyway.
C'mon, Holdon, not even the Ramseys believed that the SFF existed. Patsy for example theorized about "the" killer who might have confided in one other person. - this train of thought goes completely against any SFF group setting.
The same goes for Lou Smit; he too always spoke of one lone sexual predator.

The note was a fake, Holdon. From whichever angle one looks at it, this is what stands out.
The meager 118k is a joke of a sum, the "we respect your business" babble borders on the comical, the "scanned for electronic devices" is blatant nonsense, etc. etc.
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  #928  
Old 03-25-2009, 07:11 AM
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Originally Posted by tac1970 View Post
Link to pdf of district attorney's letter to the Ramseys apologizing to them, and stating that their family has been "vindicated".
http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/msnbc/Se...s/ramseyDA.pdf
Well, since the new DA has said otherwise, that letter means even nothing more now than it did when KennanLacyTracey whipped it up. Unfortunately, she thought that DA stood for Dumbass!
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  #929  
Old 03-25-2009, 11:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Holdontoyourhat View Post
That one got me. I don't even know what that means.
"Not Without My Daughter" is a movie about a mother whose husband dumps her, kidnaps their daughter and takes her back to Islamist Iran, which does not recognize American law, so she has to take drastic measures to get the girl back. It's a real phenomenon, HOTYH; Americans marry foreign spouses, have children, the marriage goes sour, the foreign spouse grabs the kid(s) and goes back to their home country where there's no treaties, so the American parent has to have special forces units grab the kid(s) back in covert operations.

I thought EVERYONE knew "Not Without My Daughter!"

Quote:
Does this mean you're not able to view IDI from a 'what if' perspective?
I didn't say that, HOTYH. I didn't say such. What it means is I'm trying to process this the way I know how. If you find me ignorant, please enlighten me.

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I believe I can view RDI from a what if:
You'll have to forgive me if I have my doubts about that.

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I suppose there would be murder with special circumstances, conspiracy to murder, sexual assault, accessory to murder, aggravated assault maybe.
How do you figure all that?

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Whats the big deal?
You're gonna have to explain that one, HOTYH. Because it sounds like you're saying a child's death is no big deal!

Quote:
What if SFF came to the US with the intention to kidnap and instead killed JBR, while making bizarre statements? Does it modify the crimes with statements like 'not the country that it serves' and 'not the only fat cat so don't think that killing will be difficult'.
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Maybe that is outside your area.
It is. And I'm not alone! Not by a DAMN sight!

Quote:
I guess your expertise lies in RDI-ese (as opposed to JBR-ese).
Boy, you've got nerve.

Tell you what, HOTYH; I could very easily get angry about a crack like that. But in the interest of fairness, I'm going to give you a chance to explain just what "RDI-ese" and JBR-ese" are, and what the difference is between them. I'm feeling generous today.
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  #930  
Old 03-25-2009, 12:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Holdontoyourhat View Post
Does that mean JBR's murder has been 'partially' solved?? We don't know who did it, but we know the RN author made all that stuff up?
... ... Yep.

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By what forensic techniques did the investigators arrive at this conclusion?
I think Tadpole answered that one quite well.

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I'll call it circumventive investigation. Thats where you go around what is most obvious for no valid reason.
Wrong on both counts. But call it what you like.
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  #931  
Old 03-25-2009, 08:16 PM
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If the only way you can look at the RN is from the standpoint that it is bogus, then you're handicapped when it comes discussing the case.

There has been no investigative finding that the RN is bogus. There is no proof. It is not a case fact. Nevertheless, it is consistenly referred to here as if it was a given.

Remember that we don't know who killed JBR. That person could be foreign. There has been no investigative finding that the killer is domestic at all. Why keep trumping it up as if there was?

Tell me, any RDI, who do you think is the top expert on what happened to JBR?
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  #932  
Old 03-25-2009, 10:54 PM
Tadpole12 Tadpole12 is offline
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Hi Hotyh.

Thanks for the wiki link, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extradi..._and_abduction

Good read ......that somehow led me to an entry on Ira Einhorn .... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ira_Einhorn
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  #933  
Old 03-25-2009, 11:16 PM
Tadpole12 Tadpole12 is offline
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Hey SD.

Thanks for your comments on the 'dailybeast' JR interview http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-a...-daughter/full re JR readings.
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  #934  
Old 03-26-2009, 12:08 AM
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If the only way you can look at the RN is from the standpoint that it is bogus - Hotyh ....

Hmmm, well the note exists ... so it was of purpose.

But if you ignore the note, eliminate it from consideration, ie if it is interpreted to be nonsensical / redundant.... if the sole focus was the physical crimes perpetrated against JBR .... then the 'intimate' nature of crime remains paramount.


hmmm .....

but the note did provide that extra time .... for extortion ..... at its minimum.

Inside Job:There wasn't a great window of opportunity for theft or extortion, pre Ramsey departure/flight. Just the time they were at the party (for a robery to be perpetrated), and that night ..... before the Ramsey early morn flight. Half a day? from the time they left for the White's party.



As far as socialistic terminology, vs pop culture references within the rn .... heck Star Trek: Next Gen, is chocked full of those themes.
Watched the BORG-Picard/ Locutus of Borg Episode this week.





also ...I've been wondering about the paper bags, 'the paper bag that held rope in John Andrews bedroom'..... leave a paper bag ... demand for a paper bag, Did IDI want the bag back. What kind of volume would $118k occupy, in a brown paper bag?


I think the last time I had a (non descript) paper bag in the house was in the eighties.
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  #935  
Old 03-26-2009, 10:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tadpole12 View Post
If the only way you can look at the RN is from the standpoint that it is bogus - Hotyh ....

Hmmm, well the note exists ... so it was of purpose.

But if you ignore the note, eliminate it from consideration, ie if it is interpreted to be nonsensical / redundant.... if the sole focus was the physical crimes perpetrated against JBR .... then the 'intimate' nature of crime remains paramount.


hmmm .....

but the note did provide that extra time .... for extortion ..... at its minimum.

Inside Job:There wasn't a great window of opportunity for theft or extortion, pre Ramsey departure/flight. Just the time they were at the party (for a robery to be perpetrated), and that night ..... before the Ramsey early morn flight. Half a day? from the time they left for the White's party.



As far as socialistic terminology, vs pop culture references within the rn .... heck Star Trek: Next Gen, is chocked full of those themes.
Watched the BORG-Picard/ Locutus of Borg Episode this week.





also ...I've been wondering about the paper bags, 'the paper bag that held rope in John Andrews bedroom'..... leave a paper bag ... demand for a paper bag, Did IDI want the bag back. What kind of volume would $118k occupy, in a brown paper bag?


I think the last time I had a (non descript) paper bag in the house was in the eighties.
I think we went over that years ago. If new bills, then it would be 8-9 inches? Hardly needing 'an adequate size attache'.

Why I think it wasn't an inside job? Not enough money was requested. That amount would probably be within just one credit line.

Agreeing with the 'intimate' motivation. Obviously nobody sexually assaults and murders a small child unless they're deeply mentally disturbed.

Unlike RDI, there's a lot I don't know.

I don't know that the original motive wasn't to kidnap JBR for money. I don't know if SBTC stands for something. I don't know if the SFF does not exist. I don't know if the SFF or the RN author are people we would not recognize. I don't know what happened to JBR, besides what is evident by her injuries. I don't know the circumstances for the pineapple, if any.

RDI has answers to all these questions, practically solving the whole crime, yet there are no arrests. Its considered a 'cold case'.
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  #936  
Old 03-26-2009, 11:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Holdontoyourhat View Post
If the only way you can look at the RN is from the standpoint that it is bogus, then you're handicapped when it comes discussing the case.
Speaking for myself, it's not the ONLY way. Just the primary one. Despite the common misperception, I do my best to keep an open mind.

Quote:
There has been no investigative finding that the RN is bogus.
None? Are you sure? Then what the he** were they doing down at Quantico all that time? Catching oysters?

Quote:
There is no proof. It is not a case fact. Nevertheless, it is consistenly referred to here as if it was a given.
You're point is made.

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Remember that we don't know who killed JBR.
Granted.

Quote:
That person could be foreign. There has been no investigative finding that the killer is domestic at all. Why keep trumping it up as if there was?
Why? How much time do you have?

Quote:
Unlike RDI, there's a lot I don't know.
Make no mistake, HOTYH: there's a LOT we're not sure of. Speaking for myself, I have a hard time deciding on what brought the whole thing about, just to give one example.

Quote:
I don't know that the original motive wasn't to kidnap JBR for money. I don't know if SBTC stands for something. I don't know if the SFF does not exist. I don't know if the SFF or the RN author are people we would not recognize. I don't know what happened to JBR, besides what is evident by her injuries. I don't know the circumstances for the pineapple, if any.
That's fine.

Quote:
RDI has answers to all these questions, practically solving the whole crime,
We TRY our best. Key word being "Try."

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yet there are no arrests.
Yeah, and I could go on at length as to why!

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Its considered a 'cold case'.
"Cold?" It's not cold, HOTYH; it's radioactive. And like radiation, it contaminates everything and everyone who comes into contact with it. Nobody wants anything to do with it, which, in MY OPINION, is why it went nowhere to start with.

Quote:
Tell me, any RDI, who do you think is the top expert on what happened to JBR?
I'll go first. I'll be brutally honest with you, HOTYH, that's a tough question. Very tough, in fact. But again, speaking purely for myself, I'd have to name Michael Kane.

Strictly out of curiosity, why do you ask?
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  #937  
Old 03-26-2009, 11:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Tadpole12 View Post
Hey SD.

Thanks for your comments on the 'dailybeast' JR interview http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-a...-daughter/full re JR readings.
My pleasure!
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  #938  
Old 03-26-2009, 11:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Holdontoyourhat View Post
I think we went over that years ago. If new bills, then it would be 8-9 inches? Hardly needing 'an adequate size attache'.

Why I think it wasn't an inside job? Not enough money was requested. That amount would probably be within just one credit line.

Agreeing with the 'intimate' motivation. Obviously nobody sexually assaults and murders a small child unless they're deeply mentally disturbed.

Unlike RDI, there's a lot I don't know.

I don't know that the original motive wasn't to kidnap JBR for money. I don't know if SBTC stands for something. I don't know if the SFF does not exist. I don't know if the SFF or the RN author are people we would not recognize. I don't know what happened to JBR, besides what is evident by her injuries. I don't know the circumstances for the pineapple, if any.

RDI has answers to all these questions, practically solving the whole crime, yet there are no arrests. Its considered a 'cold case'.
What do you make of the fact that the amount of the "ransom" was the exact amount of John's bonus for that year? How did the SFF know about THAT?

And you are forgetting that Patsy was NOT 100 percent excluded as being the author of the RN, she scored a 4.5 out of 5, with her own hired experts. 5 being totally cleared...100 percent did not write the RN.
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  #939  
Old 03-26-2009, 12:45 PM
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[quote=Ames;3509240]What do you make of the fact that the amount of the "ransom" was the exact amount of John's bonus for that year? How did the SFF know about THAT?

I know you guys have discussed this before so I hope I'm not being tedious but what sort of idiot would use the device of kidnapping - which depends for its efficacy on people's love for the victim - then not even test that love by asking for a significant sum of money from a known 'fat cat.' SFF would have to mean Stupid Foreign Faction, too. As you say, though, their intuition about John's bonus is extraordinary so we are looking for a (p)Sychic Foreign Faction too.
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  #940  
Old 03-26-2009, 07:18 PM
Holdontoyourhat Holdontoyourhat is offline
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[quote=Sophie;3509468]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ames View Post
What do you make of the fact that the amount of the "ransom" was the exact amount of John's bonus for that year? How did the SFF know about THAT?

I know you guys have discussed this before so I hope I'm not being tedious but what sort of idiot would use the device of kidnapping - which depends for its efficacy on people's love for the victim - then not even test that love by asking for a significant sum of money from a known 'fat cat.' SFF would have to mean Stupid Foreign Faction, too. As you say, though, their intuition about John's bonus is extraordinary so we are looking for a (p)Sychic Foreign Faction too.
LOL

Pretty soon it could mean Seniors' Foreign Faction
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  #941  
Old 03-26-2009, 07:33 PM
Holdontoyourhat Holdontoyourhat is offline
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I'll go first. I'll be brutally honest with you, HOTYH, that's a tough question. Very tough, in fact. But again, speaking purely for myself, I'd have to name Michael Kane.

Strictly out of curiosity, why do you ask?

In reality, the top expert on what happened to JBR is the RN author. That person not only knows of what happened to JBR, but also emoted on paper other stuff not related to kidnap for ransom.

We've used the ad hominem argument to disqualify the RN author as a liar because one aspect, the kidnap for ransom, seemed to us to be a lie after the fact, even though we don't even know what happened. Another aspect was how or why to believe anything written by a child murderer?

By your post, the flip of the switch that turned off the SFF component that was turned on by the top expert on this case was Quantico. Do you have some source for that?

OK I'll read some Michael Kane stuff.
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  #942  
Old 03-26-2009, 07:38 PM
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[quote=Holdontoyourhat;3510996]
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LOL

Pretty soon it could mean Seniors' Foreign Faction
I do believe that Sophie was just kidding.....she was being sarcastic.
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  #943  
Old 03-26-2009, 08:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Holdontoyourhat View Post
I think we went over that years ago. If new bills, then it would be 8-9 inches? Hardly needing 'an adequate size attache'.
Hi Hotyh.
TY for the reply. Ya, for sure the 'oldschool' JBR posters , like yourself, have covered this case from every angle, and covered a lot of ground, as well.
Cool. I was wondering about that paper bag angle, manageable size.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Holdontoyourhat View Post
Why I think it wasn't an inside job? Not enough money was requested. That amount would probably be within just one credit line.

Agreeing with the 'intimate' motivation. Obviously nobody sexually assaults and murders a small child unless they're deeply mentally disturbed.

Unlike RDI, there's a lot I don't know.

I don't know that the original motive wasn't to kidnap JBR for money. I don't know if SBTC stands for something. I don't know if the SFF does not exist. I don't know if the SFF or the RN author are people we would not recognize. I don't know what happened to JBR, besides what is evident by her injuries. I don't know the circumstances for the pineapple, if any.

RDI has answers to all these questions, practically solving the whole crime, yet there are no arrests. Its considered a 'cold case'.
Ya, I understand your perspective .... the IDI perspective ....from it all the unknowns have remained. Not many answers in 12 years, until the recent confirmation of that possibility.
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  #944  
Old 03-26-2009, 08:31 PM
Tadpole12 Tadpole12 is offline
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Originally Posted by Sophie View Post
What do you make of the fact that the amount of the "ransom" was the exact amount of John's bonus for that year? How did the SFF know about THAT?

I know you guys have discussed this before so I hope I'm not being tedious but what sort of idiot would use the device of kidnapping - which depends for its efficacy on people's love for the victim - then not even test that love by asking for a significant sum of money from a known 'fat cat.' SFF would have to mean Stupid Foreign Faction, too. As you say, though, their intuition about John's bonus is extraordinary so we are looking for a (p)Sychic Foreign Faction too.
Hi Sophie.

I had read somewhere, out there in cyberspace ... one of the IDI theories (IDI was in the house for hours before Ramseys returned from party scenario) .... it was 'explained' that the Ramsey's home was usually cluttered and messy ... and that JR's pay stubs may have been within sight ... his bonus of 118k being clearly marked on that pay info.

no link - just speculation.
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  #945  
Old 03-26-2009, 08:53 PM
DeeDee249 DeeDee249 is offline
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Hi Sophie.

I had read somewhere, out there in cyberspace ... one of the IDI theories (IDI was in the house for hours before Ramseys returned from party scenario) .... it was 'explained' that the Ramsey's home was usually cluttered and messy ... and that JR's pay stubs may have been within sight ... his bonus of 118k being clearly marked on that pay info.

no link - just speculation.
Wouldn't that be handy? Along with JBR's fave snack right there on the dining room table with (ONLY) her mother's prints on the bowl. His bonus wouldn't be on a pay stub. Someone looking at the pay stubs woukd have asked for quite a bit more money. I doubt they were thinking, well, let's just ask for the bonus, he can spare that. The bonus was mentioed for the express purpose of focusing suspicion on a business associate or employee of JR. Of course, they also mentioned an SFF, so they didn't know WHERE they wanted to deflect the blame, except to try to point away from themselves.
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  #946  
Old 03-26-2009, 09:05 PM
Tadpole12 Tadpole12 is offline
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Originally Posted by DeeDee249 View Post
Wouldn't that be handy? Along with JBR's fave snack right there on the dining room table with (ONLY) her mother's prints on the bowl. His bonus wouldn't be on a pay stub. Someone looking at the pay stubs woukd have asked for quite a bit more money. I doubt they were thinking, well, let's just ask for the bonus, he can spare that. The bonus was mentioed for the express purpose of focusing suspicion on a business associate or employee of JR. Of course, they also mentioned an SFF, so they didn't know WHERE they wanted to deflect the blame, except to try to point away from themselves.
Hi DeeDee.

Ya. I know.
Handy explanations.

The pay stub near the flashlight, on the kitchen counter.
The bowl the Ramsey's did not own, although one similar appeared in photo.
The bat in the yard.....
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  #947  
Old 03-27-2009, 01:13 AM
Tadpole12 Tadpole12 is offline
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Re:Michael Kane, link last updated 2001

http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill...imer3_pro.html

Hey. SD.

Who's aboard that slow train now?

Mary Keenan Lacy : Former DA

Stan Garnett: DA
Mark Beckner: Boulder Police Chief

The [multiagency] task force will include representatives from the FBI, Colorado Bureau of Investigation and Colorado Attorney General's Office.



"Beckner also said that a multiagency task force"..... http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/02/02/...ase/index.html







Lin Wood: attorney for JR

Last edited by Tadpole12; 03-27-2009 at 01:23 AM. Reason: add info
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  #948  
Old 03-27-2009, 09:09 AM
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Hi DeeDee.

Ya. I know.
Handy explanations.

The pay stub near the flashlight, on the kitchen counter.
The bowl the Ramsey's did not own, although one similar appeared in photo.
The bat in the yard.....
Actually, the bowl did belong to the Ramsey's. At first they denied it..and then..if you read the interviews..you will see that Patsy admits that it belongs to her. The bat in the yard belonged to Burke.
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Old 03-27-2009, 09:41 PM
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Actually, the bowl did belong to the Ramsey's. At first they denied it..and then..if you read the interviews..you will see that Patsy admits that it belongs to her. The bat in the yard belonged to Burke.
Lol. This whole case gets dumber and dumber with each demystified detail.
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  #950  
Old 03-27-2009, 10:32 PM
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Lol. This whole case gets dumber and dumber with each demystified detail.
Ain't that the truth! What is ridiculous, is the amount of IDI's that spew out things that they think are a fact...when they haven't even read any of the Ramsey's interviews. If they would just take the time to do that...it would cut down on most of the rumors. For example..the owner of the pineapple bowl, etc.
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