Haunting Evidence: JonBenet Ramsey

[Linda7NJ]

Originally Posted by CathyR

If he was the guilty party and does not have a psychopathic personality he might have alluded to it, not come right out with a confession but more like......

someone may have bullied him or said something he didn't like and he stated I wouldn't do that my sister tried that sh** and look at where she ended up.

Why does Melinda state her Dad never did anything to her, even spanking her. Nothing that would be considered abusive.

Are you saying John had a thing for JBR only. He became a molester later in life and it died when JBR did.

No, I didn't say that. I said it was POSSIBLE. It happens. Fathers sometimes pick ONE daughter to molest and leave the rest alone.

[SuperDave]

Originally Posted by CathyR

Why does Melinda state her Dad never did anything to her, even spanking her. Nothing that would be considered abusive.

Are you saying John had a thing for JBR only. He became a molester later in life and it died when JBR did.

This would fit the general idea of a situational molester. Just saying.

[DeeDee249]

Originally Posted by Linda7NJ

No, I didn't say that. I said it was POSSIBLE. It happens. Fathers sometimes pick ONE daughter to molest and leave the rest alone.

There was a big difference between JR's older daughters and JB. JB was sexualized in her dress, mannerisms and behavior. She was taught to be flirty, then Patsy goes and complains about the very thing she was coaching her daughter to do. What Patsy obviously didn't understand was that a 6-year old can't turn it on when she's on stage and turn it off in her everyday life. JB acted the way she was taught to act. She was dressed like a Vegas showgirl, and the look in her eye and her mannerisms on stage were anything BUT those of a normal little girl.
That's why she always WON.

[DeeDee249]

Originally Posted by CathyR

I will provide links as no where in her autopsy report does it say that. In fact it is measured to be 1x1 cm and it was damaged due to the assault but not torn.

http://zyberzoom.com/JBRAutopsy.html


My Bold.

On the anterior aspect of the perineum, along the edges of closure of the labia majora, is a small amount of dried blood. A similar small amount of dried and semifluid blood is present on the skin of the fourchette and in the vestibule. Inside the vestibule of the vagina and along the distal vaginal wall is reddish hyperemia. This hyperemia is circumferential and perhaps more noticeable on the right side and posteriorly. The hyperemia also appears to extend just inside the vaginal orifice. A 1 cm red-purple area of abrasion is located on the right posterolateral area of the 1 x 1 cm hymeneal orifice. tThe hymen itself is represented by a rim of mucosal tissue extending clockwise between the 2 and 10:00 positions. The area of abrasion is present at approximately the 7:00 position and appears to involve the hymen and distal right lateral vaginal wall and possibly the area anterior to he hymen. On the right labia majora is a very faint area of violent discoloration measuring approximately one inch by three-eighths of an inch. Incision into the underlying subcutaneous tissue discloses no hemorrhage. A minimal amount of semiliquid thin watery red fluid is present in the vaginal vault. No recent or remote anal or other perineal trauma is identified.

That is EXACTLY the description that PROVES the hymen was NOT intact. An abraded or eroded hymen is NOT intact. It doesn't have to be torn. JB's hymen was not a normal finding in a child.

[claudicici]

what says it all to me is 1x1cm hymeneal orifice,how can that happen that one time???
that's the size of a grown woman starting to dilate about to give birth!
what's the regular size for a 6 year old? A few millimeters? I can't imagine it to be more...

[madeleine]

Originally Posted by CathyR

Why does Melinda state her Dad never did anything to her, even spanking her. Nothing that would be considered abusive.

Are you saying John had a thing for JBR only. He became a molester later in life and it died when JBR did.

Dunno.What I am sure of though is that Beths death changed him.A lot.And his wife's disease probably changed him as well.This doesn't make him a molester,of course not.It's the big picture that gives me creeps.The way they react to the "news"(prior abuse),they say no way instead of oh my God,let's see who had access to our child.

[claudicici]

....plus even if her Dad really did abuse her ,do you really think she would come out and state that?
I still think Beths' pictures in the bathroom are VERY creepy....

[21merc7]

Originally Posted by claudicici

what says it all to me is 1x1cm hymeneal orifice,how can that happen that one time???
that's the size of a grown woman starting to dilate about to give birth!
what's the regular size for a 6 year old? A few millimeters? I can't imagine it to be more...

From SuperDave's post, number 223:

Okay, for you regular people, that means that JonBenet's hymen was scratched. It has been established that her vagina was violated the night of her death. But the "1x1 cm hymeneal orifice" is the bell-ringer here. That means that the opening in JonBenet's six-year-old hymen was one centimeter by one centimeter. This is twice the size of a so-called normal hymeneal opening for a girl this age. In a September 1999 study for the Medical Journal Family Medicine titled "Genital Findings in Prepubertal Girls Evaluated for Sexual Abuse: A Different Perspective on Hymeneal Measurements," Dr. Perry Pugno said:

"Girls with no definitive signs of genital trauma exhibited a mean transhymenal diameter of 2.3 mm and in general showed an increase of approximately 1 mm per year of age. Girls with definitive signs of genital trauma exhibited a mean transhymenal diameter of 9.0 mm and no significant variance with age. Correcting for age differences, the transhymenal diameter was highly significant as a differentiating factor (F=1079, P<.001). When compared against the criterion standard, the transhymenal measurement is 99% specific and 79% sensitive as a screening tool."

These findings imply an "expected" hymeneal opening size of 6 mm for someone JonBenet's age; her actual opening size, 1 cm, placed her in the mid-range of sizes observed in this study among six-year olds known to have been abused. In fact, hymeneal sizes alone are not enough to say with any degree of certainty that JonBenet was the victim of long-term sexual abuse, but the autopsy report shows more than just hymeneal damage.

[madeleine]

Originally Posted by claudicici

....plus even if her Dad really did abuse her ,do you really think she would come out and state that?
I still think Beths' pictures in the bathroom are VERY creepy....

I thought that too at first but then I changed my mind and realized he did love her VERY VERY much,no doubt about that whatsoever (and NO I don't mean anything sexual about it,no way).And this is what makes me think he pretty much died as well with her.People who are hurt very badly can do crazy things.They don't care anymore,not about themselves,about loved ones,they change emotionally.
And there's another thing....TOO much love.Isn't harrassment and stalking also a form (sick one) of LOVE?That line is so thin sometimes.Haven't you heard so many dads say I did it outta too much love,I couldn't control my feelings anymore.
Dunno.....he lost one daughter,was close to losing his wife...maybe he IS that religious and thought.....in heaven we'll be together,they are all gonna be MINE again and nothing can tear us appart.Remember what he said,she's safe now in a better place?(waiting for him and PR?)

[madeleine]

http://www.pathguy.com/abuse.htm

Proposed Classification of Anogenital Findings in Children (1994)


Normal: Class I


Nonspecific findings (Class II).

Suspicious for abuse (Class 3)

Suggestive of Abuse / Penetration (Class 4)

Clear Evidence of Penetrating Injury (Class 5)


Jonbenet is here under nr .5

Note 3: The anterior hymenal rim may be very slim or absent as a normal variant; this was the case with JonBenet Ramsey and the pathologist recognized it as normal.

[madeleine]

Also.....

Class 4. Definite evidence of abuse or sexual contact


Finding of sperm or seminal fluid in or on a child's body

Witnesed episdoe of sexual molestation. This also appplies to cases where pronographic photographs or videotapes are acquired as evidence

Nonaccidental, blunt penetrating injury to the vaginal or anal orifice

Positive, confirmed cultures for Neisseria gonorrhoeae in a prepubertal child, or serologic confirmation of acquired syphilis

[madeleine]

Madeleine is taking anatomy lessons.

from the autopsy report:

A similar small amount of dried and semifluid blood is present on the skin of the fourchette and in the vestibule.

--------------------

In female human anatomy, the frenulum labiorum pudendi (aka the fourchette or the posterior commissure of the labia minora) is a frenulum where the labia minora meet posteriorly.

(now I understand why they suspected DIGITAl penetration,it's more likely to hurt that spot that way,the finger is flexible and can reach it,harder with an object or with the...you know,look where it's located it will make sense)

The fourchette may be torn during delivery due to the sudden stretching of the vulval orifice, or during intercourse.The fourchette may also be torn in acts of violence wherein forced entry occurs such as rape. When the fourchette gets torn the bleeding which ensues sometimes requires surgical suturing for containment.

Wikipedia (Thumbnails)

Wikipedia (Thumbnails)
Wikipedia (Thumbnails)

But just read the report.It wasn't just playing,she was hurt pretty bad even if she wasn't raped.



On the anterior aspect of the perineum, along the edges of closure of the labia majora, is a small amount of dried blood. A similar small amount of dried and semifluid blood is present on the skin of the fourchette and in the vestibule. Inside the vestibule of the vagina and along the distal vaginal wall is reddish hyperemia. This hyperemia is circumferential and perhaps more noticeable on the right side and posteriorly. The hyperemia also appears to extend just inside the vaginal orifice. A 1 cm red-purple area of abrasion is located on the right posterolateral area of the 1 x 1 cm hymeneal orifice. The hymen itself is represented by a rim of mucosal tissue extending clockwise between the 2 and 10:00 positions. The area of abrasion is present at approximately the 7:00 position and appears to involve the hymen and distal right lateral vaginal wall and possibly the area anterior to the hymen. On the right labia majora is a very faint area of violent discoloration measuring approximately one inch by three-eighths of an inch. Incision into the underlying subcutaneous tissue discloses no hemorrhage. A minimal amount of semiliquid thin watery red fluid is present in the vaginal vault. No recent or remote anal or other perineal trauma is identified

[DeeDee249]

I don't recall where the coroner said that the absence of most of JB's hymen was normal. Got a link for that?

[CathyR]

Originally Posted by 21merc7

From SuperDave's post, number 223:

Okay, for you regular people, that means that JonBenet's hymen was scratched. It has been established that her vagina was violated the night of her death. But the "1x1 cm hymeneal orifice" is the bell-ringer here. That means that the opening in JonBenet's six-year-old hymen was one centimeter by one centimeter. This is twice the size of a so-called normal hymeneal opening for a girl this age. In a September 1999 study for the Medical Journal Family Medicine titled "Genital Findings in Prepubertal Girls Evaluated for Sexual Abuse: A Different Perspective on Hymeneal Measurements," Dr. Perry Pugno said:

"Girls with no definitive signs of genital trauma exhibited a mean transhymenal diameter of 2.3 mm and in general showed an increase of approximately 1 mm per year of age. Girls with definitive signs of genital trauma exhibited a mean transhymenal diameter of 9.0 mm and no significant variance with age. Correcting for age differences, the transhymenal diameter was highly significant as a differentiating factor (F=1079, P<.001). When compared against the criterion standard, the transhymenal measurement is 99% specific and 79% sensitive as a screening tool."

These findings imply an "expected" hymeneal opening size of 6 mm for someone JonBenet's age; her actual opening size, 1 cm, placed her in the mid-range of sizes observed in this study among six-year olds known to have been abused. In fact, hymeneal sizes alone are not enough to say with any degree of certainty that JonBenet was the victim of long-term sexual abuse, but the autopsy report shows more than just hymeneal damage.

All the damage caused by the trauma of the sexual assault is what I call the worst of it. Didn't some of that trauma also involve the Hyman?
But at a different location than the healing area?
The evidence pointing to prior abuse ( the things that were healing) is that the reason why that her hymen is small. It is described as erosion and the fact that certain blood cells present show it was healing. What is the time frame of healing when could this initial abuse have occurred. Or at least the time she was injured from abuse and the time she was killed.


It was Christmas she was out of school, for how long?

What is the time frame between the two incidents.



The news reaction by the R's of prior abuse is normal. Denial comes first, no one wants their child to have been abused. Just like in coping with death.


You have convinced me there is some compelling proof of prior abuse.

Now how do you tie it to the R's?

No one has but forth a theory where it is JR and BR ,or PR and BR ,that do the staging. Maybe they have but I haven't read it.

The other parent vouches for, sincerely, the mate as they believe them to have been in bed with them all night.

It also explains why the staging would be so over the top as a child and an adult came up with the staging.

I have been considering the viewpoint that parents would cover up for a child and it seems that one of them would be more highly motivated to do this than the other. I just don't see both parents not being mad at Burke enough to say no let him take his punishment or I'm not taking a chance of getting caught and looking guilty myself. I don't see them both willing to give up everything including going to jail for Burke. If he did it then both parents covered for him both parents could go to jail for the attempt of hiding it. They have no idea what trace evidence the police are going to be able to find that they can't wipe away, etc. What if DNA belonging to Burke did come back and in a place he can't explain away innocently. Fibers from his clothes, etc. One of them is going to be more doubtful that the plan will work than the other.

[DeeDee249]

Neither parent would have gone to jail in the People's Republic of Boulder, where nothing anybody does is ever their fault.
BR was under 10- by Colorado law, he couldn't even be NAMED in association with a crime, even the death of his sister. Had LE been aware that the parents were covering for their son, because of Colorado law, a person can't be arrested there for being an accessory to murder if no one was arrested for the murder.
Tampering with evidence would probably be the worst they'd have faced, but a judge may very well have barred them from being arrested for that if the killer they covered for was under 10.
Whether the Rs were aware of all of this is debatable, but I'd file this under "information gotten in a late-night call to a lawyer friend".

[UKGuy]

Originally Posted by CathyR

All the damage caused by the trauma of the sexual assault is what I call the worst of it. Didn't some of that trauma also involve the Hyman?
But at a different location than the healing area?
The evidence pointing to prior abuse ( the things that were healing) is that the reason why that her hymen is small. It is described as erosion and the fact that certain blood cells present show it was healing. What is the time frame of healing when could this initial abuse have occurred. Or at least the time she was injured from abuse and the time she was killed.


It was Christmas she was out of school, for how long?

What is the time frame between the two incidents.



The news reaction by the R's of prior abuse is normal. Denial comes first, no one wants their child to have been abused. Just like in coping with death.


You have convinced me there is some compelling proof of prior abuse.

Now how do you tie it to the R's?

No one has but forth a theory where it is JR and BR ,or PR and BR ,that do the staging. Maybe they have but I haven't read it.

The other parent vouches for, sincerely, the mate as they believe them to have been in bed with them all night.

It also explains why the staging would be so over the top as a child and an adult came up with the staging.

I have been considering the viewpoint that parents would cover up for a child and it seems that one of them would be more highly motivated to do this than the other. I just don't see both parents not being mad at Burke enough to say no let him take his punishment or I'm not taking a chance of getting caught and looking guilty myself. I don't see them both willing to give up everything including going to jail for Burke. If he did it then both parents covered for him both parents could go to jail for the attempt of hiding it. They have no idea what trace evidence the police are going to be able to find that they can't wipe away, etc. What if DNA belonging to Burke did come back and in a place he can't explain away innocently. Fibers from his clothes, etc. One of them is going to be more doubtful that the plan will work than the other.

CathyR,

No one has but forth a theory where it is JR and BR ,or PR and BR ,that do the staging. Maybe they have but I haven't read it.

Its part of my theory that there was not simply one staging but multiple stagings. Formerly the fly in the ointment was the barbie nightgown, people suggested it arrived accidently in the wine-cellar, that has been resolved since it is blood-stained and covered a barbie-doll, neither of these factors can be argued as accidental.

There is clear forensic evidence that both John and Patsy were involved in the staging, and to date little or none implicating Burke.

So one scenario is Patsy kills JonBenet, then stages her death, followed by John restaging certain features to minimize the focus falling on him?

Alternately Burke kills JonBenet , Patsy stages some scenario, with John again tailoring it to suit his agenda.

Or regardless of who killed JonBenet all three are involved to some extent in the staging, even if Burke is only moving non-crime-scene objects around and keeping silent on critical issues.

The scenario that shocks most people is that of John killing JonBenet staging some crime-scene then Patsy assisting with a revised crime-scene e.g. the wine-cellar by adding the ligature etc.

Lets put it another way: JonBenet was not simply killed in the corridor of the basement then dumped in the wine-cellar!

.

[CathyR]

UK Guy

What evidence that both of them were involved in the staging.

I know the RN looks like Patsy's but I hate to admit this---one of my sons could mimic my handwriting very well. He had started practicing when he was still in elementary and by the time he was in Jr High he could and did write some excuse notes. The notes didn't get him caught but a conversation with a teacher did. Burke might be able to mimic Patsy's handwriting, could explain why experts say close but not a match.

Were practice notes found?

I have read somewhere that a "rough draft" was found by police. I don't see an adult leaving that around to be discovered. They had a fireplace and paper burns easily and can then be flushed leaving nothing of, at least enough paper residue that it could be explained as being used to light the fireplace. A complete burned page would raise an eyebrow and might get collected as evidence.

I don't see the R's favoring JBR over Burke. She does have baby of the family status but he obviously isn't lacking in outside activities, his folks get him a gaming system that was near impossible to find, he played with his dad with this system.

His sister didn't like her big gift the Twin Doll and if he is so competitive, that would have been pleasing to him as he loved his gift. He would feel like the favored child in that instance.

My kids didn't hit each other with golf clubs but they did become violent with each other, throwing things, slamming each other against walls but they were older and teen-aged when violence was at worst. Sex order was reversed in my family with sister being the oldest and a son being the baby of the family. Fights involving a sister and a brother were the most violent in our house. Sister could hold her own and boys had to be rescued from her. The violence was gradual in increasing the intensity. It did start about the time the sister turned 10 and boys were 8 and 6. Youngest and oldest had an alliance against middle child. The family dichotomy was different as there are only 2 close to same age.

[UKGuy]

Originally Posted by CathyR

UK Guy

What evidence that both of them were involved in the staging.

I know the RN looks like Patsy's but I hate to admit this---one of my sons could mimic my handwriting very well. He had started practicing when he was still in elementary and by the time he was in Jr High he could and did write some excuse notes. The notes didn't get him caught but a conversation with a teacher did. Burke might be able to mimic Patsy's handwriting, could explain why experts say close but not a match.

Were practice notes found?

I have read somewhere that a "rough draft" was found by police. I don't see an adult leaving that around to be discovered. They had a fireplace and paper burns easily and can then be flushed leaving nothing of, at least enough paper residue that it could be explained as being used to light the fireplace. A complete burned page would raise an eyebrow and might get collected as evidence.

I don't see the R's favoring JBR over Burke. She does have baby of the family status but he obviously isn't lacking in outside activities, his folks get him a gaming system that was near impossible to find, he played with his dad with this system.

His sister didn't like her big gift the Twin Doll and if he is so competitive, that would have been pleasing to him as he loved his gift. He would feel like the favored child in that instance.

My kids didn't hit each other with golf clubs but they did become violent with each other, throwing things, slamming each other against walls but they were older and teen-aged when violence was at worst. Sex order was reversed in my family with sister being the oldest and a son being the baby of the family. Fights involving a sister and a brother were the most violent in our house. Sister could hold her own and boys had to be rescued from her. The violence was gradual in increasing the intensity. It did start about the time the sister turned 10 and boys were 8 and 6. Youngest and oldest had an alliance against middle child. The family dichotomy was different as there are only 2 close to same age.

CathyR,
There is a laundry list of evidence. I ignore some evidence such as the ransom note since its purpose is entirely diversionary e.g. it it not part of the original crime-scene.

We have the paint-tray:

Patsy's Atlanta 2000 Interview, excerpt.

13 Q. (By Mr. Levin) Now, Mrs. Ramsey,
14 you -- are you aware, I should say, that
15 your paint kit was found very close to the
16 wine cellar door?
17 A. I have heard that.
18 Q. Did you recall at any time that
19 you were shown photographs in that regard?
20 A. No.
21 Q. We have found, and I want you to
22 help us, maybe you can offer an explanation
23 for this. We have found fibers in the paint
24 tray that appear to come off of the coat in
25 the photograph we showed you.
0184
1 A. In the paint tray?
2 Q. Yes.
3 A. What's a paint --

Also Patsy's fibers are embedded into the ligature that was tied around JonBenet's neck, her fibers were found on the underside of the duct-tape that had been placed over JonBenet's lips. All this despite Patsy stating she had not been in the wine-cellar the previous night at all!

Patsy's Atlanta 2000 Interview, excerpt.

3 MR. LEVIN: I think that is
4 probably fair. Based on the state of the
5 art scientific testing, we believe the fibers
6 from her jacket were found in the paint
7 tray, were found tied into the ligature found
8 on JonBenet's neck, were found on the blanket
9 that she is wrapped in, were found on the
10 duct tape that is found on the mouth, and
11 the question is, can she explain to us how
12 those fibers appeared in those places that
13 are associated with her daughter's death.
14 And I understand you are not going to answer
15 those.
16 MR. WOOD: Right. Not, not

Fibers from Johns Israeli manufactured shirt were found on JonBenet's genitalia, remember the Coroner cited evidence for someone wiping JonBnet down.

Patsy's Atlanta 2000 Interview, excerpt.

10 In addition to those questions,
11 there are some others that I would like you
12 to think about whether or not we can have
13 Mrs. Ramsey perhaps in the future answer. I
14 understand you are advising her not to today,
15 and those are there are [b]black fibers that,
16 according to our testing that was conducted,
17 that match one of the two shirts that was
18 provided to us by the Ramseys, black shirt.
19 Those are located in the
20 underpants of JonBenet Ramsey, were found in
21 her crotch area, and I believe those are two
22 other areas that we have intended to ask
23 Mrs. Ramsey about if she could help us in
24 explaining their presence in those locations.
25 MR. WOOD: And again, you state

http://www.acandyrose.com/01301997warrant.htm

Det. Arndt informed Your Affiant that Dr. Meyer stated to her that he observed red stains in the crotch area of the panties that the child was wearing at the time that the child's body was subjected to the external visual examination. Dr. Meyer stated to Det. Arndt that the red stain appeared to be consistent with blood. Det. Arndt further informed Your Affiant that Dr. Meyer stated to her that after examining the panties (as described above), he observed the exterior pubic area of the child's body located next to the areas of the panties containing the red stains and found no visible reddish stains in the area. Dr. Meyer stated to Det. Arndt that his opinion is that the evidence observed is consistent with the child's public area having been wiped by a cloth.

The latter are items that link the parents directly with the crime-scene, whether you interpret them as reliable or relevant is for you to decide.

.

[SuperDave]

Originally Posted by CathyR

All the damage caused by the trauma of the sexual assault is what I call the worst of it. Didn't some of that trauma also involve the Hyman?

Some. And it was the worst of it, but even then, it slants RDI. If RDI, it was the worst because it had to be. It doesn't make sense, IDI-wise, since the damage would have been MUCH worse than it was. It's as if someone took a blind shot.

But at a different location than the healing area?

Possibly.

The evidence pointing to prior abuse ( the things that were healing) is that the reason why that her hymen is small. It is described as erosion and the fact that certain blood cells present show it was healing.

Some of her vaginal wall had been eroded too.

What is the time frame of healing when could this initial abuse have occurred.

I've heard estimates anywhere from three to ten days. More accurately, Dr. McCann said that he could only go back ten days, but it could have been much longer.

It was Christmas she was out of school, for how long?

Most places I know, kids are out of school for Christmas break from the 22nd to January 2nd.

You have convinced me there is some compelling proof of prior abuse.

Now how do you tie it to the R's?

That's the hard part, CathyR. For me, it's sort of a "gut" thing, you know?

[joeskidbeck]

That's the hard part, CathyR. For me, it's sort of a "gut" thing, you know? -SuperDave

Dave, my gut feeling tells me that a Ramsey family member would be the only person(s) they would cover for. They were covering for someone, else there would not have been the need for staging. So, if there was prior molestation, it would have had to have been someone that both Patsy and John would cover for. For some reason, this makes me think it wasn't JAR or DP. Know what I mean?

[DeeDee249]

There was at least one practice note that began "Mr. & Mrs. Ramsey..." The handwriting of the practice note matched the ransom note. Patsy's sister (I believe it was her) admitted that the practice note WAS written by Patsy but she said it was the beginning of a party invitation. LE never pushed to know why she would say the practice note was written by Patsy, yet not the ransom note, when the handwriting was the same.
There were also several missing pages that had been ripped out of the pad between that practice note and the RN.

[SuperDave]

Originally Posted by joeskidbeck

That's the hard part, CathyR. For me, it's sort of a "gut" thing, you know? -SuperDave

Dave, my gut feeling tells me that a Ramsey family member would be the only person(s) they would cover for. They were covering for someone, else there would not have been the need for staging. So, if there was prior molestation, it would have had to have been someone that both Patsy and John would cover for. For some reason, this makes me think it wasn't JAR or DP. Know what I mean?

I get you all right.

[KoldKase]

Originally Posted by tragco

No, it isn't and I really wish it was. FFJ was established so long ago and its a way for a really tight-knit group who have been around forever and know everything to discuss the case.

I didn't feel right joining. I felt like I would be barging in without an invite. I just want to view that case library.. maybe someone could make it public, maybe there are good reasons it's private.

Oh, I wouldn't worry about any "barging in" causing any fallout, as I don't think we're all that picky. I think the issue right now about adding new members is that the mods are few and nobody has the time to monitor the forum that much. FFJ got targeted by trolls a lot when it first opened because of a lot of bad blood between members of other forums. In fact, that's why it was opened. Then there were the IDIs who came in meaning to cause trouble. We were probably too sensitive, too, by then, but at some point, you just want to discuss the case and not waste time fighting over insults. With a larger forum, that's just not possible, no matter how much people try to behave--and I'm as bad as anyone when I get worked up, I admit.

I talked to the admin at FFJ and she says the forum case library should be open to the public, including case transcripts and photos we've put up recently. I've logged out of FFJ and I can see them fine.

Would y'all try it and see if you can, too? We'd like for that to be public:

Ramsey Murder Case Library - Forums For Justice

Ramsey Murder Case Library - Forums For Justice

[joeskidbeck]

Thanks, KK. I went over and can see the photos and other evidence just fine. Also got a question from this forum answered. There is a photo there of the tape that was removed from JB's mouth and there was some question here yesterday about a photo being the same tape. According to FFJ, it is the same tape. John not remembering the tape is just another case of Ramnesia.

[Agatha_C]

Originally Posted by joeskidbeck

Thanks, KK. I went over and can see the photos and other evidence just fine. Also got a question from this forum answered. There is a photo there of the tape that was removed from JB's mouth and there was some question here yesterday about a photo being the same tape. According to FFJ, it is the same tape. John not remembering the tape is just another case of Ramnesia.

Since someone took the survey and brought the thread to the front of the line, I thought to add a link to the picture of the tape on FFJ...

Miscellaneous - Forums For Justice

Miscellaneous - Forums For Justice